but the question still lies in "If you believe this incredible increase, why not but the Intake and dyno yourself to prove everyone wrong?"

the problem everyone has is that you cannot concede that it's a possibility that info from the manufacturer just may be bias.

 

I'm not real fond of hacking up the stock pieces. I think that would take away the asthetic value.

If I get a pop and seal it off from the engine I would have to open a hole somewhere on the body to let the cool air into the air chanmber. I still think a CAI is a good option to increase air flow.

 

Again, I would happily put you on my ignore list if you would promise to do the same for me.

 

I love this $**t.

 

When they say proprietary, they mean that there is no commercially available software for the general public to use, not some secret program. All that means is that they were unwilling to snap a quick picture of the run screen to include in their feature article.

Since you seem to be so stuck on the fact that AEM is not lying, I will go get one of the said intakes, and borrow a 6th gen from a local member. I will take pictures of everything, and post the runfile screenshots. This is a 04 SL bone stock. Now, if you are right, I will give you free donation status and send you the intake. If I am right, you send me the price of the intake and dyno time. Sound like a deal?

 

wtf u talking about? drugs are bad....mmkay?

 

This post is rockin

 

The results are proprietary, not the application.

Amongst other issues with this is that I already have donation status. The rest is just flame bait - I'm not biting.

 

but you receive a free double test proven CAI. and your donation runs out, he's offering lifetime, possibly a refund if you like.

don't be scurred. it's a superb offer for one so confident about somehting.
Do it! DO it! DO It! DO IT!!!!

I'll pay shipping if you win!

 

I would think that there would be someone on the board who would jump at this...but the parameters need to be laid down a little bit better.

What constitues you being "right"? I mean, if the intake showed only 9.99 peak HP increase and they claimed 10, would that be "right" or proven wrong?

In other words, you need to spell out what has to happen for you to be proven correct.

Now, I've been thinking about this a little bit, and it is quite possible that no one is fabricating anything. Maybe (not saying this happened...but it would explain it) when these people did their dynos the stock air filter just happened to be dirty...very dirty. That would account for things wouldn't it?

 

I would define everything before any monies would be exchanged. Im not here to screw anyone over...just teach a little bit.

 

Results are not proprietary, if that were true then they would have their own special measures for torque and horsepower that no other persons would be able to use. what a crock of $hit. As for your donation status, I will give your money back and then some. As for the rest.....chicken?

 

Ah, now we got down to it.

Uh huh ... keep talking

Hey, to teach you've got to know the subject material.

 

And to learn you have to listen to those in the know.

 

The information or results in this case are easily proprietary. The resulting information from the dyno is owned by, in this case, AEM.

...with you running the test... I'll look for a more qualified testing mechanism.

 

When when 'those who know' just got proven wrong ...

 

Assuming that the .Org is still in existance past the 25 years I'm already covered for.

Heh ... when he counters the links then I'll think about it.

 

Why would test results ever by prorietary? How would one sell anything if one couldn't show the results? Doesn't make sense at all.

 

 

Savagecat: Why is this so difficult for you to understand. This argument is as old as time itself, and each time someone like you comes along, they get proven wrong. Hell, one day long ago I was the same way, believing the numbers put out by manufacturers. Then I was challenged one day to dyno, and through the same logic that you are using, I figured I was putting down some real horsepower. However those dreams were soon shattered by the utterly weak performance. I figured from stock (My automatic dynoed 197/214) from my dyno, adding my intake would give me the advertised 16whp that injen found over the stock airbox. I was severely dissapointed with the fact that Id lost .04hp and gained .4ft-lbs. Thats all, basically for all we know it could ahve been a small % of error between the runs and there was no difference whatsoever. We tried the test again after letting the engine cool (thinking it could have been heat soak) and the results were literally identical.

Years later, after hundreds of pulls on all kinds of different machines, and every mod under the sun short of camshafts and built internals.....I THINK I might have an idea or two about what is real, and what isnt. If you still dont think I am telling you the truth, why dont you go to the all motor forum and take a peek and maybe post a question or two. If you still think I am wrong, I will again invite you to go get the results yourself from a dynojet shop. Hell, I will even give you the testing procedure and how to set up the graphs so that everyone is comparing apples to apples.

Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?

 

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6...runfile6di.jpg


and here is a link in case it doesnt work

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6...runfile6di.jpg



These are the dyno plots I got (overlaid) before/after installing my injen CAI so that you can see what difference a CAI actually makes.

Now, here are the injen "dynos"



If the numbers were indeed true, then why didnt I gain anything. I called them and their car was a stock 02 manual, mine is a stock 03 auto. All mods the same, the only differences being manual vs automatic. Also, the injen graph offers no information as to whether or not the #s are SAE corrected, for all we know they coulda been inside an airconditioned shop with temps in the 60s. My graph shows that there is SAE correction being used, with a smoothing factor of 3. More info on that here, here, and here.

