Rochester

iTrader: (3)

LTB wasn't in the equation... probably because I framed the argument, and never bought one because of clearance issues and availability of such a custom piece. But I get that you're trying, so thanks.

On that note, how about expanding the ranking to include a LTB, as well as subframe collars?

Anybody want to sequence and rank these 5 items? If I had to guess, I'd say:

RSB > LTB > FSTB > Collars > RSTB

Not sure about numbers, though.

morris369

iTrader: (1)

I don't have experience with a FSTB on the 5th gens yet (and yes, I will be putting one on my car at some point) but on my 4th gen it made a feelable difference. Mine had it on it when I bought it. I took a buddies car, same year, same suspension (strut/spring combo) for a ride, his didn't feel as solid in the turns, and had more torque steer. I was confused because I had thought we had the same suspension setup, and they were both recently install and both aligned, the same day, by the same tech. Tires may have had something to do with it (different brands, but same size on stock 01 AE wheels), but his didn't have the FSTB. That was the biggest thing I could find that made the difference, he bought a chepo ebay one (mine was stillen) and put it one, and it felt a lot more like mine. Call it what you want, but I felt a difference and I will buy one for my car.

Shift_Max

iTrader: (18)

Then you might as well include my steering column bushing which makes a nice difference on steering.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

True. And FSB bushings, for that matter. And now that I think of it, the NWP Torque Link Connector should probably be in some discussion somewhere.

Anyway, about bushings... I'm thinking maybe another ranking thread for that.

http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...s-collars.html

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

#1: RSB
#2: FSTB
#3: RSTB

Just because I have no idea what an LTB is...

My first bolt-on was the FSTB. Although I "felt" a minor improvement, I just like the peace of mind knowing I'm not fatiguing my unibody chasis as much as I could be (because I love cornering like a bat out of hell). RSB made a significant difference and both, when coupled with coilovers, have actually made the handling enjoyable on the A33.

As far as bolt-on's go, I think we shoudn't neglect those such as ES sway bar bushings & Moog endlinks which to me, far outweigh the benefits of candidates such as the FSTB/RSTB.

As far as torque steer (once I got used to it), it wasn't an issue for me until I did the sway bar bushings and Moog endlinks. Then it became noticeable, although far outweighed by the improvement in cornering ability.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Lower Tie-Brace. There are references like Stage 1, Stage 2, etc., corresponding to the complexity and stiffness. But I'm no expert on this at all. Someone with LTB experience can certainly weigh in with authority.

When it was popular, Blemco was selling those; (Matt Blem... 3rd gen Mod.) Pretty sure he stopped making them, though. Every now and then someone gets creative and makes their own; (knight_yyz comes to mind. He makes all his own stuff... because Toolie.)

See previous post. Literally, the post right above you.

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

Yeah, sorry - didn't see it until I posted my reply.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

I agree with this 100%. RSB is the best bang for buck, handling improvement mod.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Here's another way to look at the direct changes of the RSB. Just before the install, I went ramping so I could establish a recent baseline in my head. Then after the install, I did it all over again. There's a short 360* off-ramp where I would begin under-steering at about 40-50 MPH. Immediately after the RSB install, that break-point went up to 50-60 mph.

Simple gains, simple mod. Any time you do something that improves how much control you have over the car, it's a win.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

I did a thread on sway bars a while back and listed a site where all of them are available for the max. I feel I must say a sway bar is not for everybody. An inexperienced driver can quickly spin out in a car equipped with a sway bar. A little body roll is good because it allows you to get a good feel for when the car will lose control. With no body roll the car will feel the exact same until you spin out when your tires lose grip. It is a great mod but dangerous as well

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

It makes a world of difference in stability. The biggest thing I notice is the 'bump steer wiggle' courtesy of the beam axle is markedly reduced w/RSB.

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

The wash-out I used to get in the rear without the RSB was, IMHO much more dangerous. The way the RSB works is that in the crux of a turn, it's going to load the front outer tire that is negotiationg the turn. Given that the A33 is a front wheel drive, the result is a much bigger load on the drive tire, allowing the vehicle to rocket out of the turn because it's glued to the road. Anyone who loses grip in that situation to the point of spinning out had much greater problems than an RSB to blame.

I see your point though, but we're talking a REALLLY inexperienced driver that would have no business taking turns at those kinds of speeds anyway, which only reinforces my opinion.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

That's true enough, especially w/RWD. But most FWD platforms understeer way before the point of rear breakaway. Except for poorly designed FWD/IRS designs that snap oversteer due to weight jacking. The Maxima doesn't have that problem as far as I know. The beam axle is pretty well behaved despite it's dated design.

