It's not the car, per se.

If anything, it's frustration at seeing yet another more domino having fallen (and there weren't very many left in that segment of the market). Maxima had been one of the "holdouts", keeping a MT option available while most of the direct competitors dropped theirs.

It's frustration that in a larger view of the automotive market, vehicle availability is essentially saying "once you move up and out of the econobox segment, you're not supposed to even want to drive a car with a MT if you want/need four doors".


Norm

 

I got my wife an '09 Sentra last year and was so impressed with its' CVT tranny that it influenced me to get a 2010 Maxima this year. It was a close decision against the Infinity G37, but the Infinity did not offer a CVT or I'd have bought it instead.

 

I think you will enjoy the Maxima CVT. For most folks, the CVT takes some adjustment, but you have probably already begun that adjustment on the Sentra. Driving a CVT is NOT just dropping the car into drive and mashing the pedal (althought it works fine that way also); There all all kinds of little nuances and tweaks with how you use accelerator pedal pressure and timing that you will gradually pick up and enjoy using.

 

Actually, the benefit is much more of a continuous thing than what happens (or doesn't) during the brief upshift/downshift occurrences.

An internal combustion engine is neither a constant torque device nor a constant efficiency machine. Nor is driving really a constant speed task (let's agree to leave cruise control out of this, as it isn't perfect efficiencywise either). Hence, the trick to optimizing either of those aspects is to let the engine run at the points where the desired characteristic is optimized. Running at either higher or lower rpms than where the applicable 'peak' occurs means that you're giving away something, and that's something that an engine driving through any gearbox with discrete ratios cannot avoid being forced to do.

Think of a CVT as having the potential for "keeping the engine at its sweetest spot" where a tranny with specific ratios has to settle for closeness of adjacent ratios to stay within a reasonably sweet rpm range (the 1st to 2nd gear spacing in most 5-speed manual trannies is positively horrible in this respect).



Before it got merged, I only saw this separate thread because it floated to the top.


Norm

 

I just came out of a 6MT BMW 335i sedan.
And have had many cars with various transmissions. For example, Infiniti's 5 speed manumatic and othe MTs.
And before getting the Max I test drove many cars, both autos-including VWs DSG, Audi S4 dual clutch Stronic-and MTs.

I live in an area with all kinds of driving conditions...winding roads, highways, city traffic, etc.
I loved the control of my 335i for the most part but it became very tedious and often annoying in traffic.

My decision to get the Max was based on many factors. One dominant factor was BECAUSE of the current/improved CVT, not in spite of it.

As manufacturers add more gears and clutches to their automatics to improve performance and gas mileage it has lead to more cost, weight, complexity and maintenance.
I have read many articles that COMPLAINED of a test car's automatic too often hunting for the right gear, not always being smooth and sometimes having downright harsh shifts.

Our CVT addresses all the issues of efficiency and responsiveness and IMHO, works very well and makes the Maxima a fine car.

The differences of opinion amongst the members here-about the CVT and 7th gen Maxima in general-is based on the fact that Nissan decided to take their "4DSC" icon and transform it into a very smooth, very capable sedan that is more luxury and less sport.

 

I completely agree. Very well said.

 

The hardest thing I had to get used to is how much pedal pressure to use. If you don't get on the gas enough, it will quickly jump into "fuel conservation" mode which sucks if you're pulling out from an intersection in a hurry. If you give it too much gas you end up ripping the tires off. It's not a complaint, but you really do have to learn how to drive with a CVT, and once you do it's great. I love pulling out from an intersection and listening to the exhaust scream at 5,000 RPM's without dropping until you let off the gas.

 

Oh, please. That's just silly.

This is the Maxima's new target market, right here. The Toyota Avalon. Can you just feel the enthusiasm?

 

I bought the Maxima because I didn't like the G37's automatic. I'm of two minds about the CVT.

The good:

- Very smooth. The absence of shifts is wonderful.

- Mechanically efficient, though perhaps no more so than the latest automatics. Less efficient than a manual because you can't control the RPMs to the same extent.

- Simple in design; theoretically less to break.

The bad:

- Torque limiter. You wonder why the engine is soft under 30 MPH and you can't spin the tires with 290 HP? It's not the traction control.

- Surging. While there's no power interruption with the CVT, there is a delay as it switches ratios when given a lot of gas. The combination of this delay and the torque limiter makes for soft initial response, followed by a whole bunch of power.

- Ratio spread. It's ticking over 2300 RPM or so at 80. For fuel economy, I'd like to see that number down by 1000 RPM.