Lets see something more from you than, "they printed it so it must be true"

 

Two similar setups were tested. And although the results were not identical, they were close. Your holdup is that you don't like how the results were presented.

 

My "holdup" is that the results are FAKE

 

I'm starting to wonder myself.

The only thing is, it was have to be a lot of payola. I mean, every magazine that tests these things claim they make power, not just the manufacturer themselves.

Still....I never have received a reply from Nissan Performance Magazine...hmmm.

 

Its not payola, most of these mags dont even do the testing themselves. They let the ppl from that company do the work, and then they publish their "numbers".

 

There's a dyno out there for the AEM CAI V2 or whatever for 2003+ Accord V6 6spds.

http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/24-...20V2%20CHP.pdf

It shows about 200 whp stock and 220 whp with the intake and a "gain" of 20. As soon as I saw that a few years ago I LMAO because people were dynoing these cars at 212-217 whp STOCK. There was a huge discussion about this on www.v6performance.net/ If the cars average 215 whp stock then why the fawk was this one showing only 200? And with 220 with the intake, wow you gain a whole "couple" of horsepower. But wait, there's more. Lets look at track results. People run those cars low/mid-14's @ 95-97 mph stock. With an intake what do they run? About the same! If it was "really" adding 20hp/15tq then they would be pushing high-13's with 100+ traps but guess what, THEY AIN'T!

It doesn't matter to me that they don't show the actual dynos and it's just an Excel chart. Even if they showed the actual dynos there are still PLENTY of ways to rig dynos to get the results you're looking for. On that particular Accord they could have....

- dynoed baseline on 87 octane and put 93 in for the "intake"
- run low tire pressure baseline but crank them up for the intake run
- just not go WOT on the baseline, lol
- fudge the actual settings on the dyno (drum mass)
- fudge the temperature settings to skew the SAE corrections
- I could keep going all day long...

Despite all of the evidence showing what a crock of shia that dyno is though, there are STILL morons out there that honestly believe they're going to gain 20 whp from this thing and whip out their credit cards and spend $300+ on some stupid filter on a tube that in reality is maybe only gaining you a whopping 3-5 whp if even that, not friggin 20. Even V8s don't gain 20 whp from intakes and this is a little 3.0L V6 we're talking about...lols.

<long philosophical rant>

It simply amazes me how even after something has been shot so full of holes with information to the contrary that people will STILL argue and defend their sinking ship right to the very bitter end. Some people just can't be convinced of anything. Who are WE to be questioning "reputable" companies like Injen or AEM. Our analysis are flawed. Our technical knowledge no matter how extensive is flawed. We don't know what we're talking about. blah blah blah.... ANYTHING but that stupid vendor dyno being wrong. People have their rigid value systems and beliefs in place and simply cannot see things from any other perspective or question any motive. This is how magazine racers get so confused about automotive performance when they refuse to believe or accept the FACT that magazine times can be ridiculously random and are a poor way to make "absolute" judgements about performance. This is how so many Honda owners can be so ridiculously ignorant about engines and the various ways to design them when they just dismiss anything on principle that doesn't have higher HP/L than they do. HP/L ruelz, nothing else matters. Period. Nevermind the fact that some of the most technically advanced, powerful, and efficient engines in the world will not necessarily have high HP/L figures. Or what a dyno comparison between a 240hp VQ35 and a 240hp Honda 3.0 will show. And finally, this is how people with Civics (and Accords, and Maximas, and *insert car here*) get totally ripped off when they see manufacturer or "performance rag" dynos for things with ridiculously optimistic, skewed, or flat out FUDGED data claiming 30 whp gains from I/E on a D17 SOHC Civic! Mags and manufacturers would not lie - they're "reputable". Uh-huh... nevermind the fact that your car is no faster now than it was before, or in the least case certainly not "30 whp" faster. But nonetheless, they refuse to question, and its sad to see people slap this high-$$$ garbage on their cars just to not get anywhere even remotely close to the "advertised" gains. The primary motive of aftermarket companies and "tuning rags" is to move product and MAKE MONEY. Being honest is a low priority. How many $300 intakes do you think these companies would sell if their advertised gains showed 2 whp instead of 20 whp. It's all in their heads, and not at the wheels.

This thread is now on page 7 (40 ppp) and where has it gone? Nowhere. It's a classic SJ vs NT temperament conflict in a technical discussion. Everytime, it goes nowhere. The iNtuitive Thinker has looked at things from all perspectives, set aside any and all pre-conceived notions, values, or biases, objectively analyzed all data, has seen the light, has come to a conclusion (even if they don't like what they discovered, that their $300 intake did not do jack sh*t), and has gained knowledge and understanding on something and is attempting to share with others. Meanwhile the SJ sees what this "lunatic" NT is saying and it goes against their highly rigid belief and value system (that mag times never lie, higher HP/L is always "teh best", and vendor/mag dynos never lie) and threatens their sense of security and are offended and argue back, yet never really offer any hard evidence. It's purely subjective, and a total stalemate and waste of bandwidth. I would have locked this bish long ago.