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

i know we are only throwing out our personal experiences n all... but to me i think to test that kind of thing is moreso with cones, and a flat open pavement (granted yours will probebly be the closest to the test as we will get), but make couple turns to where the car will loose control and an approx speed at where it looses control (using new tires) then do the same with the RSB, LTB and yes, the BS FSTB and others and monitor those speeds... i just feel like its the common thing for car enthusiasts to "feel" a difference with almost everything and i think its sometimes mental vs factual... but i would loooove to see a test

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

That's the kind of controlled testing we always ask for and never see, and for a number of reasons, not the least of which is we're always wanting "someone else" to put the effort into it. So you're right in assuming as good as it gets is a before/after assessment that's totally subjective and entirely unscientific.

In 2 weeks, merovi and I are going to Auto-X (cone tracks in a parking lot). Maybe we can convince him to remove his Racingline FSTB for one of his runs, and see what happens.

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

yea i guess that would be cool, but im not sure if that same mental effect wouldnt kick in also... if you just dont feel like the car would turn the same im sure his mindset going around turns would be a lil different as one would think they would now get out of control, but like me and shift max said.. it would probebly be somewhat of a difference in those conditions but for people daily driving and saying the "feel" a difference is where IMO is more mental than real as far as the FSTB go

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

IMHO, the FSTB reduces chasis flex more than any major influence on the actual suspension geometry. That's why the difference is "felt" more than any objective, measurable differences in handling per se. Of course it helps, but it won't create a change like a sway bar, spring load or dampening change would.

Discipulus96

I sense a lot of heat coming from GHustle on this one. There are good arguments on both sides, however I too feel a difference and I'll explain. I have so far performed 3 suspensions mods in order: FSTB, Moog Endlinks and ES FSB bushings, and a Progress RSB.

On EACH of these mods I went for a "Spirited" drive along a curvy river road near my house BEFORE AND AFTER the install. I don't push hard enough to start to break loose around the corners, but definitely aggressive enough to work the suspension well.

I would have to say:
FSTB - 2
Endlinks+ES - 3
RSB - 8

The FSTB was a very minor improvement, but definitely noticeable. I wasn't expecting much, so I bought a fairly inexpensive bar:
http://tinyurl.com/7nle8wd

Although I got it for only $40... so i'm not sure how that price got so high...

The Moog endlinks and ES front sway bar bushings made a bigger difference, and definitely a worthy investment. But by far, the rear sway bar takes the crown. Definitely the best bolt on suspension mod without buying new struts/shocks and springs. Gives more confidence in the corners, doesn't lean as much, feels more responsive.

Subframe collars arrived in the mail today, excited to install them soon!

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

There's validity to both sides of the argument; It's proven that devices to stiffen the chassis and help maintain suspension geometry throughout it's travel improve handling in racing. That said, the real world DD improvements are debatable as well as the cost vs. benefit arguments. The reality is there are too many vehicle setup & road-going variables to come to an accurate conclusion. As the saying goes "Your mileage will vary!"

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Excellent post, and exactly the tone and depth of discussion I was hoping to create. And an Org noobie, no less. Well written, Discipulus96.

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

i dont know why would i argue? if you read what i said earlier you would see that i agree... you went out for a "spirited" run and ranked it a 2.... my argument was to these guys who drive so daily and said they "feel" a difference, and not even just turning at 20mph into your neighborhood but it can be entering or exiting the hwy... i never said it makes absolutely no difference, all i said is i call BS on ppl just doing the regular commute and all the sudden the car feel so much peppier... with those same daily drive routine you can barely feel a lil more aggression with a RSB so for something soooooo inferior i call BS at "feeling" a difference in that same driving conditions... now sure if everyday you drive so hard to test the FSTB then yea u probebly would feel that difference to rank it a 2 lol...

ever seen a woman face that you ranked a 2??? lmao, thats not a good grade

AZ89two4tsx

iTrader: (1)

RSB - rear sway bar
FSTB - front strut tower bar
RSTB - rear strut tower bar

amirite????

<----- noob here

I'm assuming the "RSB" wins overwhelmingly. Mines stock and the backend swings out almost unexpectedly under hard cornering. If you're not ready for it/inexperienced, it's dangerous. :P

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

^^^ damn bro maybe you need to chill a lil around turns lol.. but yea thats exactly why the rsb is so much better because most of the problem with our suspension is from the rear...

