Need a chassis guru!
07-16-2011, 09:49 PM
#1
Need a chassis guru!
Hey guys. Pondering picking up a 4th Gen for endurance road racing and needed to make a friend or two to help me figure out the best way to make the car turn and be as stable, predictable, fast and SAFE as possible.
PLEASE drop me a note if you know someone or are someone who can lend a hand.
PS- If you live in Ohio or within a distance you feel like driving there will be seat time available as this is a 24 Hours of Lemons sort of team thing.
If you want to know what lemons is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EeibYXnxnM
http://www.goracingtv.com/06/24/2011...infineon-2011/
PLEASE drop me a note if you know someone or are someone who can lend a hand.
PS- If you live in Ohio or within a distance you feel like driving there will be seat time available as this is a 24 Hours of Lemons sort of team thing.
If you want to know what lemons is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EeibYXnxnM
http://www.goracingtv.com/06/24/2011...infineon-2011/
07-17-2011, 07:19 AM
#2
Subframe connectors, rollcage, and your choice of suspension. I would prob get lower tie bars, a rear sway bar, upgraded/new suspension components(bushings, mounts, etc...), dunno if you are gonna run a strut/spring combo or coilovers.
Definately get a great pad/rotor combo as well.
Definately get a great pad/rotor combo as well.
Last edited by Kevlo911; 07-17-2011 at 07:21 AM.
07-17-2011, 09:24 AM
#3
24 Hours of Lemons and Chumpcar are the two series this car will see.
As such the budget is LIMITED. As in there really is no budget.
If I am lucky I will be able to run shocks and struts that are not blown and most (if not all mods) must be hand made.
Mounts will most likely be filled with liquid nails or epoxy. Bushings may be able to be replaced with OEM as the ones we would mill from scrap would not be allowed by chump. Subframe connectors will be easy with welded straps and homemade turnbuckles to keep things snug.
In time I also think I can pull off a homemade splitter that will blend into an undertray that will act to triangulate and shore up the front subframe.
Springs can be cut, perches can be moved and about anything you can do with pieces and parts and your own smarts without the use of crazy exotic tools is fair game.
As such the budget is LIMITED. As in there really is no budget.
If I am lucky I will be able to run shocks and struts that are not blown and most (if not all mods) must be hand made.
Mounts will most likely be filled with liquid nails or epoxy. Bushings may be able to be replaced with OEM as the ones we would mill from scrap would not be allowed by chump. Subframe connectors will be easy with welded straps and homemade turnbuckles to keep things snug.
In time I also think I can pull off a homemade splitter that will blend into an undertray that will act to triangulate and shore up the front subframe.
Springs can be cut, perches can be moved and about anything you can do with pieces and parts and your own smarts without the use of crazy exotic tools is fair game.
07-17-2011, 10:12 AM
#4
Mounts will most likely be filled with liquid nails or epoxy. Bushings may be able to be replaced with OEM as the ones we would mill from scrap would not be allowed by chump. Subframe connectors will be easy with welded straps and homemade turnbuckles to keep things snug.
In time I also think I can pull off a homemade splitter that will blend into an undertray that will act to triangulate and shore up the front subframe.
Springs can be cut, perches can be moved and about anything you can do with pieces and parts and your own smarts without the use of crazy exotic tools is fair game.
In time I also think I can pull off a homemade splitter that will blend into an undertray that will act to triangulate and shore up the front subframe.
Springs can be cut, perches can be moved and about anything you can do with pieces and parts and your own smarts without the use of crazy exotic tools is fair game.
Last edited by asand1; 07-17-2011 at 10:19 AM.
07-17-2011, 11:07 AM
#5
Christ... I did not list a panhard did I? Its on the list.
Considering an ackerman as well but worried about weight and packaging. Anything more would be overkill and even the ackerman may make people think we are way too smart for our own good and rip the car apart looking for cheatonium hidden within.
Good call on the 3m product. I'll check it out!
