MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=T_Behr904;8151297]Interesting concept. I had thought about having a naca duct made or buying one and having it blended into the hood and painted so it looks "factory", but the scoop idea would be alot cheaper to do.

Great idea except for when it rains...

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

In order to clarify the difference between the "Cool Air Diverter"-Mod vs. GAB;

Read the copy of "NmexMax" comments on the stock air-box (see post #89 in this thread); FYI; "Sparks03Max" (Who knows about as much as anyone about intake systems) stated similar things about the stock air-box.

Read this link;

http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...ml?ref=esp-lin

And see the copy of the post below;

Thread: GAB - minus the ghetto
View Single Post 02-17-2009, 11:16 PM #16 irish44j retired moderator

Quote: Originally Posted by mist max2000BERK/APEX'i FTW

also..a few years ago..someone got a dyno and proved slight gains with this over stock IIRC,...

Quote:Originally Posted by Scottwax

Supposedly, 4 holes is the optimum. Someone did testing by drilling all those holes and then plugging them up a few at a time. 4 holes worked the best for some reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by irish44j retired moderator

that was me....and the gains were "slight" indeed (~2whp) with 4 holes, and about 1whp with all 8 holes open. I had it set up so I could have the holes all open, partially open, and completely closed. There wasn't much difference between the three on the dyno...the difference could just as easily been a standard margin of error on a dyno.

Keep in mind I also had a Cattman ypipe and Frankencar catback...so the extra intake flow was worth more than it might be on a stock exhaust...


Originally Posted by Jeff92se

Again Irish the voice of reason in this coversation.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

BAHAHA GOOD eye Mark, I completely bombed that one. I thought the numbers seemed a bit high.

CORRECTION: .7% of 170 is 1.19
.7% of 222 is 1.6

Mala maña

Well all ican say is "very nice" u thought of something n u did.i have a 02 max but I went a different way,i elimenated the airbox n got the adapter wit aitfilter for te maf n did the resistor on the ait sensor n it made a,hella of a differece

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Damn dude, you're amazing at posting and researching, I just want to commend you for that.

I will say, I personally disagree with the conventional GAB mod, Drilling holes in the top of the air cleaner box is just NOT something I'd do. The way to do it if you're going to be Ghetto, is the coathanger method, which is proven to make a signifigant increase in power.

If it were me and I wanted to modify the stock intake for more power, while being discreet and not so 'ghetto', I'd be more likely to turn the battery, drill ONE large hole in the front, and run a tube off of that hole into the fender well.

Nexus67

iTrader: (23)

Not at all. You said: there are "much much better ways to gain power, w/o spending much money, especially on intake components"

The GAB really offers no significant gains, and most likely no more so than the theoretical gains this offers (I say theoretical b/c this has to be tested for power). Also, the GAB is more prone to heat soak and requires hacking (or a hanger for the willing)

Free is better than ~$15, but $15 isn't a wallet-breaker.

I just want to know how that is 'much much' better.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the compliment!

To each their own I say. I personally, am suspicious of the GAB for various reasons.

It's a great way to get additional air (assuming the OEM snorkel is that restrictive in the first place) from the hottest under-hood area right under the hood insulation, since hot air rises and sits there. IMHO the hotter air negates any benefit from the assumed added airflow. Considering that the filter itself is the major airflow limiting factor. The open top of the air-box is an invitation for road splash dirt, and debris to get in and clog/ruin the filter (assuming a good seal with the coat hanger) or worse. On my 2001 VQ30DE-K the AIT sensor is in the inlet snorkel. GAB would bypass that and the ECU wouldn't see the actual intake air temp without relocating the sensor. There's so many conflicting stories re: failed GAB mods ruining MAF's, causing poor idle/low speed performance, and even failing emissions testing. The only confirmed GAB effect is increased intake noise. In the case of the GAB more noise doesn't always equal "Moar Power"!

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

As I stated above, the coat hanger method is the GAB mod that's shown proven signifigant increase, 3-10 WHP is a HUGE gain, especially for free, or under $20.

Also, as I commented above drilling a larger hole and running a snorkel into the fender well would cost under $20, and would lower intake air temps a lot more than this.

Don't get me wrong, I really like this little mod the OP's come up with.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Did I miss something here? You're good with putting a slab of plastic in front of your radiator, thinking that simple trick is something auto designers missed somehow... and yet you balk at the GAB?

