OnOiShNo0dl3Z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the input Aaron.

I do feel stronger acceleration when doing city driving, but the IM felt hotter than I had anticipated based on forum posts.

I'd like to see that test done mentioned by Rochester. I think it would be a good idea to measure at different times of year as well. Winter, Summer, Spring, just to get an idea of what to expect based off of the time of year.

trooplewis

iTrader: (1)

I'll put the Laser Thermometer in my car and submit some readings, without spacers.
I did the "rear-bracket removal" mod for the spacers, but did not install them 8-)

Always been curious, if you can get +25hp for 200 bucks, why mfg's don't do it to stock vehicles. I've seen a lot of folks spend $1800 on an exhaust system that gives them maybe 10 or 12hp. Why not bump the stats and put spacers on at the factory?

Maybe I'm just naturally cynical.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

i can borrow a heat gun from work

trooplewis

iTrader: (1)

I hope you mean a thermometer, not a heat gun.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

So trooplewis has an IR gun, and no spacers. Knight_yyz can do the same, and has spacers. This is interesting. Would knight's headers come into play regarding under-the-hood temperatures? Or are they wrapped? Or is that a dumb question?

What are the conditions for the testing, do you think?

Lay out the requirements so that the comparison can be relatively accurate.

OnOiShNo0dl3Z

iTrader: (2)

I would expect the headers would actually give higher temperature readings than a car without headers. However, it'd still be a good to find out regardless for anyone planning to get headers.

Might be a good idea to note what the temperature was at the time you took the reading.

Also, troop, I doubt I'm getting a 25hp gain on my car. We see this on knight's cause his has pretty much all the breathing bolt on mods done.

P.S. - Installed my TB spacer today. Haven't really checked to see if it made a difference. Haven't rerouted my coolant lines yet neither. Might do that tomorrow.

FlawleZ

iTrader: (1)

I can say just the TB spacer alone was worth at least 1 mph higher trap at the track for me.

trooplewis

iTrader: (1)

Alright, I took my non-spacered Max's temperature tonight after a 30-mile ride, outside air about 75°

Immediately after stopping, popped the hood, shot everything on the TOP of the IM including the long throttle runner to the IM. Measurements were all between 111° and 114°

Closed the hood, went inside for 5 minutes, came back out and shot the same area again. This time, temps had risen by an average of 40° I got readings of anywhere between 148° and 155° If I shot the IM closer to where it meets the engine, I got a reading as high as 168°

Hope that helps.

OnOiShNo0dl3Z

iTrader: (2)

great now we wait for knights results.

I did feel today that the IM wasn't as hot after putting the throttle body spacer on after a half hour of city driving.

Flawlez, care to explain how you got to that conclusion? Did you also install it after the rest and saw a consistently higher trap speed?

MaximusTi

iTrader: (1)

Being cynical isn't always a bad thing. However, in the case of Knight gaining 25hp that was mid-range power, often referred to as area under the curve of a dyno chart.

Most (all) car companies list HP as a peak figure so having an increase in power that doesn't increase the power near the peak isn't beneficial unless you are an enthusiast.

In other words, the extra cost of spacers wouldn't be a marketable return.

Child_uv_KoRn

iTrader: (7)

But they spent big money on a big *** aluminum IM. Dumb decisions. Plastic IM works just fine.

95VQ30

The spacer kit appears to be a common sense "must have" for those with headers. Before headers, the IM was relatively cool to the touch and I can tell it is noticeably warmer now that I have installed the "MrBrett's cracked & whistling" headers.

I was not willing to powder coat the headers and I did not want to wrap the headers due to some rust & integrity horror stories that I found online(more bad than good in my research). I do plan on fabricating a heat shield(using sheet metal) between the front down tubes and the radiator fans at some point this summer because that 304 mild steel can get quite hot, especially under throttle.

With that said, the ambient temperature has risen due to the mild steel's thickness and the intake spacers seem to alleviate some of the heat gains under the hood. The only other option is to rig up a true cold air intake or try to jerry-rig an air vent to allow more fresh air into the engine bay(I am thinking some screened tubing through a wheel well).

FlawleZ

iTrader: (1)

Yes and on a worse conditions night when I was actually netting slower ET's due to traction problems and weather. The TB spacer is very important as it's the last piece of separation before the MAF and IAT. I can tell my TB is noticeably cooler than the neck which is noticeably cooler than the UIM. The spacers seem to stage the manifold pieces so that it gets cooler the further up you go.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

I was thinking about this thread tonight, having just got back from a midnight run bedding in the brakes. The car is in the garage right now, cooling off. As soon as I pulled it in, I popped the hood and gave the engine bay a look-see. Things were hot, no doubt about it. I couldn't leave my hand on the plastic engine cover for more than a couple seconds before yanking it away with the heat. But the UIM...? Not a problem. Warm to the touch, but not at all hot.