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

No offense, but sometimes it's really difficult to be patient with your nonsense.

You have nothing to prove here. Stop whoring the thread and :matt93se:

Prophecy99

iTrader: (1)

LTB Stage II - 9
Rear Spacers 20mm - 2.5~3
Front Spacers 5mm - 2
FSTB - 2

All this talk makes me want to try the other suspension enhancements like RSTB (besides it's practicality), RSB and the Endlinks and ES SwayBar Bushings.

Subframe collars dont exactly work with the LTB Stage II, only 2 of 4 would easily, i may still try them though and sell the other two.

Lets not forget the almighty Subframe Connectors SFCs. Still wish i took that plunge with them.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

This is complete hearsay, but I suspect the RSTB is only a noticeable and positive contribution when you already have a reasonably flat suspension. When I put the Stillen RSTB in the car, I was convinced it suffered less body roll... but just a little bit. And it very quickly became the new normal.

Here's another personal opinion about the RSTB... the *only* reason I had one is that I picked it up for $100 shipped from a friend on the Org. There was no way I was going to buy it new from Stillen for their asking price + shipping. No way.

Sure did look interesting in my trunk, though:

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

I'm tempted to wholy agree with the OP rating.

The FSTB DOES make a difference. That's that. To what extent is represented, IMO, accurately by the rating system.

My experience with it was both without coilovers, and with them. In both instances, I felt a noticable difference in cornering response/firmness with and without the bar installed.

I can't speak to the RSB/RSTB too much other than what I've heard over the years on here, which is the RSB is a huge suspension upgrade, and the RSTB is a waste of money.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

OK, Tuner. How would you rate coilovers if they were in the mix? I'm thinking the following:

40 - Coilovers
08 - Rear Sway Bar
03 - Front Strut Tower Brace
02 - Subframe collars
01 - Rear Strut Tower Brace

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

I have no experience with anything but the CO's and FSTB. I would have to agree on the Coilover rating being exponential in comparison to the other modifications. I'll also add one thing to your rating with confidence.

Also, something I never hear about on here, what about FSB?? We know the SE sway bar is slightly bigger (3mm larger, IIRC), but haven't we put larger ones on or modified ones? I can only speculate that there's some rigidity to be gained from such a modification, perhaps equal to the RSB? I know that Sway bar Diameter modification is a fine art, as are the working angles, etc. this is something that takes a lot of R&D to get done properly, and that explains why we don't have it....I suppose

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Yes, high performance tires. And you're ranking of 25 under 40 is right, too.

When my OEM, all-season Bridgestones died (in 2004), I replaced them with super expensive, unidirectional, summer-only Goodyear Eagle F1's, and suddenly... Racecar! It was hard on the wallet replacing those Eagles every few years, but totally worth it.

And you're numbers are wrong. The FSB on the SE is 23mm thick, whereas the non-SE models have a 22mm Front Sway Bar. It's only a 1mm difference. IDK what would happen with an even stiffer FSB. Good question.

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

I'm kind of lost on the ranking system/formula we are to apply here. Nonetheless, throwing coilovers into the mix makes this a whole new ball game. For what they are, I consider a coilover system the best bang-for-the-buck bolt-on suspension mod, hands-down.

For starters, the technological (i.e., durability, adjustability options and accessibility to replacement insterts) improvements and the affordability of recent model coilovers have really taken them out of the hands of the elite, and made them available to the average DD. For example, when I wento to re-do my suspension, the difference in price between a setup with Illuminas and Teins (including replacing strut mounts & boots), put the BR coilover kit at only $200 more. It was a no-brainer.

As far as the improvements the coilovers offer, well we can just go on for thread pages on end. The handling is improved dramatically over the stock suspension, even with those with a RSB. The suspension can be tuned for spring load, dampening and personalized ride height. The same system affords you the ability to transform your car from DD to a track car with a few easy and quick adjustments. As for bling factor, every time my car goes to the shop, the wrenches can't seem to stop talking about them. their addition to my DD has brought the handling pretty lose to what I had with my BMW's (minus a big portion of the comfort, which is a necessary part of the equation).

As far as a front sway bar, it's unnecessary in my book, since it's purpose is to bind both sides of the suspension in order to transfer the load to the traction tries. Thinking in an extreme situation, having your outer front tire lift off the ground would not be a good thing! Perhaps a very modest upgrade (i.e., SE FSB) might add improvement.