OK there, Bob. I'm in to see what you come up with next.

Nexus67

iTrader: (23)

Fair enough. The gains on the GAB I would definitely attribute more to the additional bolt-ons though (like most intakes I suppose) My only beef w/ the GAB is the heat-soak. I like your snorkel idea.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

I never claimed that "a slab of plastic in front of the radiator" did anything more than divert cool air from behind the grill to the OEM inlet. In an effort to reduce inlet air temps and so far it "works as advertised". Not according to my claims but from disinterested 3rd party guys who "did the math" on the raw data. The possibility that the auto designers missed my idea is slim. But it wouldn't be the first in my experience, engineers "dropped the ball" either. GAB claims are just too nebulous and conflicting for my taste, that's the long and short of it. The same reason they make Chocolate and Vanilla ice cream.

sud123

Bob I was the one that did the math and asked you for the writeup. I did buy the plastic from autozone. I don't have the tools to cut/file/drill. I like this mod, but I have to wait until I find someone who can help. when I install this, I will definitely buy a data reader and do a comparison w/ & w/o CAD.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

I know what you claimed, I've been reading the thread. Cutting holes in your airbox vs. putting a panel in front of the air inlet... they seem equally reasonable, or equally silly, depending on your POV for that sort of thing.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Quite welcome, the compliment was well earned. I understand your concerns and scepticism about the GAB, like anything, if done incorrectly it will cause problems. Because of the low to 'nil' cost factor on that mod, pretty much any moron is willing to try it, as such, you are going to have a bunch who have problems because they did it wrong.

Now, I must comment, please don't take this as me flaming you or anything, but you are reading a bit too far into things on this one, and for educational purposes I feel the need to tear that post apart a bit:

The location of the filter is the COLDEST spot in the engine bay at all times, to say hot air rises and sits there defies the basic premis of the rest of this thread and your findings. When the car starts moving the bulk of the airflow passes through there. Also, it's the area with the fewest items in the engine bay, as such, there is more air in that area than anywhere else, that simple fact in itself will reduce the temperature in that area by comparison to the rest of the engine bay, regardless if the car is moving or not. Air being about the best insulator per CC than any other item in that engine bay....

Now, road splash, dirt, etc? Really? have you EVER seen road splash or anything even resembling it in your engine bay? No, you haven't, that's because it can't get there unless you've swiss cheesed your wheelwell . Now, it goes without saying that this Coat hanger GAB mod will decrease the life of the filter, because you are exposing it to more air, and as such, more grime and dirt, this is even more true in dusty areas or in an engine that is poorly maintained (ie. exhaust leaks, oil leaks, etc.)

As for the IAT on our DE-K, by the time the air gets to the TB, the temperature has increased substantially compared to the temp it was at the IAT sensor, not only that, but all you have to do is tie off the IAT in the engine bay near the battery and it will pick up the ambient temperature that the Air filter is pulling in with the GAB mod, the IAT is not an exact science on the DE-K, this is part of the reason Nissan changed the setup on the 3.5 and put the IAT with the MAFS for a more accurate reading.

E-Test: FYI, any modification to the stock airbox is an immediate visual fail, any technician that bothers to look would fail it. This applies to cone filters as well.

Lastly, the GAB HAS been proven to make power, not just noise, that's why it's a widely accepted mod in the community, it's not just hearsay, it's actually been dyno'd and PROVEN to increase power. I will say it ONE more time, the coathanger method is the only PROVEN GAB mod, drilling holes has not shown any signifigant increase other than noise in any tests that have been posted or documented that I've read.

Oh, and YES the GAB mod will increase heat-soak, but no more than any of the cone filters everyone installs in their engine bay.


I propose, armed with what you know now, your experience here, and your uncanny ability to datalog and post in such a magnificent manner, that you take this to the next level.
If you want to make a REAL CAD (Cold Air Diverter) that is. Start thinking of a relatively easy way to modify the snorkels location, or add another snorkel, so that you'll pick up some real cold air. Ideally, do it in a way that enlargens the snorkel to limit the restriction. The OEM intake was made to be quiet AND efficient, if you don't mind a little extra noise you're going to gain some ponies by opening it up, getting rid of resonators, baffles, etc (stock intake is full of them, ever really looked at that intake snorkel, it's runners and baffles and everything? regardless of what the stock intake is CAPABLE of handling for power, it IS restrictive, as such, there is power to be gained by redesigning it.)