And believe me, the car was driven long and hard just now.

Kind of interesting, eh? Phenolic Spacers... Free the Whales.

spock

iTrader: (5)

I've got an IR thermometer that I can bring to the meet next Sat.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Hey, that could be fun. A little geeky, too. But fun nonetheless.

Yikes! Did I actually write that? Nope, nothing sexual there.

spock

iTrader: (5)

Hope it wasn't put away wet.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Perv Go get a garage.

knight_yyz

iTrader: (40)

I was going to bring the IR to the meet as well so we could test cars with and without the spacers.

spock

iTrader: (5)

It will be a fair evaluation with 2 IR's. Along with the stock and modified versions of our cars on hand, I think the test will be quite conclusive.

Aaron92SE

iTrader: (128)

Yes, those tests will be able to give you a general idea of the temperature decrease the Spacers provide. But they won't provide accurate results unless the tests were done on the same day, same car, same weather conditions, same testing timeframe, and same road course as we did. So when we say you'll see a 40 degree temperature reduction, this is as accurate of a number you can possibly get. Nothing gets more accurate than the testing method we used in my opinion.

Regardless, if you test two different vehicles with similar coolant temperatures and racing conditions, you'll still see a 30-50 degree reduction on average I'm sure. There are just too many variables involved when you test two completely different engines with two different drivers and how long they've been driven. One car could have had the hood closed 5 minutes longer than the other after shutting the engine down and that could really change the results due to the intake manifold soaking up the stagnate ambient engine bay air.

But I'm confident you'll still see very noticeable results, even if they are on two different Maximas.

spock

iTrader: (5)

Same day: check.
Same ambient temperature: check.
Same drive time: check.
Same car: well no, but one a stock '02 VQ35DE with SRI and the other a '03 VQ35DE with a SRI, spacers, y-pipe and catback.

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

Yall using an Infared thermometer? Shoot the heads and then everything else isolated by a spacer!

Red91StangCT

My problem with all the threads I read on these phenolic spacers is this....everyone attributes the hp increase due to the drop in temperature.....sorry, but this is not the case I see. Everyone says their hp increase is in the mid of their dyno pull. I see people taking temp readings on the surface of their UIM. Why?? Alum. disperses heat very quickly and i doubt the inner walls of the intake are the same temp as the outer walls...then again they can be, because alum. also transfers heat very quickly. A 40 degree drop in intake air temperature is hard to see.....

Now, NWP spacers and their BOP plate is the first mods I will do to my max. BOP of obvious reasons listed in the threads I read, but the spacers for a different reason I did not see posted in other threads. I believe the 90% of the HP increase people are seeing is NOT because the air temp drop, but because the added runner length it gives to the UIM and LIM....in other words, your intake manifold SUCKS!!!!!!!

Now, if my theory sounds wrong, do this. Try to obtain the same spacers but made out of alum. Install and dyno them at the same time as the phenolic ones. Same day. Just install and removal time between the dyno runs. I guarantee you will see less than 1-2 hp gain or loss between the two.

Does NWP offer these spacers in different thickness??? I would like to use 2 spacers under the UIM to play with the runner length

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Just to follow up... we never actually ran these tests. Instead, we drank beer and talked for hours. Sorry.

Xpcgamer

iTrader: (5)

My kind of test!

spock

iTrader: (5)

It is the Canadian way, eh.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

bahaha

FlawleZ

iTrader: (1)

You have no idea what you're talking about. It's clear from your username you're a domestic guy. The domestic aftermarket companies offer spacers for throttle bodies and advertise that they create a helical vortex and speed up the air coming into the motor which is a bunch of hogwash.

The benefits from the spacers are temp related, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter if the inner walls are the exact same temperature as the outerwalls. If there's a ~40F drop measure at the outer wall, you can be the innerwall saw the same or similar drop in temperature. You can literally FEEL the difference with your hands when you pull over from driving. Not only does the cooler air allow for more power, but the ECU knows this too and adjusts the timing accordingly. These ECU's have a variable timing that fluctuates based off the air intake temperature.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Good catch, FlawleZ.

If I can summarize that rambling post from Red91StangCT:

• Phenolic spacers don't really matter, but maybe they do.
• I've read all the spacer threads, but maybe I didn't.
• I guarantee I know what I'm talking about, but maybe I don't.

(sigh)

No, there is only one thickness available. As for using 2 sets of spacers... contact Aaron at NWP. I'm sure he'd be happy to sell you two kits. On a related note, if one beer makes you more social, then 6 beers should make you a superstar!

FastFoxBody

Sorry for the off topic noob question, I did search. Has anyone tried adding more spacers(like double or trippeling up) to increase the volume even more and lengthen the runners? does this effect hood clearances or anything else. Just a thought.

