Whats up, I didnt want to post so soon about this but I kind of need an idea of how many people would be serious about this....I am working with a Local Guy who owns and operates a CNC Machine shop....He is on my local forum and looking for new product Ideas and I proposed Ball-Joint Extenders....He told me to get some dimensions and an Idea of how many people would want them...the more people want them the cheaper they will be....from what it sounds like it would def. be under $100 bux for the set..I dont want to say too low of a price just incase...So currently I am drawing up plans in Inventor to give to him....I am going to get a price for 10 sets for now just to see but I hope to get more people.....I am looking to make the extender approx.. 1.5" That will satisfy most applications....helping out everyone with handling and allowing the control to go back to as close to normal as possibe...this will help save CV joints and such too...here is a link from a manufactuer that makes them for Subarus....I contacted them too and awaiting response.....

http://6gunracing.com/products.asp

 

I'm interested, of course - pending someone else testing them

 

i would be testing them

 

interested,

but I'm afraid I won't be able to buy them in the near future, I don't work this semester and the money is a bit tight...

 

I heard back from 6gunracing.com......they seem pretty interested in making these for us because they are looking to expand to alot of other makes as well..they said they were going to check out the forum....so lets get some people talking about this

 

I would be interested.

 

Sounds promising. Id like to see the results and a finished product.

 

Im down, but what happens if you put on the stock springs? I guess these would have to come off or poor geometry would cause issues.

 

I am pretty interested also...

 

That looks pretty good. I would like to improve my handling since I am dropped 2.2 inches. This would be awesome. Just depending on the size you go for. Keep us updated.

 

honestly I think they would have to offer a few different sizes to compensate for the different ranges of even a aftermarket spring drop, well alone coilovers...

I may also be able to get these things made, just let me know if this falls through.

 

as of right now they commonly run a size of 1.5" of correction...for the Subies...they said thats a standard size they would make...it wouldnt be a perfect correction for S-tech., sprint, and other springs but it would be a big help....Sutter if u were to run stock springs u would have to remove them...u wouldnt need them anyway....i will ask them about making different sizes but that will hurt mass production as raise the price...but i will find out

my vision of what it might look like

 

I'm guessing that's Solidworks..hell of a program aint' it?

 

inventor....and yes it is

 

Subscribed.

Count on my money the instant these become available.

 

the way this would be done is after their testing in done and they have a final design...a pre-fabrication order group buy would be put in....again i will prolly run the group buy....but I will work that out if they decide to make these

 

Good find Chris. If they also relocate the tie-rod and solve the toe problem these things would be fantastic. Great value. I've got some extra 4th gen control arms I could send em if they need. As helpful as they will be though I couldn't run them competitively in either SCCA Solo or Club so I'm out.

 

they do make the tie-rod part as well for the subaru's i am assuming doing ours will be no problem....I when I hear back from them Ill ask if they want a lower control arm to do testing and dimensioning.....as far as SCCA rules go.....depends...my local events they wouldnt check for that so I wouldnt even tell them...but for national events and club they might....because they would bump u into SM...but I have hard enough time keeping up with the STX guys so It would be something I would neglect to tell them

 

iam a novice at this stuff but is this things only use for toe adjustment?

My cars toe was out - 5 degrees on my last alighnment and the shop had no trouble fixing it

 

they return the control arm back or close to 90 degrees on lowered vehicles....thus correcting to a certain point all aspects of suspension geometry

 

I am interested; thanks for taking the initiative on this! People with lowered Maxes who care about handling desperately need this. Could someone point me to an Org thread or other page that discusses the theory, actualy benefits, and installation? It's been a while since I first read about this so I'm fuzzy on the details.

I read the description of the Subaru kit and it sounds good, although with the tie-rod relocation it comes to $400 which is a lot more than I can afford for a while. It does sound very well designed though:

Q. Why should I purchase your kit instead of just an extended ball joint?

A. Unlike other kits on the market today, our ball joint relocation kit accounts for both the relocation of the lower ball joint on the control arm, as well as the proper compensation to the steering tie rod end to eliminate the bumpsteer that gets added through the relocation. Through our suspension geometry modeling we were able to all but eliminate bumpsteer after the installation of our kit. Through 2.25" of bump, our kit will only cause 0.14 degrees of toe out compared to 0.11 degrees of toe out stock. Lowering just the ball joint 1.5", without any sort of adjustment to the tie rod end, would result in 10 degrees of toe in. Lastly, our kit only relocates your stock ball joint instead of replacing it with an extended and expensive whole ball joint. With our kit, once your ball joint wears out you will be able to purchase another very inexpensive stock ball joint, instead of an expensive special extended one.