I think that concludes my novel for this evening

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Mmmm POV.....

T_Behr904

Nexus67

iTrader: (23)

I'd be interested to see the hanger vs. the holes on the GAB. Still, the highest dynoed GAB was supported by other mods.

As this 'diverter' does keep temps lower, I think it's possible to see ~1-2 hp; not really much less than the GAB w/o supporting mods. We'll have to see.

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

You need to come over soon so we can do the swiss cheese dance on that airbox.....

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Since you're serious about doing the mod and already bought the AZone scoop. I'd be willing to configure the scoop "gratis" as appreciation for the good work you did compiling the raw data. Big stickler is that you're in Tx. and the cost of shipping the Scoop/CAD, TX<=>RI would probably be more expense than it's worth.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

"Oh Behave"

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

As far as a "Moar Power" setup, I've seen your SRI with a cool air inlet in the fender in pictures. It's a well proven solution and yours is the most elegant setup I've seen to date.

FYI; Just to prove I'm not a pigheaded dolt! On your recommendation in another thread, I've got a Progress RSB waiting at UPS for pickup. Not to mention the "top of headlight to hood seals" were installed within a week of your posting on them. When I see/hear a good idea I'll "jump on it"!

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

It seems you're researching the heck out of the Org, and dabbling in some of the less expensive, easy-2-install recommendations. Sounds about right. Good for you on the RSB.

Here's one more good idea for you to jump on with pocket change: for $20, replace the original FSB frame bushings with new ones from ES. You'll be amazed.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Excellent rebuttal! Which clears up many of my GAB misconceptions from reading the many conflicting posts on the GAB mod. The VQ30DE-K IAT sensor info was especially helpful and gives food for thought. Here in RI they use sand/salt on roads in the winter and I've seen it on top of my IM, air-box, etc. It does a beautiful job of corroding the exposed aluminum/steel engine parts and brackets. I did the Fog Light - wiring mod and was disgusted at how much dirt was in the relay box. All my under-body guards/panels are in place and firmly attached so there's no excuse for how the stuff gets up so high into the engine bay, but it does. Which is another reason I'm a hesitant on cutting holes in the inner fender. Another path for "crap" to get into the engine bay!

It would be nice to see airflow numbers on the OEM snorkel, just to show how restrictive it is. I like the concept of enlarging the OEM snorkel since there's really very little room to get air from behind the grill (my preference) due to interference with the radiator/headlights, radiator support, and hood. However, the first thought that comes to mind is "Siameseing" 2 snorkels for more flow, and similar enlargement of the snorkel attachment to the air-box. It'd have to be a very clean mod and take a pretty savvy Tech noticing the difference to fail an E-Test due to a modified intake. Something I'm tempted to look into (a winter project.). That being said, it wouldn't be a cheap/easy mod "any moron" could do without problems! Which is the main reason I promote the current (Stage I) simple CAD.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Of course I'm looking for the GOOD/cheap mods! I have a hard time spending BIG $$$ on a car worth 5K. I.E. As much as I'd LOVE a set of CATTMAN headers it's hard to justify a mod costing such a substantial percentage of the total worth of the car.

When I saw the Progress RSB was out of production, I jumped on the WWW, warmed up the credit card and ordered the ONLY "1 in stock", I found after extensive searching. Thanks for the "Heads Up!" Urethane bushings throughout, are "on my to do list".

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

Then Buy a $50,000 ride and spend some big money! Having an expensive car that's modded is what I thought most people did mods for, in order to run with the big dogs that actually cost way more then you've spent totally....If you do your El Cheapo Method you'll still be left with plenty of desire for more power/torque! You can find some cheap A$$ (Custom Maxima)header for $160 but they'll need a little bit of fabbing necessary to fit properly, as well as half the crap on your eBay nation!
I bought a $200 Turbo Mopar and throwing big $$$$ mods @ it is just that point you started low with the purchase so now buying high tech mods is easier since there's no car notes or just small car note to concern yourself with......Does that compute for you!

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

I really don't have an appropriate reply for this! If I could afford a $50K ride, why would I be driving a 10yr old $5K car looking for GOOD/cheap (maybe I should have said inexpensive) mods. To replace the old failing parts with something a little bit better than OEM? Some of us have to live on a budget!