Red91StangCT

Good job on deciphering that I am a domestic guy from my name. Good job on also knowing that all domestic guys buy phenolic spacers that create a helical vortex speeding up the ai......what the hell are you talking about?? If your domestic buddies share the same idea as the one posted above, I have a few bridges they can buy. Real cheap, deal of a lifetime. Do not pass judgement based on a name alone, please. Domestic or import, airflow dynamics relate to both air pumps, regardless of the make.


Never said the benefits of the spacers are not temp related. I just questioned how much of the power was due to temp related vs added runner length that the spacers provide, in my opinion was very minimal. You also stated that the drop in temp on the surface of the manifold would be close to the same as the runners inside. Heat soak and all, show me a material with 100 percent heat transfer....used in our conversation. You really think that the air rushing in your engine is 40 degrees cooler because of these spacers??? Maybe.....maybe at idle, but once you crack the throttle 1/8th, that 40 degree cooler air as you said, is already polluting. Air flows too quickly for that vast of a thermal transfer.

Back to my airflow idea. Added runner length will give you more power mid range, which is one of the benefits of these spacers....IMHO, the biggest.

"Not only does the cooler air allow for more power, but the ECU knows this too and adjusts the timing accordingly. These ECU's have a variable timing that fluctuates based off the air intake temperature."

Yes, denser air does allow for more power, and almost every EFI system fluctuates timing based on air temp.

Let's say that I am completely wrong in my ideas and you are completely right. Let me ask you a few questions. Where is the air metered on your 5.5??? Where is the thermistor on your 5.5??? What is between your throttle body and said maf/thermistor???

By your theory, you are leaning out your engine......simple as that.

Damn dude. I have read some of your threads, posts, etc. I thought you had enough intelligence to agree with some of the stuff I said. Judging by your response, I am questioning your reading comprehension.

My idea was to play with upper intake manifold runner length based on my theory of added runner length, never said that it would gain more power, hell it might loose power. My idea was to improve on the ****ty design of your intake manifolds by adding runner length.


Nope, because all the power is due to the 40 degrees drop that is "CLAIMED" by these spacers. Runner length has NO affect on the power provided by these spacers.

You Mustang guys know NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!


There you go, read number 4. If you are not going to listen to me, listen to one of your own.

BTW dude, gorgeous car.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

http://forums.maxima.org/all-motor/6...yno-gains.html
We like volume.

FastFoxBody

I have read that many times

I was just wondering if anyone has doubled or tripled Aaron's spacers? As the gain primarily seems to be from the increased volume. This seems like a cheaper way then having a custom IM made. The lower IATs just seem like a bonus...

What's your best time in the 1/4?

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

And now we have a new standard by which to gauge intelligence: whether or not you agree with the Org newbie who's second-guessing NWP Engineering.

Good to know. We've been warned.

SERiousracer

Im about to install these, I will take external temp readings before and after..

Red91StangCT

How exactly did I second guess NWP? The gain isn't from the IAT temp being lower...I know it is because of the extra IM volume...which is why I asked why not stack another spacer on. I would be very interested in the gains, if any.

Not going to keep arguing with you man, this is a thread about NWP's phenolic spacers and the 40 degree drop they provide.....BUT......I never knew that joining a forum to gather info for a vehicle you are interested in from your fellow enthusiasts negated automotive knowledge. Sorry if I am not as gullible as you believing claims w/out any proof. Real world documented proof.

Never second guesses NWP's engineering, everyone here knows they make a hell of a product that is backed up by real power gains. Be it those gains coming from the amazing 40 degree drop in temp as you and thy claim, or from gaining runner length. Let me say that I will purchase their spacers, but not on their temperature drop claim. If I wanted a drop in temp and had a choice between the spacers and a meth kit, guess where my 200 dollars would go to.


Hey man, he directed that comment at me. Can you please not steal my insult...

Mustang guys and their attention spans, i tell you.


Do you have their block off plate??? If so, you can put an end to this discussion by buying an air temp gauge and drilling it into the BOP. That way you can gauge temp before and after the spacer install. You can actually SEE the claims throughout the RPM range. I am very curious as well.

I can guarantee you that I am not the same person as the other guy. Join dates are the same. His post was edited by some mod. Why, I do not know.

nelledge

iTrader: (6)

Would it help you if I said I just finished praying for rain?

Red91StangCT

Figured I would quote before you edited this. Remember what I said when i called you gullible???

nelledge

iTrader: (6)

The guy has enough integrity to admit mistake, and you're going to get an attitude? It's really difficult to see a new member come in here and immediately throw down the gauntlet. I'm not sure if that's what you meant to do, but it might be a good idea to take a breath and get some perspective.