i think car makers should understand times are changing and people these days love options. the fact the nissan made a "four door sports car" without the option of a cvt Manuel tranny like the one in the Z was a poor marketing decision on there end. sales could have been way higher cause the car it self is fantastic. great power for a non turbo fwd boat. i love my 2010 sv with the sport package but would have loved it so much more if it came stick.

 

Actually, sales of the Maxima with manual would have not been good. Nissan fought that battle for years, and the public never responded. Manual Maxima sales dropped right through the late 1990s, and continued dropping into the new millenium. By 2004, dealers would not even accept manual Maximas from Nissan, because they couldn't give them away.

The Maxima is a near-luxury family sedan with a sporty edge. The 4DSC is referring to that sporty edge. But the Maxima is NOT a sports car, while the Z is NOTHING BUT a sports car.

The percentage of the population that can drive manuals has diminished drastically in recent years, and many of the folks that might have preferred a manual will have drivers in their family that do not drive manuals.

Another factor against the manual is the ever-increasing congestion. It is no fun driving a manual when your top speed rarely exceeds 15 to 25 MPH, and you are always inching along on the rear bumper of another vehicle as is the case in more and more areas of the country.

The final straw is the impending very high government fuel efficiency regulations arriving very soon. Manuals are now less efficient than either automatics (which can now have up to 8 speeds) or CVTs (which will get better even better fuel efficiency as they are perfected).

There will always be a limited demand for manuals by those who still carry fond memories from an earlier era. A diminishing number of vehicles will cater to that demand. Yes, I miss manuals, but Nissan would have been very foolish to waste money making that mistake yet again with the Maxima.

 

That was a great post. I especially related to - "The Maxima is a near-luxury family sedan with a sporty edge. The 4DSC is referring to that sporty edge. But the Maxima is NOT a sports car" - part of the post.

I was really surprised when first visiting this site how many people criticized some of the features that weren't up to "race car" standards on this car. I personally don't consider any car with 4 doors a "sports car. Of coarse back in the 60's I never considered anything with 4 doors a "muscle car" either.

Having said all that, the reason we bought Max was because of the "sporty edge". There are lots of choices out there for creature comfort and luxury options but none that we found had the combination that Max offered. This is our first Nissan so the jury is still out on how we like it in the long run but so far it's been great.

 

First off, I think the CVT is a great transmission for 98% of people who want a efficient, fast, sporty family saloon car. It delivers great fuel economy, and when in DS mode, it can be pretty fun/sporty to drive. It's also full of technology, and great to ride in. And I do like the look (albeit, its a bit large) I have driven one (my grandpa has a 2011 SV Sports Package which I drove from San Diego to UT with him) and I liked it. It's much better than the CVT in my dads 2008 Prius (obviously).

BUT - it still doesnt offer the conected-ness and feeling of a old fashioned manual tranny. There is NOTHING like rowing through the gears of my 04 WRX. I agree that the current-day Maxima isn't the best car for a manual transmission, but I am kinda dissappointed with the direction Nissan has taken the car. The A32 maximas were by far the best IMHO, I think it was in 1998 or 1999 that Motor Trend tested an SE with a manual and it went from 0-60 in less than 6 seconds I believe? Pretty impressive for a cheap FWD Nissan...

IMO if I was in the market for a mid-size 4-door family car with a "sporty edge" I'd get a Subaru Legacy GT. But thats just me
With that said, lets petition Nissan to add AWD and maybe a manual option, and I'd be right back in a Maxima

 

'Round and 'round and 'round we go . . .


Look down below about . . . . . here ↓↓↓ . . . the LGT is pretty good but could stand a little more shock damping (particularly rear rebound).


Norm

 

Nissan does have an AWD and a RWD Manual max, it's called the G35 Sedan. If Nissan makes the max with the same driveline configuration as their Luxury brand there would be no competition, and no one would have to spend 50+ grand on the Infinity line, that's actually smart marketing which to make money you have to do, i would say no matter the petition Nissan will just tell those to buy a G35/37, lol and if you don't wanna spend the money on that then i guess you don't want AWD bad enough. I have been in the g35 sedan and own a max and sitting behind the drivers seat it's 99% identical with very very few minor differences, built on the same chassis, very similar body styling, honestly same car IMO.

