Steering wheel shakes while breaking
09-25-2007, 07:55 PM
#41
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny Arizona
Posts: 72
Please expound on your comments, and also provice references. I am curious to know where your info comes from. I am serious. I worked for General Motors in Arizona for 6 years at the Desert Proving Grounds as a brake technician and tester, building and testing brake systems and testing different brake pad compounds, as well working at the Nissan proving grounds in Maricopa, Arizona for 2 years, and never once heard of material tansfer causing brake pedals to pulsate when applied.
I dont see the need to trash someone for a post, whether you feel you know more than that person or not. I thought that respect was something that was given to fellow Maxima enthusiests, and that if you disagree with a post you would give some respect, disagree and then provide legit information on why you disagree. Send me a PM and tell me why you feel what I contributed was inaccurate, and then post for everyone's benefit.
Just a suggestion, but hey, I only have a fraction of the posts you have, so maybe that makes you the expert. I like to read forums to learn and to help as well, and maybe we could all be a little less critical and work to help others solve their Maxima problems.
I dont see the need to trash someone for a post, whether you feel you know more than that person or not. I thought that respect was something that was given to fellow Maxima enthusiests, and that if you disagree with a post you would give some respect, disagree and then provide legit information on why you disagree. Send me a PM and tell me why you feel what I contributed was inaccurate, and then post for everyone's benefit.
Just a suggestion, but hey, I only have a fraction of the posts you have, so maybe that makes you the expert. I like to read forums to learn and to help as well, and maybe we could all be a little less critical and work to help others solve their Maxima problems.
09-25-2007, 08:36 PM
#42
You may think it warps because it gets hot but no that's not the reason. You may be a pro at Brakes, I wouldn't doubt that. But many a 5th gen owner have vouched that the material transfer problem is the reason for shaking. We would know, we've been here pretty long.
Please expound on your comments, and also provice references. I am curious to know where your info comes from. I am serious. I worked for General Motors in Arizona for 6 years at the Desert Proving Grounds as a brake technician and tester, building and testing brake systems and testing different brake pad compounds, as well working at the Nissan proving grounds in Maricopa, Arizona for 2 years, and never once heard of material tansfer causing brake pedals to pulsate when applied.
I dont see the need to trash someone for a post, whether you feel you know more than that person or not. I thought that respect was something that was given to fellow Maxima enthusiests, and that if you disagree with a post you would give some respect, disagree and then provide legit information on why you disagree. Send me a PM and tell me why you feel what I contributed was inaccurate, and then post for everyone's benefit.
Just a suggestion, but hey, I only have a fraction of the posts you have, so maybe that makes you the expert. I like to read forums to learn and to help as well, and maybe we could all be a little less critical and work to help others solve their Maxima problems.
I dont see the need to trash someone for a post, whether you feel you know more than that person or not. I thought that respect was something that was given to fellow Maxima enthusiests, and that if you disagree with a post you would give some respect, disagree and then provide legit information on why you disagree. Send me a PM and tell me why you feel what I contributed was inaccurate, and then post for everyone's benefit.
Just a suggestion, but hey, I only have a fraction of the posts you have, so maybe that makes you the expert. I like to read forums to learn and to help as well, and maybe we could all be a little less critical and work to help others solve their Maxima problems.
09-25-2007, 08:55 PM
#43
like i said...it has been proven that the problem on 5th gen maximas is caused by material transfer.
yes rotors do wear...but the build up causes the rotors to wear unevenly. do the rotors eventually warp? yes, but the warping is made worse by material transfer.
you change to better pads...doesnt happen
at the testing grounds, do you test the same car and pads for over 10K miles? the information that im posting is based on longterm use in daily driving...not a few hours of braking at a proving ground.
yes rotors do wear...but the build up causes the rotors to wear unevenly. do the rotors eventually warp? yes, but the warping is made worse by material transfer.
you change to better pads...doesnt happen
at the testing grounds, do you test the same car and pads for over 10K miles? the information that im posting is based on longterm use in daily driving...not a few hours of braking at a proving ground.
Last edited by SoonerFan; 09-25-2007 at 09:00 PM.
09-25-2007, 09:15 PM
#44
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
I think it was Josh (I think, been a long time) who pulled his rotors that were run on OEM pads and let them sit for a few days and could literally tap off the transferred material with a hammer...
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
09-25-2007, 10:01 PM
#45
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sunny Arizona
Posts: 72
You know, if you saw it once then it must be right, and my experience doesn't mean anything. You haven't provided anything else that helps me see what you are talking about. I asked you to help me understand what you were talking about, but I guess that won't happen. I'm done.