If you are interested in getting with a team I know a few very cool and skilled groups on the west coast that I could get you hooked up with if you are interested.
Considering an ackerman as well but worried about weight and packaging. Anything more would be overkill and even the ackerman may make people think we are way too smart for our own good and rip the car apart looking for cheatonium hidden within.
Good call on the 3m product. I'll check it out!
If you are interested in getting with a team I know a few very cool and skilled groups on the west coast that I could get you hooked up with if you are interested.
07-17-2011, 02:28 PM
#6
cheapest handling mods for the car would be:
1. better shocks-- get whatever you can. adjustables will get you penalty laps at your first race, but after you survive a few races and have a crap residual value, you'll be okay. you might try a set of Koni reds and just paint them black- they'll look stock enough, but the judges around here give the car a 'bounce test' so you might not get away with good shocks at your first race.
2. don't bother with subframe connectors or anything. build the cage properly and you don't need them. they don't really help the overall g-handling of the car on street tires, but they sharpen the response so it feels like it handles better. that can translate into driver confidence so they drive better, but the mod itself really doesn't make a car on stock springs and street tires any faster.
3. energy suspension bushings up front, and rear if you can get them for the trailing arms. you can't see them on the car once they have some miles on them and they're just as dirty as stock ones. they make the front end handle sooo much better though.
4. panhard bar in the rear.
5. don't lower the car too much. cut one coil off the springs if you feel you MUST lower the car. over-lowering causes all kinds of geometry problems that takes custom tie rod adapters and control arms to fix. way beyond the scope of a $500 lemons car.
6. 16x8 wheels- get some 245/45/16 or so tires and use some TTZ or FD RX7 wheels. Dunlop Star Spec or Hankook R-S3 will both work. You can run 17s or 18s if you insist, but your tire cost goes way up and your performance doesn't.
7. brakes. you don't need huge brakes, but stock rotors with Hawk Blue or DTC-60 pads will work fine for a LeMons event. have a spare set of pads and rotors just in case.
8. weight. strip EVERYTHING out of the car. weight is your biggest factor in making the car handle better. gut the doors and dash, cut off all extra mounting brackets, etc etc etc.
9. fluids.. redline or royal purple in the tranny. I use 3 qts of redline MT-90 or MTL and a quart of lightweight Shockproof. 10,000 track miles on my tranny and all I've ever done is replace bearings which are known to fail. the gears have all been fine as long as you don't ham-fist the tranny.
10.. power.. not reallly much you can easily do that's not $$$. If you have the cash, an aluminum flywheel will gain you tons of egine response and power, and it's not something they can see. throw in a good clutch- don't ask about money, just do it. judges can't see a clutch and aren't going to make you pull a tranny to prove you're using junk.
on the exhaust, leave it stock other than to look at the B pipe and cut out the crimped chunk under the rear seats. remove that little tiny brace if you need to, but removing that crimped section is all you need to do for the exhaust. it'll cost $5 in parts and 30 min of time and will gain more cheap power than replacing the rest of the exhaust (other than Y pipe/headers).
the car has a good size gas tank so I wouldn't mess with it. just fill up the tank and come in when the engine starts to fuel starve in the corners. On my 3-gen, that was about 1/4 tank. I could get about 2.5hrs of track time on a tank before I started having starvation problems.
and the biggest thing...
RELIABILITY!!!
Don't finish the car on Friday night and expect to do well on Saturday. get the car running- whether the cage is in it or not- and get it out to the track for at least a few shakedown DE events so you can see how well the car works on track. After you get it running reliably, THEN work on go-fast stuff. but you have to finish the race first.
I can't tell you how many teams I see out there trying to stick wilwoods and cams and crap on their cars when the gas tank is full of crap or the radiator is junk and the car can't make 5 laps at full throttle before the engine sputters and dies. You don't need that crap. A stock VQ-5 will pull 80% of the LeMons cars on the straight and hold its own in the corners in stock form.
get the damn car running FIRST. then work on go fast stuff.