Now, the CVT is a great transmission, i have been a stick driver for 10+ years and yes there isn't anything like slamming through gears, but the paddle shifters do just fine for that old stick feeling, except now i don't have to push a clutch, SO ANNOYING IN TRAFFIC BTW, and get to keep my hand on the wheel and eyes on the road.... The GTR is equipped with a CVT as well, they handle power well, and are just as fun to drive IMO except i've never seen any driver using a stick shift in 0.15 seconds therefore stick vs SVT in the same car SVT WILL ALWAYS WIN. There is a reason that some of the fastest race cars don't have clutch pedals... look at F1 cars, keeps the drivers focused on the road and handling the car vs worrying about timing the clutch right and hunting for the right gear.

The second gen of CVT's are much better and vastly improved over the first gen, and if you are worried about it breaking BUY A WARRANTY.... I bought one with my car and it's actually almost paid for itself as my P/S pump went out ($652 part OE nissan + labor another few hundred, i think the bill was for $9xx), for just over 1600 dollars 125K warranty bumper to bumper!!! $1600 is about the price of an A/C system going out in the shop these days, i've had to replace a transmission before (in another car) and $1600 bux wouldn't cover half of it, so to not have any deductible and not worry about anything but putting gas in the car for 125k miles, the warranties dealers offer you are WELL WORTH IT so buy a warranty if you are THAT worried about stuff breaking (which is gonna happen in ANY CAR) , plus to buy a $42,000 ('12 SV with premium + tech) car and not buy a warranty is plain stupid, $1600(or so depending on dealer) stretched over a 5-6 year loan term changes your payment about 10-15 dollars.


Anyway I absolutely LOVE my CVT in this car, definitely takes getting used to but it's the best tranny overall, luxurious smooth ride when you need it, and fun when you want it. BTW just thought about this but as regular tranny's get high mileage the jerk you around or grind (manuals) while CVT is nice and smooth until it goes out, which like any other man/auto tranny can/will happen eventually, but when it does my warranty will cover it except i paid 1/3rd of the price of what a tranny costs up front when i bought the car.....

 

Heard only bad things about cvt but after test driving and buying one. Love it.

 

Just got mine--2012 SV, Winter Frost over Cafe Latte. Traded in my BMW 328i coupe with a 6-speed manual. Big change for me, as I've only driven manual cars (and mostly RWD cars) for 20 years.

So far, I love the car. The CVT is much better than a regular automatic, which always frustrates me for not being in the right gear. The CVT always has the right ratio and gives smooth, seamless power.

Looking forward to many years of happy motoring in the Max. Got her tinted today--looks great!

 

Okay, bottom line. I'm about 3 days away from pulling the trigger on a '11 Maxima and the only thing I'm questioning is the CVT. Love the car itself, but with no history with a CVT I'm apprehensive. I drive mainly highways and need to be able to jump from 60 to 80 pretty quickly (damn Midwestern drivers)... Am I going to be left wanting another Accord?

 

One of the most frequent complaints about the 7th gen Maxima CVT is that it seems to leave the Maxima a little slow from a standing stop. There is a CVT programming TSB that a few here have had done, and they say that TSB really makes a difference in accellerating from a standing stop.

But the truly prime feature of this CVT-powered Maxima is accelleration in the midrange. This car will jump from 40 to 80 before a lightning bug can blink twice. I have pulled out to pass in a short passing zone, jammed the pedal down, and scared myself with how fast this car can accellerate in such situations.

 

I was wondering to myself on how I would compensate for the lack of an overdrive button on the shifter, how to get the max in that passing gear to get it going. The salution is simple as I would discovered. Just step on the gas and you will find that you are in the right gear all the time. No lag, best auto ever.

 

Totally agree. I've been driving nothing but manuals for years and this was the first automatic I've ever liked for exactly the same reason you mention--it's always in the right gear at the right time. Very fun car!

 

This is exactly what the 7th Gen Maxima does very well. If anything people in your family will be left wanting a Maxima too.

 

Manual > CVT, no matter what car it's in...

The CVT needs to go. If I were faced with only an automatic, I rather have the conventional auto, or something like the PDK double-clutch automatic that Porsche uses. Having driven Porsche's four door car, the Panamera, I can say that this transmission is excellent.