I think it was Josh (I think, been a long time) who pulled his rotors that were run on OEM pads and let them sit for a few days and could literally tap off the transferred material with a hammer...
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
09-25-2007, 10:07 PM
#46
You know, if you saw it once then it must be right, and my experience doesn't mean anything. You haven't provided anything else that helps me see what you are talking about. I asked you to help me understand what you were talking about, but I guess that won't happen. I'm done.
we havent seen it once...we have seen it on hundreds of cars on here.
i know for a FACT..that changing my pads prevented my rotors from warping.
dude, its a well known and proven fact that our rotor "warp" due to material transfer from OEM pads. the rotors get hot and the inferior material transfers.
i changed my rotors to OEM replacement with Hawk pads...they have around 5K miles on them (including auto-x). there has been no warping and the rotors havent warn unevenly. that proves that the pads were the problem.
i know what im talking about.
i changed my rotors to OEM replacement with Hawk pads...they have around 5K miles on them (including auto-x). there has been no warping and the rotors havent warn unevenly. that proves that the pads were the problem.
i know what im talking about.
like i said...it has been proven that the problem on 5th gen maximas is caused by material transfer.
yes rotors do wear...but the build up causes the rotors to wear unevenly. do the rotors eventually warp? yes, but the warping is made worse by material transfer.
you change to better pads...doesnt happen
at the testing grounds, do you test the same car and pads for over 10K miles? the information that im posting is based on longterm use in daily driving...not a few hours of braking at a proving ground.
yes rotors do wear...but the build up causes the rotors to wear unevenly. do the rotors eventually warp? yes, but the warping is made worse by material transfer.
you change to better pads...doesnt happen
at the testing grounds, do you test the same car and pads for over 10K miles? the information that im posting is based on longterm use in daily driving...not a few hours of braking at a proving ground.
Last edited by SoonerFan; 09-25-2007 at 10:13 PM.
09-25-2007, 10:09 PM
#47
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
You know, if you saw it once then it must be right, and my experience doesn't mean anything. You haven't provided anything else that helps me see what you are talking about. I asked you to help me understand what you were talking about, but I guess that won't happen. I'm done.
I know plenty of people that have been doing a job for a long time and still know nothing.
09-26-2007, 10:08 AM
#54
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
sooner, after your explanation of alternator testing and subsequent flames, id question anything technical you type
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
09-26-2007, 10:11 AM
#55
sooner, after your explanation of alternator testing and subsequent flames, id question anything technical you type
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
i have proved myself on this forum and dont need to prove myself to you.
i still disagree with the alternator discussion you claim to have won.
no there isnt a TSB for the problem. there also isnt one for 3.5s burning oil...guess that means it doesnt happen
Last edited by SoonerFan; 09-26-2007 at 10:27 AM.
09-26-2007, 10:16 AM
#56
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
sooner, after your explanation of alternator testing and subsequent flames, id question anything technical you type
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
all those articles ive read (including the stoptech 1) refer more to racing brakes since the operate at a much higher temperature
the transfer layer is supposed to be there
when you dont properly "Bed in" your brakes you get uneven transfer
so if you change your rotor and go right out and start beating on them you will get uneven transfer
i havnt found a single article or tsb about maxima brake pad material transfer issues
can some1 link me id like to see it
warped rotors are caused by hard braking and rapid heating and cooling from my experience
aand i have heard going to the carwash too often can warp rotors (since you have to drive there they are hot when you get there)
I think it was Josh (I think, been a long time) who pulled his rotors that were run on OEM pads and let them sit for a few days and could literally tap off the transferred material with a hammer...
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
If it was heat and rotors actually warping and causing the problem, then why does swapping to different pads make it all better? Especially with pads that probably generate more heat?
If heat and the rotors were the problem, people would have this problem when they run Hawk HPS pads and stock rotors, but, they don’t.
You are the one with a hole in the theory, not us. We don’t need testing grounds and brake experts to figure out, when you change the pads, the problem goes away. Wow, guess that means the pads are the problem, not the rotors. If heat was the culprit, the more aggressive Hawk pads should only make the problem worse, not get rid of it.
You might have a hard time because you can't seem to read.
09-26-2007, 10:18 AM
#57
my posts are from personal experience...experience with the problem on here...and working with josh. im waiting for him to post since he has become the brake expert.
i dont think its a coincidence that all posts about "warped" rotors are people with stock pads. NOBODY with aftermarket pads has ever had the problem
i dont think its a coincidence that all posts about "warped" rotors are people with stock pads. NOBODY with aftermarket pads has ever had the problem
Last edited by SoonerFan; 09-26-2007 at 10:29 AM.