Unfortunately for the SJ here (should not be too hard to figure out who is who), you're screwed. Things that NTs are able to figure out in a whole 5 minutes can take an SJ 5 years to realize, if they ever figure it out at all. This is why NTs RULE in the technical world. The sad thing is, SJs out number NTs by about a 10:1 margin. SJs always tend to think they're right because they have strength in numbers and a lot of other people agreeing with them too. But this also results in a "groupthink" mentality so it's fun to watch herds of people blindly jump off cliffs. Let them be wrong. Let them waste their money. Let them continue to shoot themselves in the foot and be confused. Let that Honduh owner continue adding mod after mod after mod focusing on increasing power above 5k (peak horsepower) and be confused when they're no faster because they simply cannot and will not realize that a strong dose of TORQUE in the low-end and mid-range is what they really needed all along. Let that intake buyer believe that they "really are" gaining 20 whp.

When it comes to technical discussions about cars, the ONLY people I'm interested in talking to are other NTs. SPs are great too (very skilled and hands-on, but a bit less technical). When there are disagreements or conflicting information, SJs really just need to keep their mouths shut and listen to what other people are saying. You simply don't have the natural ability to analyze things as thoroughly and objectively as NTs do because your rigid beliefs and value systems tend to get in the way and are more important to you than discovering "The Truth". NFs tend not to have an interest in topics like these as a whole.

Friggin ESTJs mahn... So pointless to argue with people like these. In the technical world, intuitives rule. Sorry, it's just the truth. Shut up, stop posting, start listening, and stop wasting org bandwidth. Floods of SJs that have found their way onto these forums in recent years that have very strong opinions and argue about things they no nothing about are a big part of why fewer truly knowledgeable people bother posting on forums like these anymore. We get tired of your sh*t. I'd rather go read some more technical papers from the SAE library on various automotive technologies or another textbook than try to convince some lame opinionated completely non-intuitive SJ that 1+1=2, not 3. Then at least I'm still learning more for myself (productive and enjoyable), whereas if I waste my time here I'm still not teaching anybody anything, and not learning anything new myself. (non-productive and a total waste of time).


</long philosophical rant>


Steve
- INTP


To those of you have have no idea WTF I'm talking about when I say "NT" or "SJ"... Go HERE first to figure out what you are, then go do some reading here, here, and here.

Oh, and I have no problems with SJs (I'm married to one) except when they try to tell a highly technical and well-researched person that they're wrong, and that 1+1 really equals 3, like what's happening here.

 

Or, heatsoak the car to get a few low runs then post the lowest of the bunch. Then post the highest of another bunch of idea conditions.

 

yup, that's another dirty trick.

 

This is the one I thought of when I saw the Injen Dyno that E55 showed me, when compared to his.

 

How do you get NT and SJ? I see
ISTJ
Introvert Sensing Thinking Judging or
ENFP
Extrovert INtuitive Feeling Perceiving

BTW I got ENFP.

 

Try this one...

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

and

http://www.personalitypage.com/four-prefs.html

 

WTF I took it again and got ISTJ, took that other one and got an INTP, I think we're gettng somewhere.

 

Slow down and take your time to really think about and reflect on some of the questions. Answer how you really are, not how you'd like to be or how you think you should be. And I bet your percentages are pretty low which makes it difficult to type you. I actually have split personalities and temperaments.

I'm highly introverted (80%), and highly intuitive (90%) and that's what defines me. But between Thinking/Feeling I'm split at about 0% and the same with Perceiving/Judging. So that makes me either a Rational INTP/INTJ or an Idealist INFP/INFJ.

My philosophical rant was more along the lines of my TJ side.

 

I ended up with 88% going to Thinking both times. 3rd time, really slow...got
Your Type is
ENTJ
Extroverted Intuitive Thinking Judging
11 25 88 22

I believe this to be the most valid, especially since i got 88% 3x in thinking

Sorry for the talk, carry on with the intake battle

 

ah yes, a fellow NT.


nah, the intake battle is just

I'm jacking the thread now to temperament and personality discussion.

 

Take a look at the BMW DINAN page... their 4000 dollar intake and exhaust + software adds a whole 9 horsepower to the M5. This all shows its for the sound and no go! How long does it take for people to understand this???

 

There you go again with you bmw non sense....

 

This is why I don't have an intake. I put my faith in Nissan engineers who stand behind the performance claims and write the warrenty, they are the ones whose job it is to maintain a competitive advantage in the marketplace. Aftermarket companies offer too much hype and eveyrone wants people to believe there is a chained beast under the hood that can be released for a couple $100. This may be so in some cars, not in the flooded $30,000 sport/luxury segment. All I needed to read is the Sport Compact Car article for confirmation on these parts, especially on just an intake.

 

The M5 does not need improvement, DINAN is just making something for those who need to have everything, regardless of its real benifit.

 

And a way for Steve Dinan to have more money than he knows what to do with