That's just my experience in 5+ LeMons events.
1. better shocks-- get whatever you can. adjustables will get you penalty laps at your first race, but after you survive a few races and have a crap residual value, you'll be okay. you might try a set of Koni reds and just paint them black- they'll look stock enough, but the judges around here give the car a 'bounce test' so you might not get away with good shocks at your first race.
2. don't bother with subframe connectors or anything. build the cage properly and you don't need them. they don't really help the overall g-handling of the car on street tires, but they sharpen the response so it feels like it handles better. that can translate into driver confidence so they drive better, but the mod itself really doesn't make a car on stock springs and street tires any faster.
3. energy suspension bushings up front, and rear if you can get them for the trailing arms. you can't see them on the car once they have some miles on them and they're just as dirty as stock ones. they make the front end handle sooo much better though.
4. panhard bar in the rear.
5. don't lower the car too much. cut one coil off the springs if you feel you MUST lower the car. over-lowering causes all kinds of geometry problems that takes custom tie rod adapters and control arms to fix. way beyond the scope of a $500 lemons car.
6. 16x8 wheels- get some 245/45/16 or so tires and use some TTZ or FD RX7 wheels. Dunlop Star Spec or Hankook R-S3 will both work. You can run 17s or 18s if you insist, but your tire cost goes way up and your performance doesn't.
7. brakes. you don't need huge brakes, but stock rotors with Hawk Blue or DTC-60 pads will work fine for a LeMons event. have a spare set of pads and rotors just in case.
8. weight. strip EVERYTHING out of the car. weight is your biggest factor in making the car handle better. gut the doors and dash, cut off all extra mounting brackets, etc etc etc.
9. fluids.. redline or royal purple in the tranny. I use 3 qts of redline MT-90 or MTL and a quart of lightweight Shockproof. 10,000 track miles on my tranny and all I've ever done is replace bearings which are known to fail. the gears have all been fine as long as you don't ham-fist the tranny.
10.. power.. not reallly much you can easily do that's not $$$. If you have the cash, an aluminum flywheel will gain you tons of egine response and power, and it's not something they can see. throw in a good clutch- don't ask about money, just do it. judges can't see a clutch and aren't going to make you pull a tranny to prove you're using junk.
on the exhaust, leave it stock other than to look at the B pipe and cut out the crimped chunk under the rear seats. remove that little tiny brace if you need to, but removing that crimped section is all you need to do for the exhaust. it'll cost $5 in parts and 30 min of time and will gain more cheap power than replacing the rest of the exhaust (other than Y pipe/headers).
the car has a good size gas tank so I wouldn't mess with it. just fill up the tank and come in when the engine starts to fuel starve in the corners. On my 3-gen, that was about 1/4 tank. I could get about 2.5hrs of track time on a tank before I started having starvation problems.
and the biggest thing...
RELIABILITY!!!
Don't finish the car on Friday night and expect to do well on Saturday. get the car running- whether the cage is in it or not- and get it out to the track for at least a few shakedown DE events so you can see how well the car works on track. After you get it running reliably, THEN work on go-fast stuff. but you have to finish the race first.
I can't tell you how many teams I see out there trying to stick wilwoods and cams and crap on their cars when the gas tank is full of crap or the radiator is junk and the car can't make 5 laps at full throttle before the engine sputters and dies. You don't need that crap. A stock VQ-5 will pull 80% of the LeMons cars on the straight and hold its own in the corners in stock form.
get the damn car running FIRST. then work on go fast stuff.
That's just my experience in 5+ LeMons events.
Last edited by Matt93SE; 07-17-2011 at 02:31 PM.
07-17-2011, 03:17 PM
#7
Get a Maxima without a sunroof if possible, try to find a '95 GXE with a manual transmission as they are the lightest.