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Rochester; Your post made it to my E-Mail but not into the thread for some reason. And no, I seldom use "air quotes" when I talk! However, being of Italian decent I do occasionally use my hands for emphasis!

Yeah, the demise of Cattman is a bummer indeed! But in this economy, anyone lucky enough to still be employed. Is working harder/longer with little to no compensation for the additional workload. Apparently, his side business conflicts with his steady income job. (soapbox mode off)

Anyway, I'm a happy guy today! I picked up the RSB from UPS on the way home from work. When I got home there was a FedEx sticker on the door, which meant that the Apexi filter couldn't be delivered (signature) and could be picked up at FedEx tonight. Got that too, it was like Maxima X-Mas!

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

I tanked up this morning and checked mileage over the past 2 weeks since the "CAD"-Mod (using the cheap paper filter). I don't know if this a significant improvement? But it's approx. 20-25 more miles per tank, than I've gotten with "normal" (for me, I'm no light-foot) driving conditions. Which for a usual work week, is roughly 70% City / 30% Highway.

Here's the numbers;

321.7 Miles/14.2 Gal.=22.7 MPG.

Is this good, bad, or average for a VQ30DE-K / 4AT / 2001 Maxima SE?

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

The Apexi "Power Panel" filter came yesterday and was installed on the spot. No overwhelming difference aside from the VIAS opening is slightly more noticeable. However, I installed the Progress RSB today and that made a BIG difference. Guess I owe CMax03 a thanks for enlightening me on mediocre cheap mods. Looks like I'm going to give Brian a call Monday and see if there's still room for my order on the headers list.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

I've been considering TunerMaxima3000's valid suggestion. Taking the CAD concept to the next level and work on a way to improve the airflow/efficiency of the OEM snorkel/air-box. I haven't had much luck scrounging scrap-yards. They've either been destroyed in a front/side collision, or the yard wants top dollar. So I'm asking if any 5th Gen .ORG members who have replaced the OEM air-box/snorkel with an aftermarket CAI/SRI and have NO INTENTIONS of ever RE-INSTALLING the STOCK SETUP. Would be kind enough to donate or sell for cheap those parts, probably just gathering dust/taking up space. For experimentation purposes, since if this project turns out a FAIL! I'd like to still have my OEM stuff to re-install as a backup. Please PM me with any replies on this. Thanx in advance!

arlan

iTrader: (1)

another inexpensive mod to "CAD", Home Made 3" Cold Air Intake

http://www.vqpower.com/v2/articles.php?article_id=5

the "3" to 3" Rubber coupler" can be changed to "3 to 4" and 4" aluminum flexhose for more air intake.

i think i still have the OEM snorkel from 2k max if you need.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

^^ ^^



I noted my intake air temp today was 30* C (86* F). This is inside the engine bay by the battery where most SRI's are (mine included). I already knew an SRI wasn't the best design, I made the sacrifice for the sound. BUT I think it's killing my fuel mapping and thusly fuel consumption. I mean, it's around -5* C here during this check (25*F), so for it to be that hot is crazy can you imagine summer time???!!!!????!!!!

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

I repositioned my battery to get my intake filter end as close to the front(almost behind the drivers-side headlight) as possible. This thread was entertaining to read through though lol. Until I see figures of the average air temp from a fender pulled intake(at the TB) and they are considerably lower than the intake pulling air from within the engine bay I still think the difference is negligible. I think dense warm air is better than turbulent mildly cool air. In intercooler is the only CAI in my opinion lol

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

For some foolish reason, I was bored an clicked "read post" from Shocknawe (he's on my blocked list, but he's been clearly re-thinking his approach to the .org, and making much smarter posts of late, at least, it seems this way when I see a post from him quoted lately).

Well, this is an exception. But rather than flame you for your comments sir, I'll applaud your recent change in mindstate, or rather, attempt at it.

And because of it, I'll give you the 'evidence' that you ask for. It's in this thread, where Sparks undoubtably proves that the air in the fender is colder and better, even with a hacked up nasty expanded Homedepot duct piece.

Here's your bedtime reading, pull up a comfy chair:

http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...ai-vs-sri.html

And you may want to consider just deleting the last sentance in your post above, leaving it would risk of people thinking you're completely igorant.

Enjoy!