- No 'sport' mode without pretend gears. I don't see why a more aggressive throttle curve should require abandoning the chief benefit of the CVT.

- Less than brilliant transmission profiles. It's easy to catch the transmission unawares. Pedal travel alone doesn't dictate power output. If you start with slow acceleration, you can push the pedal almost to the floor without ever having the revs rise above 3500 RPM. This makes the car feel soft. If you jerk the pedal to the same position, the engine winds up to 5500 RPM where the engine is much more powerful. The only way around this is to push past the hitch in the pedal travel, literally flooring it.

- Manual mode is better for fuel economy than sport. I leave the engine in 6th over long trips so that moderate acceleration won't spike the revs. For sport, the shifts feel like molasses. Regular CVT mode is so good that I don't see much point in manual.

This is really just a checklist of things Nissan should work on. I still like the CVT better than most automatics I've tried, but I'm not a sporting driver and the CVT doesn't encourage me otherwise. If there were some way to wedge the GT-R's dual-clutch unit into a transverse layout, I think it'd be ideal for the Maxima. That, minus the torque limiter and plus a limited-slip differential, and they'd have a sensational front-driver.

 

To be quite honest with you, I think the Nissan 2nd Gen CVT is much better overall then the Infiniti 7spd Automatic! The reason being is that almost all the kinks have been worked out of this CVT, and except for some minor loud rev droning is causes the engine to make during acceleration, I can't find anything really wrong with it. On the other hand, the 7spd auto from Infiniti has had some minor problems still, and even the new M37/56 has carried them over, so I've read in the latest reviews and test drives on the new M. It still seems to have some communication issues with the computer and hunts/pecks for gears often on at different rpms. I felt this a little bit while I test drove a G37 but apparently it gets worse as time goes on and several G and other Infiniti owners on edmunds are running into some issues down the road with unwanted/severe jerking sensations from the trans.

Supposedly, Infiniti is aware of the refinement issues with the transmission and is working on refining and updating it, because in its current form, it lacks the refinement that the BMW and MB auto trans has, but the improvement won't be seen and introduced until the next generation G supposedly so we will have to wait!

For now, I think the CVT is the better of the two!!!

I personally can't wait till Nissan comes out with the 3rd Gen CVT when they starting designing their engines to work in conjunction with them. The efficiency and refinement should be ridiculous, even compared to the 2nd Gen CVT's we all have now.

 

 

I've had a whole bunch of vehicles but this is my first CVT. I like it and it fits with what the Maxima is..... a sporty yet very comfortable family sedan.

 

Your funny

 

Since this has turned into yet ANOTHER MT vs CVT thread bashing, I'm combining it with the other one....

 

You read car mags & they hate the CVT with a passion. What they lack is your understanding of daily driving & commute. You wouldn't drive with summer tires & 20" rims, would you? given snow & all the potholes warping your rims? CVT is a smooth operator on daily bumper to bumper traffic. smooth stops & starts. seriously, you are not going to race these housewives to the supermarket, are you? :-)

 

Maybe the magazine road testers just drive with a different mindset than what best gets most people through the numbness of the twice-daily commuting slog. After all, driving is specifically part of their their day job, putting them in the position of being paid to notice any number of things that most of the rest of the driving population would rather remain oblivious to.


Norm

 

My problem with the car mag testers panning CVTs is that they KNOW the car they are testing is CVT-powered, and supposedly the people considering BUYING the car know the car is CVT-powered. That is a fact. Nothing they can say will change that.

So they should be testing the car AS A CVT-POWERED VEHICLE, and their comments should be directed at how the CVT in this car compares with the CVTs in other cars they have tested.

By downgrading or bashing a test car simply BECAUSE it is CVT-powered, they simply show they are very limited in their ability to think logically, and do not understand how to properly do the job for which they are being paid.

Dislike of the CVT should be an issue they handle in an article about transmissions.

 

CVT is a great technology for particular cars. The recent scenario of grocery-getting and start/stop traffic is a good one.

I think the problem felt by Bashers (and I guess that includes me), is that you don't market a vehicle as a "4-Door Sports Car" and give it a CVT. In the opinion of most enthusiasts, those things contradict one another.

 

IIRC, it took the predecessors of today's automotive writers more than a few years to consider conventional automatics with much above grudging acceptance, so I wouldn't have expected anything different this time around. I'd guess that anybody having enough interest in cars to dedicate their life's work to writing about them is probably more than a little bit conservative in their automotive outlook and expectations. Never mind what effect the existing magazine office atmosphere likely has on new recruits to the business. The NEXT crop of automotive writers will likely be more receptive.