If you strip out a 4th gen and cage it, race weight should be around 2500~2600 pounds with a full tank. There would be no need to go with bigger brakes, just upgraded stock rotors, race pads, and high temp brake fluid. I've had good luck with ATE blue/Yellow and Castrol Syntec. The Castrol is cheap and available at most auto parts stores. Go with some nice solid rotors, no cross drilled crap that will crack or slotted ones that are to expensive. I am experimenting with cyro treated rotors but have no track data as of yet if they are worth the money. Brake pads I've used Carbotech XP8s and they have lasted several HPDEs without killing my rotors and have a good temp range. You might want to go with XP10s or Hawk blues or DTC60s. Avoid the Hawk HPS and HP+ pads as they don't last to long.
Replace all four wheel bearings!!! If you can't afford all four do the front bearings only. The front bearings get chewed up and fresh bearings are allowed in Lemons as a safety mod IIRC. I usually end up changing front wheel bearings once a year if I do alot of HPDE events in a season.
If you have to do alot of tire changes and the rules allow get ARP wheel studs, don't bother with the NISMO ones. I've broken the fronts using OEM and NISMO wheel studs running R-compounds. The ARPs have had no issues and I've had them for over two years now. I run them on all four corners so they all match but you only need stronger studs on the front of the car.
If you do gut the car you will most likely have to cut the springs or get GC coilovers. The car will sit higher than stock so take measurments before gutting the car with a driver sitting in the car. Then cut the springs or adjust the GCs to get the ride height close to stock.
If you do get GCs you can have the car corner balanced as this helps handling a bit. You can also grind a little of the holes on the strut towers to get some more negative camber/positive caster then tack weld the nuts to the strut towers to keep them from slipping over time.
The car should run cool if you have a non crusty radiator and remove the AC condensor along with gutting all the uneeded crap out of the engine bay. Flush the coolant system and run distilled water as per rules. Run a good 10w40 synthetic engine oil as well, Amsoil or Redline.
If you strip out a 4th gen and cage it, race weight should be around 2500~2600 pounds with a full tank. There would be no need to go with bigger brakes, just upgraded stock rotors, race pads, and high temp brake fluid. I've had good luck with ATE blue/Yellow and Castrol Syntec. The Castrol is cheap and available at most auto parts stores. Go with some nice solid rotors, no cross drilled crap that will crack or slotted ones that are to expensive. I am experimenting with cyro treated rotors but have no track data as of yet if they are worth the money. Brake pads I've used Carbotech XP8s and they have lasted several HPDEs without killing my rotors and have a good temp range. You might want to go with XP10s or Hawk blues or DTC60s. Avoid the Hawk HPS and HP+ pads as they don't last to long.
Replace all four wheel bearings!!! If you can't afford all four do the front bearings only. The front bearings get chewed up and fresh bearings are allowed in Lemons as a safety mod IIRC. I usually end up changing front wheel bearings once a year if I do alot of HPDE events in a season.
If you have to do alot of tire changes and the rules allow get ARP wheel studs, don't bother with the NISMO ones. I've broken the fronts using OEM and NISMO wheel studs running R-compounds. The ARPs have had no issues and I've had them for over two years now. I run them on all four corners so they all match but you only need stronger studs on the front of the car.
If you do gut the car you will most likely have to cut the springs or get GC coilovers. The car will sit higher than stock so take measurments before gutting the car with a driver sitting in the car. Then cut the springs or adjust the GCs to get the ride height close to stock.
If you do get GCs you can have the car corner balanced as this helps handling a bit. You can also grind a little of the holes on the strut towers to get some more negative camber/positive caster then tack weld the nuts to the strut towers to keep them from slipping over time.
The car should run cool if you have a non crusty radiator and remove the AC condensor along with gutting all the uneeded crap out of the engine bay. Flush the coolant system and run distilled water as per rules. Run a good 10w40 synthetic engine oil as well, Amsoil or Redline.
Last edited by 98SEBlackMax; 07-17-2011 at 03:33 PM.
07-20-2011, 06:40 AM
#10
It's also expensive, obvious when used, and it's effectiveness is negated by the roll cage. It also prevents quick repairs in the event of chassis damage since you have to basically sandblast the stuff out to get clean metal to weld.