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Butt dyno numbers aren't the type of evidence I meant. I didn't say the air wouldn't be cooler lol it obviously would be. I meant more along the lines of prove the temp with the hp gain. IMO even in the best case scenario(of the fender CAI) it might be an extra 5hp from that cooler air? I think a well designed SRI with a heat-shield produces comparable HP numbers. My last sentence was an opinion lol, the only true CAI in my opinion is running the air through an intercooler.

da night ryder

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to tell my brother to do this since he is so cheap. Thanks!

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Fine, here we go once again, I'll attempt to school you a little. You need this especially if you plan to SC so I hope you take it well, I'll try to be nice about it.


My link and it's info is exactly what you asked for


What you are saying you "think" defies the very BASIC principles of physics and science. Warm air is NOT dense, COLD AIR IS DENSE. Turbulence is also a WANTED feature of any intake or exhaust system, but it's control is the part that is key. Once inside the intake tubing it's control is entirely up to the intake design.

Also, the turbulence in the engine bay from the Hot air, especially when an SRI is introduced, is MUCH higher than that of the fenderwell. MUCH< MUCH< MUCH higher.

This whole statement is absolutely 100% wrong.

An intercooler's function is to cool down hot air. This hot air is ONLY present because the air has been pressurized (and thusly, heated) by a compressor (turbo/supercharger). This is the intercooler's only job, to make the air colder. It doesn't make it colder than the air you'd get in the fenderwell. The air in the fender is COLDER than any Intercooler setup will acheive. Again, these are basic principles.

This is why your statement makes no sense at all, your opinion it may be, but it's still completely false, and if you think it's true, again, you have some learning to do.

And one of thousands to millions of books, threads, research articles, and basic principles of physics and science will prove this to you. I am astonished that you would even think for a second to question this. This is the REASON CAI's are desired period, colder denser air makes more power because it allows DENSER air into the cylinder, which means MORE air which means MORE fuel which means MORE charge volume, and MORE POWER.

Also, couple this with the fact that it's actual temperature is colder, which keeps cylinder and engine temps lower, increasing efficancy and keeping power levels up. Ever see them spray coolant on a race engine before a run, or put blocks of ice on the intake?

An extra 5 WHP? You think that that is miniscule, that's a LARGE increase, that's actually DOUBLING the normal gains from the GAB mod, etc.

Also, thinking that PEAK HP GAINS are what you want to acheive is a very incorrect way to think. You want to increase power across the whole band, specifically where it's needed most. There's a science behind intake and exhaust tuning that I don't expect you to understand fully, but you should know at least the basics. This is clearly something you are currently lacking.

You have a lot of reading to do ShockNawe, before you even think about SCing. Unless of course you plan to just pay someone to tune your engine and teach you the proper way to drive it. Don't get me wrong, this is OK, but don't profess to know about it, or try to modify it.
your amount of knowledge to be undertaking such a task isn't even close to where it needs to be.

A little less cockiness and a LOT more learning, and you could get there. Your change on the .org in the last while is a testiment to the possibility of you learning, so I hope you can take this with the best of intentions, and maybe dig up some of Spark's other threads, follow the links he provides, research a lot, and when you have questions, feel free to ask.

T_Behr904

^^ Well said, Tuner.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

You're welcome!

Before you guys get into a long drawn out controversy, here's the facts. The "CAD" is just a simple effective way to lower inlet air temps ~7deg. using the stock inlet Snorkel/Air-Box. Whether or not it makes more power is debatable. That said, the efficiency benefits from colder/denser inlet air temp appears to be slightly better city MPG & drive-ability. I.E. According to the data, slightly less throttle to achieve the same speeds in DD situations. That could be attributed to factors like air-density/temp, heat-soak, MAF/timing, differentials etc. Take your pick, or 'D' = all the above, bottom line it's an easy $15. mod that works as advertised.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

Nice concept, but I frown on any road level inlet scheme for a DD. Road debris will clog the filter faster and when it rains water can enter the system. Both are bad for engine efficiency/performance, dirt blocks flow & water displaces air. That's why drag racers concentrate on air temp and grains of moisture when tuning. Best situation is getting the coldest/dryest air possible to the engine. Not to mention that the biggest restriction in the OEM system is the air-box inlet. Which believe it or not actually has a larger calculated inlet area than a 3" dia. tube.