So Ill rate the mods as follows:
In order of Best Value (their own value on a 0-10 scale)
1. Coilovers (10)
2. RSB (8)
3. FSTB (4)
4. RSTB (2)
5. FSB (1)

Rating vs. Each Other:
Coilovers: 4
RSB: 3
FSTB: 1.5
RSTB: .5
FSB: 1

I think the coilovers make the RSTB and FSB - and arguably even the RSB unnecessary. The FSTB still serves a purpose, since the heavy front end is still suceptible to chasis flex. The rear not quite so, since there's much less weight back there.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

100% Agree with this. You can get Coils for around $1000, there's no combination of suspension modifications that will bring you ANYWHERE close to this drastic change. Not even close. if you want to modify your suspension on your maxima, don't spend a dime on other stuff, just save up for Coilovers. then if you want more, get the other stuff.

Having had a FSTB with and without Coilovers, under the same circumstances, without other variables, I can firmly say that your comment is false. The difference in my experience was pretty much the same with/without the FSTB with and without Coilovers. If this opinion were to be weighted one way or the other, I'd say the opposite, that the Coilovers MAKE the FSTB. Coils taking the bouncyness out, and the FSTB amplifying this by reducing body roll and twist, thus increasing steering response.

Thanks for clearing that up. Must've been the 23 stuck in my head. Either way, it only amplifies the question, doesn't it? If Nissan saw a point in only 1mm of Diameter increase for handling purposes, then there's surely something to this concept.

Not that we don't already know FSB's make a huge difference on any car.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

This is true, in that an incorrectly made/sized FSB could cause precisely the adverse effects you're talking about. As I said though, Sway bar modification is a fairly in-depth process, requiring a lot of R&D to do properly.

It's purpose is to allow a certain amount of regulated 'sway', that's about as easy as you can put it. It's far from binding anything, at all, quite the opposite, actually.

A maxima is by nature soft, sloppy, un-responsive, and so on. There's without a doubt a lot of room for improvement, and IMO, the FSB is as important a place to look as the RSB is to improve this.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Tons of room for improvement. But no matter what you do, it will still be the same chassis, with a huge turning radius, and FWD understeer.

As much as we love the Maxima, you and I both wanted something a little bit more than the Maxima can deliver, hence the smaller G.

EuroDriver

iTrader: (21)

I think that's what I said, or at least intended to say - with or without coilovers, the FSTB still helps avoid chasis flex. Whether an improvement is subjectively noticed or not, I'm sure the chasis appreciates the help.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Prophecy99

iTrader: (1)

can you swap Front Sway Bars from an SE to a GLE to get the perks?

(i admit i didnt search)

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Yes. You'll need bushings to match but the rest bolts right up no difference.

Get the Energy suspension ones, like $20

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Bar. (Singular) And that's not a bad idea. Find a FSB from a 2000 - 2004 SE at a junkyard, buy the 23mm FSB bushings, get some Moog End-Links, and you'll be grinning.

BobPezz

iTrader: (5)

A bit of history Tuner & our other Northern friends may find interesting.

A sway bar or anti-roll bar or stabilizer bar is a part of an automobile suspension that helps reduce the body roll of a vehicle during fast cornering or over road irregularities. It connects opposite (left/right) wheels together through short lever arms linked by a torsion spring. A sway bar increases the suspension's roll stiffness—its resistance to roll in turns, independent of its spring rate in the vertical direction. The first stabilizer bar patent was awarded to the Canadian S. L. C. Coleman of Fredericton, New Brunswick on April 22, 1919.

Overly technical & stuff we already know deleted for brevity.

Anti-roll bars provide two main functions. The first function is the reduction of body lean. The reduction of body lean is dependent on the total roll stiffness of the vehicle. Increasing the total roll stiffness of a vehicle does not change the steady state total load (weight) transfer from the inside wheels to the outside wheels, it only reduces body lean. The total lateral load transfer is determined by the CG height and track width.

The other function of anti-roll bars is to tune the handling balance of a car. Understeer or oversteer behavior can be tuned out by changing the proportion of the total roll stiffness that comes from the front and rear axles. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the front will increase the proportion of the total load transfer that the front axle reacts and decrease the proportion that the rear axle reacts. In general this will cause the outer front wheel to run at a comparatively higher slip angle, and the outer rear wheel to run at a comparatively lower slip angle, which is an understeer effect. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the rear axle will have the opposite effect and decrease understeer.