Since there are several different types of CVT's on the market now, repairs for these transmissions after expired warranties over the years are probably going to be expensive. Even with a conventional automatic, which has been around for decades, are expensive to rebuild and overhaul, averaging around $1,500-2,000 dollars.

A transmission shop, such as Aamco, doesn't rebuild transmissions. They send them out to be done on an exchange basis. Here where I live, all the busted trans's go to a place called American Transmission, which overhauls and rebuilds them for hundreds of shops here in the southeast area.

Since there are different types of CVT's, I can only imagine higher repair and rebuild costs, since transmission technicians will have to have additional schooling and training to rebuild and overhaul them.

Would I buy a used car out of warranty with a CVT? No way... Until or unless CVT's become the new standard over the years, I don't want to pay those high repair costs.

 

I'll agree with your first point, but not the second.

Just because a CVT doesn't mesh very well with your driving or your personality does not mean that it can't fit those of many other people.

It will always be a case of "different strokes for different folks".


BTW, double-clutch automatic transmission repairs are unlikely to come cheaply either, even if the car does not wear the Porsche crest.

BTW #2 - do you remember or know what Porsche's 'Sportomatic' transmission was?


Norm

 

It's not necessarily that a CVT doesn't match my driving or my personality, it's more on how they feel while driving. It just feels, odd... Don't know how else to describe it.

And yes, I'm familiar with the old Sportomatic transmissions, I have driven a few of them. In concept, they're interesting, but not fun to drive considering the sporty nature of the 911. More of a chore than anything. If you put any pressure on the shifter, it will pop out of gear. They do take some getting used to in order to drive one effectively, especially in a sporty nature.

 

I'm pretty much with Norm on trannies.

When I lived in southern Arizona, my manual was by far the most fun of any tranny I could have driven. At that time, I assumed I would always be driving a manual.

That was over fifty years ago. Having driven in Atlanta area traffic for the last four decades, grinding along in gridlock that moves thirty feet (on a very good day), stops, moves thirty more feet, stops, and continues that for mile after mile after mile, I began to have physical problems with my left knee and right elbow because of my short ratio five speed Datsun 200SX. Between 1000 and 2000 shifts every day will do that.

As long as I am in gridlock traffic (which is becoming more common across the country), I can't see me driving a manual again.

As with most folks, I waited until I felt the Maxima had a good CVT before considering buying one. And I will admit the CVT takes getting used to. I made myself like the CVT because physics tells me that a tranny that does not have to shift will theoretically give better fuel efficiency and better accelleration than trannies that do shift, once it is perfected.

The CVT is not yet perfect, but I have grown to love being able to move my car along at very low RPMs simply by being careful when, how and where I use the accellerator pedal.

I fully understand the CVT doesn't offer the same romantic feeling we had about manuals in the old days, but it has aready proven it can save fuel, and that is one of the first things looked at by auto makers these days. As the price of fuel passes $6 a gallon (and it soon will), I think the preponderance of drivers will also be looking for efficient trannies.

Just my opinion.

 

That's part of what I was getting at re: "personality". Yours vs its. If it was completely in step with you as the right dance partner would be it wouldn't feel odd at all but completely natural. I don't know if this will develop over time or not.


Hmmm. I was under the impression that pressure on the shifter disengaged the clutch, and that something along that line could be developed.

That crosses my mind maybe a couple times a year when something in my left knee - or perhaps because not all of everything is still there any more - wakes it up for no apparent reason. So far, this doesn't particularly interfere with my driving, but on the occasions when it hurts to climb stairs I have to wonder just how much longer that'll continue be the case. I'm not at all ready to "bail" over to a 2-pedal car at this point.


Norm

 

This is what I was trying to say. Popping out of gear probably wasn't an accurate way to describe it.

 

I recently had a go in a 2012 M37 rental with the 7-speed auto. It felt quicker and more immediate than the Max up to 40 or so. Past that, it seemed to run out of steam, and it was odd feeling the engine repeatedly pass the power peak.

I didn't detect any bad habits or undue hesitation like I did with a 2009 G37 with an earlier version of that transmission. It was better at coasting than the Max. The strong vibration from the CVT around 1500 RPM in reverse was completely absent, as was the more subtle vibration in that range in Drive.