It's not that the CVT is the only transmission type that attracts adverse editorial comment – conventional automatics still do (hunt for the right gear, have too many to choose from on forced downshift, etc.), clutchless manual trannies haven't exactly been free from it (typically being less than happy at less than WOT use), and woe to anybody who'd dare introduce a manual tranny with less than five forward speeds. Each of these devices is good at some things, but none is best at everything. Not yet, anyway.

Comparisons held strictly among CVT-equipped cars will have to wait until there are enough of them in whatever category the specific vehicle under examination fits. In the near-luxury market that might be a while, as the closest example to the Maxima that I can think of offhand is Subaru with their "Lineartronic". In the Legacy, that tranny is only matched up with the 2.5i model (naturally aspirated 2.5 liter four), which I'd guess makes it far more comparable to a four cylinder Altima. If the 3.6R (V6 luxury oriented Legacy version) gets a CVT, then you'll have a reasonable comparison.


Norm

 

Norm - I may not like it, but I must admit your analysis is exactly what we have, and I understand how this situation is to be expected.

 

+1 on that. i dont see where Nissan is going with that one but i guess ill stay tuned and see. hopefully they will give up on the CVT and go 7 or 8 speed auto with optional MT.

 

Absolutely NO chance of that. 'Sporty' is more in the mind of the individual driver than it is specs on a drawing board or the type of trannie in a car. I think the 7th gen Maxima is VERY 'sporty.'

The CVT is (or very shortly will be) better than shifting trannies at BOTH acceleration AND fuel efficiency. Requiring NO torque converter, it has HALF the number of parts and HALF the weight of an automatic tranny.

Every shift point on a shifting tranny (whether manual or automatic) is a point at which all acceleration very briefly pauses, but the engine is still running, accomplishing nothing. As more speeds are added to shifting trannies in order to make them more efficient, that simply adds more inefficient shift points.

The Maxima is intended as a FAMILY SEDAN with a SPORTY EDGE. It is neither a sports car nor a luxury car; it is a FWD COMBINATION OF BOTH, and one of best such combinations available at the price.

I feel that, with much stricter MPG regulations looming ever closer, the CVT is rather locked in for the Maxima. Even the CVT won't reach the necessary efficiency, so look for a diesel Maxima, and eventually a hybrid Maxima.

I have owned three speed manuals, four speed manuals and five speed manuals, and in areas where traffic actually moved (there are fewer such areas every year), found driving them to be a lot of fun.

But in these days of uncontrolled population explosion, very few new roads, horrible congestion, and growing pressure to use less oil, the CVT is only going to become more prevalent. Eventually, only specialty/expensive cars such as the Corvette and maybe a few BWMs, etc, will stay with the old, less-efficient shifting trannies.

At that point, those dreaming of a manual Maxima to fit their image of a 'sports car' will find they are stuck in the second millenium, and the world has passed them by.

 

As always, well said Light! The manual has been on the decline since the introduction of the automatic and its demise will soon become a real possibility! Evolution in any/all arenas is to be expected, including transmissions!

 

Exactly. There will come a time when the CVT is being replaced by a kind of tranny we cannot quite imagine at this time.

I remember being disappointed when Hershey bars went from 2 cents to 3 cents in the late 1930s. I was not quite old enough to understand that my life would be a very long series of changes that, at the time, I would rather not have happened.

But then most of the changes have turned out OK. I no longer have to carry our water from the springhouse, or use an outdoor toilet, or light the kerosene lamps each evening at dusk, or make a fire in the fireplace each night from November until April, or hitch the horse to the wagon in order to go to town on a rutty dirt road.

Progress usually has a way of turning out OK.

 

Nicely put. In many respects over the last 10 years, the Maxima hasn't exactly conformed to any particular type of car. (Something Mazda does across most of their product line.) The 7th gen continues in that theme.

Ouch. Again, you're right. Over the last few years, I've been modding my Maxima into something it was never intended to be.

I still don't care for the CVT, but when discussed with an open mind, I suppose I can accept it for what it is.

 

That sounds like a pragmatic approach to something we have little control over.

I have long understood the theoretical improvement in acceleration and fuel economy of a tranny that could keep the RPMs placed well in the engine's power curve WITHOUT SHIFTING (i,e,, a CVT). But I was disappointed by the experiences folks were having with all CVTs until this redesigned one on the 7th gen Maxima. In my opinion, this new Maxima tranny will someday be looked back on as the 'CVT that turned the corner' for CVTs.