09-26-2007, 10:26 AM
#58
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
Same here... I would average 6 months on stock brakes before I had to have them serviced. 
ONE emergency stop, and they were toast.
Two weeks after I got all new OEM brakes put on, I had to make an emergency stop on the highway (75-0) and halfway through the stop they started to shake and shudder all over the road and it never went away.
As soon as I changed to Hawk HPS pads, my brakes have been perfect. I brake more aggressive than before (I don't have to worry about killing my brakes) and they are over a year old with zero problems.
ONE emergency stop, and they were toast.
Two weeks after I got all new OEM brakes put on, I had to make an emergency stop on the highway (75-0) and halfway through the stop they started to shake and shudder all over the road and it never went away.
As soon as I changed to Hawk HPS pads, my brakes have been perfect. I brake more aggressive than before (I don't have to worry about killing my brakes) and they are over a year old with zero problems.
09-26-2007, 10:32 AM
#59
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2
So, I don't get it. Who got schooled? Where's the TSB? You do know that certain brake compounds dissipate heat at a different rate, right? Could this be why your aftermarket pads display signs of heat damage differently? Have you examined material on your rotors to prove that this is pad residue or material? Where's the proof? I find it funny how much information is NOT available on brake material transfer. Must be a new issue...
09-26-2007, 10:38 AM
#61
read what i said
"no there isnt a TSB for the problem. there also isnt one for 3.5s burning oil...guess that means it doesnt happen "
09-26-2007, 10:43 AM
#62
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
So, I don't get it. Who got schooled? Where's the TSB? You do know that certain brake compounds dissipate heat at a different rate, right? Could this be why your aftermarket pads display signs of heat damage differently? Have you examined material on your rotors to prove that this is pad residue or material? Where's the proof? I find it funny how much information is NOT available on brake material transfer. Must be a new issue...
Nissan had a TSB about pulsating brakes on 5th gen Maximas, The solution was always turn or replace rotors and clean up or replace the pads. They never really addressed the issue and no one is suprised since Nissan never does unless they are sued (see 5.5th gen HID theft).
As I said before, I think it was Josh (Irish) that could literally tap of the transferred material from his rotors that were run on OEM pads. But, magically ALL the problems go away when you simply swap out the OEM pads, but it's not the pads according to our "expert".
09-26-2007, 10:45 AM
#63
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
I have not looked for it or seen it in years since I gave up on Nissan brakes.
09-26-2007, 10:47 AM
#64
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
09-26-2007, 11:00 AM
#65
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
Just in case some of you guys missed it, let me quote something from that TSB:
Hmmm, what could cause that... Possibly a build up of brake pad material causing an uneven, non-uniform braking surface?
Not warped rotors?
Brake judder is created by excessive thickness variation of the brake rotors.
Not warped rotors?
09-26-2007, 11:13 AM
#66
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
runout is due to lost material and warping
runout is the difference between the highest and lowest point on the rotor
dont tell ppl who read these manuals and tsb's for a living they dont understand the problems and how to read the solutions
use that tsb when replacing brake components for the "brake pad burnish procedure"
not doing this may cause your uneven pad transfer
when you have uneven transfer the rotor heats unevenly causing warping
it also changes the metallurgy of the rotor so that even after turning it you may get problems as those areas will react different to heat as un altered sections
"this is why race teams throw out perfectly good looking rotors without cutting them" - i have to find this quote it may be in the stop tech article
Last edited by justinny; 09-26-2007 at 11:15 AM.
09-26-2007, 11:21 AM
#67
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
maybe because its a wearable part
runout is due to lost material and warping
runout is the difference between the highest and lowest point on the rotor
dont tell ppl who read these manuals and tsb's for a living they dont understand the problems and how to read the solutions
use that tsb when replacing brake components for the "brake pad burnish procedure"
not doing this may cause your uneven pad transfer
when you have uneven transfer the rotor heats unevenly causing warping
it also changes the metallurgy of the rotor so that even after turning it you may get problems as those areas will react different to heat as un altered sections
"this is why race teams throw out perfectly good looking rotors without cutting them" - i have to find this quote it may be in the stop tech article
runout is due to lost material and warping
runout is the difference between the highest and lowest point on the rotor
dont tell ppl who read these manuals and tsb's for a living they dont understand the problems and how to read the solutions
use that tsb when replacing brake components for the "brake pad burnish procedure"
not doing this may cause your uneven pad transfer
when you have uneven transfer the rotor heats unevenly causing warping
it also changes the metallurgy of the rotor so that even after turning it you may get problems as those areas will react different to heat as un altered sections
"this is why race teams throw out perfectly good looking rotors without cutting them" - i have to find this quote it may be in the stop tech article
NOW... You explain to me why all of the problems go away from getting rid of OEM pads?