Based on this experience, I'm ambivalent. I don't think the Max would be any better or worse with the 7-speed, just different. And I think a stick would be utterly unsuited to the car's character.

 

You have to think that as conventionally shifting automatics continue to add more discrete "gears" that they're closing in on what a CVT does anyway.


Whether a MT would be suited to the car's character is more of an individual view on how the car fits into the rest of his lifestyle or personality. Cadillac apparently thinks that a near-luxury V6 sedan with MT is still a viable combination (http://www.cadillac.com/cts-sport-sedan.html), and BMW has always been there. The question might be whether there's enough room for one more player in that niche.


Norm

 

My Maxima doesn't have the Sport package. The suspension tuning is soft. I think the car would be too easy to upset with a stick. The ATS, 3-series, and CTS have much better body control and weight distribution.

 

If you drive it like you're trying to advance to the next round at the dragstrip . . . sure.

A little more spring and a little more damping would better suit a MT version (and the drivers who would prefer it enough to put their money where their internet posts are as well).


Norm

 

I had to laugh because I bought an SV Max a week ago and didn't even know what a CVT was. Obviously I should have found this forum before signing in the dotted line, but it is what it is.

I traded in an older E-class Mercedes that had a traditional 5-speed automatic. In comparison, I love the way the CVT operates. If I want to use Sport mode, it is there. But for normal cruising, the CVT works fine for me...but I never liked manual shifting for the same reasons lightonthehill mentioned in the thread above.

 

IMO, the CVT is crap for my taste. In theory its a great tool, but in reality it takes away from the fun of driving. When i saw that Nissan was selling the 7th gen as the return of the 4DSC, I had to laugh when I noticed it only has a CVT option. I think the Altima is the last 4DSC that Nissan has made, but even that now only has a CVT, so that is gone out the door. I'm beyond happy that I bought a 6spd Altima while they were still being made.

 

It is good you grabbed while you could, as the manual is now the least efficient tranny, and government fuel efficiency requirements are increasing at a frightening rate. By 2025, the fleet average for each manufacturer must reach 55 MPG. It will be very difficult for any manufacturer to reach 55 MPG with a manual tranny vehicle.

Take good care of your manual Altima. It may be a relic from the past a little sooner than any of us thought.

 

Screw Everything else lets start putting some 7-8 Speed MANUALS in our cars. No but seriously CVT is such a joke I test drove an Altima with it I was so extremely disappointed I basically took the fastest test drive ever recorded at the Nissan Dealer. Then i went ahead and test drove a Coupe Altima with the 6 speed manual that was fun. Manual > CVT or any other transmission for that fact FOR EVER.

 

sounds good man, enjoy that Altima.

 

Actually, a 7-8 speed manual only makes the manual tranny less efficient in areas where other traffic is around, because there will be even more shifting than with a 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 speed manual, and with every shift, there is a second or so where the engine is running, but not propelling the car forward. Once the CVT is perfected (and it is already very efficient), neither the fuel efficiency nor the accelleration of a manual of any number of gears will equal that of the CVT.

Put another way, an 8 speed manual on the route I used to take to work would probably require well over a thousand shifts each morning and the same number each evening, with the top speed seldom passing 25 MPH. If that is fun for you, please do it. I did it with my 5 speed manual Datsun from 1978 till 1984, and still have problems with my right elbow and left knee from those miserable days.

I loved my manual Studebaker in the late 1940s, and enjoyed manuals when I lived in Arizona in the late 1950s and early 1960s. But with today's growing gridlock in ever-expanding areas of the country, that world no longer exists for many folks. Sad but true.

 

I'd seen this earlier and been thinking on it a bit. Partly trying to remember what it was like to be about, ummm, 17. It's running a bit longer than I thought it would, so I hope you'll eventually read through it all.

Light has covered the efficiency side, I'll just mention that lift-throttle upshifts tend to cause a brief spike in the HC emissions and will cause the car mfrs to avoid having to make unnecessary shifts during the EPA certification process. If the EPA doesn't bless it, you won't be able to buy it.

Then you have to drive it.

Time to do a little speeds in gears and rpms math as a sanity check on that. Lose the image of 'glamour' that you might associate with having more gears to choose from and imagine actually using it in daily driving.