 

To tell you the truth, the loss of a MT in the Maxima bothered me less than did the loss of a MT in the Altima, as a V6/MT Altima would have made the "short list" this last time around. Let's just say that it gets really easy to feel a bit "squeezed out" when the ultimate effect of the preferences of others is that they are allowed to eliminate mine.

I don't always mind or resist change, but I do want to be able to embrace it on my terms and on my schedule. Not have it arbitrarily forced on me to suit somebody else's agenda and their schedule. FWIW, this covers a much, much wider scope than just the Maxima being CVT only.

I can see a number of mechanical advantages that lie in the CVT court, along with (at least currently) two or three disadvantages in how the thing interfaces with you and your perception of what it's trying to tell you. Not everybody sees them as disadvantages, but then again there probably aren't very many couples where both spouses have driven MT cars to the near-complete exclusion of AT vehicles over a 40 year period.

Perhaps the amount of "sport" now considered appropriate for the Maxima relative to its non-luxury division competition is similar to GM's market positioning of the Pontiac Bonneville vs Buick's LeSabre and Oldsmobile's 98 back in the late 1960's. Just a little more "edge" to its character without being over the top about it and maybe just a little more performance to back up the bark with a little bite. Even the 5th Gen Maxima's character is a little softer around the edges and a little more deliberate in the way it drives than are other cars in our "fleet".


Norm

 

You can add me to the list of those disappointed by the dropping of the manual Altima. I understand manual sales were not good, but the Altima is Nissan's VOLUME family sedan, intended to sell several hundred thousand each year. I feel that is EXACTLY where a manual could be justified economically.

In a way, Nissan has let us down. Back in 2002, when Ghosn announced the Maxima would be taken upscale to near-luxury, he said the Maxima's role as an affordable family 4DSC would be filled by the manual 3.5 Altima. For years, that statement was true. The 6th gen Maxima was moved measurably toward the luxury side, and the very-highly rated Altima 3.5 had a manual option.

But then Gohsn announced that the 7th gen Maxima would be moved back nearer the Maxima's roots, and would have a sporty edge. What he failed to say at that time was that a more sporty Maxima meant the end of the manual 3.5 Altima.

Reminds me of the old 'guess which shell' game.

 

There isn't much argument that Mr. Ghosn has been a very good thing as far as Nissan's survival and turn around was concerned. But I think it came with a deferred pricetag.

Strong leadership is one thing, but running a shell game or three card monte on customers (particularly repeat customers who by their purchase history have demonstrated some measure of marque loyalty) strikes me as being a bit too arbitrary and capricious. Dare I say . . . too "French"?


Norm

 

Very well put. Its like them testing the prius hybrid, and saying they dont' like the battery assist. Why doesn't this handle like a corvette???

It really doesn't make any sense.

 

Very nice example!

It is rather amusing that so many car mag testers, supposedly a group on the 'cutting edge', are hopelessly tied to their past. As a group, I consider them to be the exact opposite of folks who are 'innovative thinkers.' Not bad folks, but certainly not the ideal type for producing clear-minded reviews of new vehicles.

 

Maybe they don't see themselves that way. In terms of obtaining objective performance measurements and opinions regarding the subjectives of human interface with vehicle behavior, the only things that have changed are the performance numbers themselves and the means by which they are determined. I wouldn't expect them to be the "innovative thinkers", as you put it.

Perhaps if/when the CVT-equipped Maxima or Altima have more true competition (Subaru still being something of a niche mfr), CVT-equipped vehicles might get more even-handed reviews.



Norm

 

If Nissan changed their rubber band driven CVT into a steel chain CVT like most German vehicles maybe it would be a lot better and more stronger. And if they didnt keep downgrading options every year. One minute you have an Auto then you get a manual here and there, then you lose it from the Maxima game. And then the CVT with its no shift shock. They make nice models but they take the fun away. Its like they are making it senior citizen friendly, no offense to the older people on here.

 

Someone here is not yet old enough to understand our world is changing very quickly.

Someone here is behind the times. CVTs used to be 'rubber-bandy' and worse. But those are the bygone days. This new generation Maxima CVT is strong enough to let 290 HP take things to 60 MPH in around six seconds. And this CVT is warrantied for TEN YEARS. Stick THAT in your TL and smoke it.

And someone is behind in another area, too: Yes, German vehicles stood for quality back in the 1960s and 1970s. Now they use Consumer Report's supply of black ***** (much worse than average reliability) faster than the printer can make the ink.