No crap rotors and pads are wearable items, but not in 6 months. IT IS pad material trasfer, it happens when people install and bed them in proper... It is not about that.
09-26-2007, 11:32 AM
#69
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
if you beat the hell outta them, 6 months might be considered good
Last edited by justinny; 09-26-2007 at 11:36 AM.
09-26-2007, 11:48 AM
#73
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
09-26-2007, 11:55 AM
#74
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
Because it is not heat damage... If a rotor is warped, it will shudder and shake no matter the pad.
The problem is, pad material transfer on the braking surface of the rotor.
Once again, if it was heat damage to the rotors, the Hawk pads I have now would only make the problem worse since they are a more aggressive pad that generate more heat. As a matter of fact, the hotter the brakes are, the better they work.
I have had my brakes with Hawk pads glowing hot for a long time, several times (aggressive back roads
) and they still have no problems. I could never drive like that on my OEM pads, not once.
The problem is, pad material transfer on the braking surface of the rotor.
Once again, if it was heat damage to the rotors, the Hawk pads I have now would only make the problem worse since they are a more aggressive pad that generate more heat. As a matter of fact, the hotter the brakes are, the better they work.
I have had my brakes with Hawk pads glowing hot for a long time, several times (aggressive back roads
) and they still have no problems. I could never drive like that on my OEM pads, not once.
09-26-2007, 12:05 PM
#75
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
Because it is not heat damage... If a rotor is warped, it will shudder and shake no matter the pad.
The problem is, pad material transfer on the braking surface of the rotor.
Once again, if it was heat damage to the rotors, the Hawk pads I have now would only make the problem worse since they are a more aggressive pad that generate more heat. As a matter of fact, the hotter the brakes are, the better they work.
I have had my brakes with Hawk pads glowing hot for a long time, several times (aggressive back roads) and they still have no problems. I could never drive like that on my OEM pads, not once.
The problem is, pad material transfer on the braking surface of the rotor.
Once again, if it was heat damage to the rotors, the Hawk pads I have now would only make the problem worse since they are a more aggressive pad that generate more heat. As a matter of fact, the hotter the brakes are, the better they work.
I have had my brakes with Hawk pads glowing hot for a long time, several times (aggressive back roads
) and they still have no problems. I could never drive like that on my OEM pads, not once.second if you do have uneven pad transfer the thicker parts (of pad material on the rotor) may make the rotor at that spot heat less then an area next to it
the uneven heating will result in uneven temperature and expansion rates across the surface of the rotor (however so slight the difference)
causing it to warp
09-26-2007, 12:14 PM
#77
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
for starters it looks like the original poster was talking about an oem setup
second if you do have uneven pad transfer the thicker parts (of pad material on the rotor) may make the rotor at that spot heat less then an area next to it
the uneven heating will result in uneven temperature and expansion rates across the surface of the rotor (however so slight the difference)
causing it to warp
second if you do have uneven pad transfer the thicker parts (of pad material on the rotor) may make the rotor at that spot heat less then an area next to it
the uneven heating will result in uneven temperature and expansion rates across the surface of the rotor (however so slight the difference)
causing it to warp
Sooo, now you are saying that the pad transfer on OEM pads is causing the warp?
You can go into those details all you want, just say it... "The OEM pads have a problem with transferring pad material to the rotors, and that alone is the cause of the problems".
09-26-2007, 12:19 PM
#79
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI NY
Posts: 78
how bad it is warped would dictate resurfacing or replacement
09-26-2007, 12:22 PM
#80
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 4,035
for starters it looks like the original poster was talking about an oem setup
second if you do have uneven pad transfer the thicker parts (of pad material on the rotor) may make the rotor at that spot heat less then an area next to it
the uneven heating will result in uneven temperature and expansion rates across the surface of the rotor (however so slight the difference)
causing it to warp
second if you do have uneven pad transfer the thicker parts (of pad material on the rotor) may make the rotor at that spot heat less then an area next to it
the uneven heating will result in uneven temperature and expansion rates across the surface of the rotor (however so slight the difference)
causing it to warp
Just say it, no matter how you try and explain it... It always goes back to OEM pads transfers material.
The quicker you admit that I am right, the better you will feel, I promise.