Don't forget that you'd have to build this for some "average" manual transmission driver, not a handful of race car driver wanna-be's. Suicide in the marketplace for those who build at mass-market pricing to best suit just a very few buyers comes to mind.

You need one gear to make starting up from a standstill easy for you and easy on the clutch.

Another to take care of slow speed driving in traffic that never quite stops. EFI is pretty tolerant about the engine running at low revs, so 2nd doesn't have to be all that close to 1st for the situations that most drivers encounter.

Beyond that, there isn't any real need for more than four more unless your car honestly has ~200 mph capability - meaning that you'd have the power to cover for a really tall overdrive for those 100+ mph runs (never mind where you might even get to do that).

I'm probably out there in the 0.1% most hardcore when it comes to preferring a manual transmission. Been that way since . . . more than likely before your Daddy played with Hot Wheels cars on the kitchen floor. I can tell you, you'd get sick of feeling like you should be making that many shifts just to get up to normal traffic speed. And if you skip over some gears most of the time, similar to what GM and Ford have forced on their V8/MT drivers under mild driving conditions via electronic means, what's the point of even having them? Same goes if you never use the top two or three of them. Might as well just have a 6-speed and etch your own 7-8 gate onto the shift **** for appearance sake . . .


Maybe the bottom line here is for the car to be enjoyable to drive under as many conditions as possible. It isn't - or shouldn't be - about the mechanical spec numbers themselves.

Light and I both remember driving when most manual transmissions had only 3 forward speeds and 4 was a lot.

Of my own cars, which now all have at least 5-speed boxes, none of them are truly badly equipped.

The Mazda's 5-speed is very well suited to its speed capability (though it's a little soft coming off slow turns at autocross).

The Malibu's and the Mustang's gearing is spaced a little wider in the upper gears than I prefer, but with 5.8 and 4.6 liters worth of torque they can get away with it under nearly all situations. I'll remind you about cars having to be built for some 'average' owner, not necessarily an autocrosser or road course junkie. Six would be fine.

My wife's now 2 year old Subie has a 6-speed, the gear to gear spacing is very good, and I haven't yet found a situation where adding another gear would improve things overall. Nor to the best of my knowledge has she (I think I'd have heard about it by now if she had ).


Norm

 

Have fun being a Tool.

The 7-8 speed thing was a joke. If there was any upside to it they would have done it 10 years ago when they finally realized that a 6speed with the correct ratio is better than a 5speed and should be used in all implementations of a standard transmission on personal transport. My father still talks about how he was young driving his first ever car a 64 Impala with a Standard transmission Column shifter and how cool it was back then but how in NYC it could be a drag at time but he and everybody else thought it was just to cool to give up. The CVT isn't that bad in the 4cyl vehicles its implemented in, but in the 4 Door sports car that is the maxima it just doesn't belong. Not yet anyways.

 

Thanks for the kind words regarding the 7th generation Maxima being a 4DSC. You are more generous than most with that remark.

The first five generations of the Maxima did indeed have somewhat of a legitimate claim to being 4DSCs. I know Nissan still puts that 4DSC sticker in the left rear passenger door window of 7th gen Maximas, but I think the 7th gen Maxima is more of a four door upscale family sedan with agressive styling, a fine engine and a 'sporty' edge than it is a 4DSC.

With the CVTs I test-drove up through 2008 models, just like you, I was totally unimpressed with them. I would never have bought a Maxima with a CVT like those.

But the CVT in the 7th gen Maxima is easily the best CVT I have driven. It seems to be better programmed to be at the right RPMs in any driving situation. When trying to pass in a short passing zone, the CVT gets my '09 Maxima from 40 MPH to 80 MPH in around 5 or 6 seconds, which really pushes me back in my seat.

It took me a year to get used to this CVT, and now that I have driven it for over three years, I have come to like it a lot. I miss the manuals of my youth, but times have changed. More importantly, there are a hundred times as many vehicles on the highway now as there were when I began driving in the late 1940s. And far too often, they are just sitting in gridlock, not moving. A manual just isn't as much fun in today's miserable traffic.

 

Norm - Thanks for your continuing thoughts on trannies. I always enjoy reading your prespective on things, as you are way deep into trannies and their applications.