And someone here is behind in the area that still thinks manual trannies are more efficient and more powerful than CVTs. They are already slightly less efficient in both acceleration and fuel economy, and are only going to fall further behind the evolving CVT. They are more fun to drive for about 3% of the American population. And that is why many manufacturers have moved away from even making them.

Someone here needs to understand the 'good old days' are over. Impending government fuel regulations mean even more 'fun' is going to have to come out of many vehicles. If we weren't burning through far more fuel than should be needed to propel our cars, we wouldn't have to drill holes in the earth over a mile below sea level, and wipe out everything nature took millions of years to build in the entire Gulf region.

Like it or not, the 'good old days' are ending with a whimper.

 

It's kind of fun reading you and Norm. Very much like you guys are sitting in a booth, sharing a pint, talking in historic generalities about the automotive industry. Maybe it's the "Norm Peterson" association... so scratch the booth, and make that a bar stool.

As long as the technology is in transition, and traditional options are still available, I'll hang on to the "good old days", because that's what I know and prefer. I'll only choose change when it represents an improvement. As a driving enthusiast, the improvements of the CVT are not apparent over the Manual Transmission. There are more important considerations than efficiency.

But that's just me. Simply put, values are personal.

 

Absolutely right.

There was a time I thought I would never drive a non-manual tranny. I loved the feel of slipping the shift lever into the proper gear and easing out the clutch. It was as if I was in total control, and I was master of the ship. The car actually became an extension of me. It took endless years of heartbreaking traffic gridlock to wean me from that love.

 

1000% agree on that. When I moved from a rural town to urban city it all changed from love to more of an aggrivation. Lots of construction in between work and home didn't help either. One day I will have another 5 or 6 speed manual but if and when I do get it weekend drives in the mountains is all it will see.

 

But you're also missing the fact that 99% of the American population learned to drive in their mother's station wagon or some similar car, which only came with an automatic. Most American drivers have never had the joy of experiencing a manual transmission and the control and the engagement with the driving experience it gives. Face it, any perceived "advantage" of a CVT regarding fuel economy or power is both debatable and academic--no real-world "advantage" exists in the CVT. In reality, the only reason Nissan went to the CVT is to make more money at the expense of the car buyer. Our friend's 2010 Maxima is just as boring as my Civic hybrid driving around town. And I'm willing to bet few take advantage of the manual shift on the CVT very often once the newness wears off. Besides, If I want sequential shifting, I'll go ride our Gold Wing. But eventually, I guess when I get to be 80, I'll probably want an autmatic tranny too!

 

yes, the new maxima is just as boring as your civic hybrid Your friend must be quite a boring person for you to compare to a civic hybrid. you need to tell your friend they are not driving Miss Daisy

 

Far more important, you are missing the point that Nissan gave us a manual option of the Maxima for a qarter of a century, and nobody was buying it. By 2006, manuals had dropped to less than 3% of total Maximas sold. That is BRUTAL. With manuals available, dealers just wouldn't accept them from Nissan, because they usually had to let them go well below invoice just to get them off their lot. Despite the pro-manual feelings here, Nissan would have been very foolish to continue making something nobody was buying.

You are also NOT correct about the CVT being no more efficient than a manual or automatic. I am getting 30 MPG (sometimes 31) on open freeway trips with a 290 HP engine. I never reached 30 MPG in my many previous lower-powered Maximas with shifting trannies.

You are also misled about the shifting options on the 7th gen Maxima. The best performance is obtained by simply using 'D' (normal drive), because any other option has many of the same drawbacks as shifting trannies.

You are also misled as to why Nissan went to a CVT. The impending higher government fuel efficiency requirements could not be obtained via manual or automatic trannies, and the fact the CVT weighs HALF as much as an automatic tranny helps even more to improve fuel efficiency. Of course the CVT has half the parts of an automatic tranny, which does make them more efficient to build.

The fact you consider your friend's CVT boring to drive simply tells us you have not yet mastered the many nuances of driving a CVT. Those who think it is simply dhifting to 'D' and mashing the gas are truly neophytes.

As to the fun of a manual? Depends on where you are driving. I found I was shifting my Datsun 200SX 5 speed manual approximately 800 times going to work, and 800 times returning home, and averaging around 15 MPH. Anyone who does that every workday of every week, and thinks it is 'fun' is truly a glutton for punishment.

Folks don't have to like the CVT, but they should take the time to find out the facts concerning CVTs before denigrating them.