 

One important factor is how much camber you gain when the suspension compresses, and whether that camber is positive or negative. Obviously you want negative camber gain so that when the outside suspension compresses in a turn, it gets better grip. Positive camber gain would be bad. On a MacPherson Strut suspension, you get negative camber gain when the angle defined by the strut and the lower control arm is less than 90 degrees; the lower it is, the more negative camber gain you get. Maximas are designed this way: At stock ride height, the LCA is angled slightly downward and the strut is more or less vertical. The problem is that when you lower the car, the LCA ends up being angled higher. Sometimes, with drops greater than about 1.5", the LCA can wind up with an upward angle. Since the angle defined by the strut and the LCA would then be greater than 90 degrees, that would result in positive camber gain on compression, which would start to offset many of the handling gains from lowering and stiffer springs. Adding a ball joint extender will just make the LCA sit at a lower angle and bring the geometry closer to stock, reducing or eliminating that effect.

Another factor is roll center. That is more complicated to explain, but in a nutshell it has to do with your car's tendency to roll in a corner: the lower your roll center, the more body roll you will have. When you lower a car with MacPherson Struts, your roll center is always lowered more than your center of gravity, which can cause increased body roll and of course a negative impact on handling. Ball joint extenders will address this issue as well, raising the roll center of the car closer to where it should be.

 

u wont absolutely need the tie-rod extender...but it will help.....i think the 400 was some wierd price for so many sets that the Suby guys were ordering....I owners of 6gun are out of town but they do have internet access where they are....but unfortunately i was contacting them thru my work email which i cant check from home

 

Exactly how will this bolt onto our ball joint right now? Will it just be screwed on? and then the hub put onto the new threads and then tightened down?

 

Thanks for the great summary, d00df00d.

I found a Subaru thread that has detailed photos of installation, which helps visualize how it works. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1085638

I think the tie-rod extenders are a must or else you'll get crazy increased bump-steer/toe-out.

 

works like a clamp....i put the extender over the ball joint and it will have to bolts one on the lower part of the joint and near the threaded part...put it on tighten bolts....and it will prolly have a threated end that goes thru the control arm castle nut and cotter pin...Subies ball jointd are wierd and they actually have a bolt thru them...ours are different

 

Excellent link about the STI install. Very well documented.

One thing I've been thinking about is the FSB and preload. When you lower the car beyond say 1.5" does the FSB just pivot or does it create tension on the bar at all since it connects to the control arms? And would these extenders bring it back to neutral the way it should be? If there is tension would adjustable bar end links be useful (like the 6th gen's have?)

 

interesting point

 

I made a thread a while back about bump steer kits but Matt said it was a bad idea to be used alone. BUT with the ball joint extender it would help out and compleat the front end. http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....ght=bump+steer

 

Eek. Looks like we'll need both ball joints relocated at the same time...

 

exactamundo

 

I think this could be something homemade, for our cars anyway. does any have the thread patterns on hand?

 

In. Of course after a couple folks test run 'em

 

I dont know about homemade but I guess it is possible with the right metal the bolts.

If maximase96 gave me the info needed to create them I could possible get a set made. We know this guy who a metal fabricator and he had made us tons of stuff and I am sure he would make a set of these for free. He should be able to make them.

 

they really need to be CNC machined and milled....if does that i can give my inventor file drawing file and he can go form there

tierod extenders would be easier to home make...the the thickness variations of the ball-joint itself need to be precise...like on a CNC lathe

 

its the same concept as a machine shop.jus not as fancy(well atleast in my head)Im gonna look into that tommorow.I'll see if i cant fab something up.It shouldnt be to hard(once again in my head).o

 

tie rod part just really need to be an threaded cylinder that a bolt can be put thru the bottom

 

are we talking about a whole new lower ball joint?

 

This is what my alignment guy has said twice to me, both times after I got my alignment. He says my tie rods and axles are bent and a bad angle so the car bounces so much and it's putting a lot of stress on the steering and control. He said he tells the honda guys the same thing when they are lowered so much. He said someone needs to invent a "knuckle" that will extende or adjust the tie rods.

I will be interested in seeing the outcome of this thread...

 

I don't know if this was already answered but this will help my car not chew up axles, causing less noise when turning?