 

The 4dsc sticker won't even be noticed by most, so I don't anticipate too many debates in parking lots (unlike putting an AMG badge on a Mercedes that is not an AMG, for instance). 'Sports car' is a subjective term, for sure. For autox enthusiasts, it is not. For someone used to a minivan, it is.

I think the car is capable as a sedate daily driver, and a touch of fun when nobody is around. A balanced, "sporty-ish" car, if you will.

I can tell you that my friend who drives a $150,000 CL600 Mercedes (twin-turbo V12) was impressed with the movement of the Max with 4 adults in the car.

One thing I wonder, Lightonthehill, since I have no clue how a CVT works, would it be possible to upgrade the workings via software upgrade as they improve the computed controls?

 

Possible? I'm sure it is possible, but actually getting it done could be a difficult thing. I say it is possible because the early 7th gens ('09 and maybe the '10) had a service bulletin out wherin the CVT could be reprogrammed to be quicker off the line, and not have that droning effect at driving speeds. Those here on the ORG who had that service bulletin work done to their car said the difference off the line (starting from standstill) was noticably improved.

 

I doubt that unrealistic fuel economy legislation standard will stick around, and will probably be thrown out by the next presidential election, or at least the one after that. The only way a manufacturer can get a 55mpg average for their entire fleet is if they make Smart car sized vehicles with little 40 horsepower 2 cylinder diesel engines.

 

There may be some adjustment made by congress, but the reality is that we are now seriously moving into alternate energy areas, and the days of mostly gas-only transportation will eventually be gone.

That movement is already well underway. Eventually, electric vehicles will become practical (longer range, easier recharging at lots of convenient places, etc). All manufacturers are now coming out with hybrids of their biggest selling vehicles, and research is underway for building mass-produced vehicles that run on natural gas.

Manufacturers are also making smaller vehicles. Many drivers say they have to have a big SUV, and some situations do fit a large SUV. But I see thousands of gas-sucking big SUVs everywhere, and there is usually one person in them, and when I see them parked, there is almost never any cargo inside, or a hitch with which to pull a trailer.

When I ask my many neighbors and friends why they need 12 MPG SUVs, they say they just feel safer in them. I do see quite a few morbidly obese drivers gettin into and out of big SUVs, and I can accept that they just won't be comfortable in a smaller vehicle. Of course the new fuel efficiency regulations will probably also stiffen the gas guzzler tax to the point that 12 MPH vehicles will have thousands of dollars in extra fees tacked onto the initial selling price.

Another thing I am seeing is that manufacturers are finding ways to cut the weight of vehicles by using aluminum, polycarbonates, etc. As the CVT is steadily improved, it offers better fuel efficiency, whether tied to a gasoline engine or other forms of power.

Four dollar (or higher) gas is going to be the norm. Any offshore drilling or additional gas we could produce in the US would simply go into the world market, and would have almost no effect on our gas prices. The problem is that hundreds of millions of folks in China, India, Brazil, etc, that have never owned a car are now buying them, and those countries are using a far greater percentage of the world supply. The only real answer is to need less gasoline. And that is what we will eventually have to do, no matter which political party is in power.

 

Just an FYI guys, the Gseries is are Nissan Skylines, not Maximas.


MANUAL>CVT>AUTO

 

To some extent, that's code for "I don't want to take full responsibility for my own safety", a rather pessimistic view with respect to their own emergency driving skill set, and a denial that a little practice at hard braking and hard cornering every once in a while just might be worth the few fluid ounces of gasoline spent (it's not wasted if you learn anything useful from it).


Norm

 

Could not agree more. Going further, I sense that some of those 6,000 pound SUV drivers are essentially saying their wellbeing in an accident is more important than the wellbeing of the poor suckers in the smaller (more fuel efficient) vehicle with which they have collided.

I suppose it is mere coincidence, but the only two accidents I have been in during the last twenty years were both caused by big SUV (one was a Surbuban and the other was a Tahoe) drivers not paying attention to their driving. One changed lanes without looking, and the other ran a red light, and both admitted to being on their cell phones (but only after I told the investigating officer I saw them on their phones). The Surbaban driver actually lied and said she had the green light, but two other drivers sitting at that light told the officer I had the green.

I think you nailed it when you suggested many of those who drive big SUVs do so because they, either consciously or unconsciously, are aware they are not very good drivers, so opt for more weight on their side.