It's fine for a street car, but not for a caged race car.
It's fine for a street car, but not for a caged race car.
07-21-2011, 08:48 PM
#11
an option never the less. Great for street cars as it is not obvious when used anf finished with trim. Obviously stripped cars it will show. I dont know about how it works with regulated races etc.
I cant wait to build a caged 964.... stuff dreams are made of.
I cant wait to build a caged 964.... stuff dreams are made of.
07-23-2011, 06:55 AM
#13
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Fl
Posts: 20
A properly installed / triangulated cage will strength the car. Try to tie in the additional supporting suspension parts ( if possible ) to the cage will help keep things located and staying "true". I.e. sub-frame connectors.. etc.. etc.. It all just depends on the size of cage and how many points are locating it.
I would get a tube of windshield urethane to fill the mounts with instead of the liquid nails or epoxy. ( if you go this route, make sure you get some primer with it.. it will aid in the adhesion of the urethane to the part where you are trying to locate the urethane )
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WINDS...Q5fAccessories
( in this picture it has the urethane the cleaner and primer ) the cleaner is the little white tab, you squeeze it and it cracks open and the cleaner comes out of the pad located at the bottom of it )
The primer is the red lil tube, with the white tip, ( the primer should/will come out that tip ) it will be inconsistant flow/spread if you do not shake it slightly before using it also. Its been a minute, but I believe you also have to squeeze the tube to open it also. Side note, I think Sika 227, is the proper one to use with aluminum, not the 221... ( like I said, its been a minute so you might want to check up on that before using )
Sorry for the long post, just trying to clearly tranfer my thoughts on to paper/screen.
I would get a tube of windshield urethane to fill the mounts with instead of the liquid nails or epoxy. ( if you go this route, make sure you get some primer with it.. it will aid in the adhesion of the urethane to the part where you are trying to locate the urethane )
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WINDS...Q5fAccessories
( in this picture it has the urethane the cleaner and primer ) the cleaner is the little white tab, you squeeze it and it cracks open and the cleaner comes out of the pad located at the bottom of it )
The primer is the red lil tube, with the white tip, ( the primer should/will come out that tip ) it will be inconsistant flow/spread if you do not shake it slightly before using it also. Its been a minute, but I believe you also have to squeeze the tube to open it also. Side note, I think Sika 227, is the proper one to use with aluminum, not the 221... ( like I said, its been a minute so you might want to check up on that before using )
Sorry for the long post, just trying to clearly tranfer my thoughts on to paper/screen.
Last edited by SM0KESH0W; 07-23-2011 at 07:02 AM.
07-23-2011, 11:21 AM
#14
Safety equipment is not included in the $500 limit so go big with a chromeoly (sp?) Cage for light wieght while stiffening the chassis. You might be able to incorporate real sfc (rails) by calling it the cage support.
07-23-2011, 07:28 PM
#16
Moly cages are bad juju and forbidden in every race series I would consider.
DOM is the current standard but there are a few other good cage materials that are rather hard to source. As I have a big stack of DOM ready to go, thats what I will be using.
As for how many points... Ummm a lot. Full NASCAR bars into skinned doors. Foot protection. Dash bar. Extra head protection. Full gussets. Plates to tie the cage to the chassis. Oh yeah... I am pretty sure the cage will be tied into the shock towers too.
I may well consider use of foam in some areas but will be reading up on which chemicals do what well and what the limitations are.
DOM is the current standard but there are a few other good cage materials that are rather hard to source. As I have a big stack of DOM ready to go, thats what I will be using.
As for how many points... Ummm a lot. Full NASCAR bars into skinned doors. Foot protection. Dash bar. Extra head protection. Full gussets. Plates to tie the cage to the chassis. Oh yeah... I am pretty sure the cage will be tied into the shock towers too.
I may well consider use of foam in some areas but will be reading up on which chemicals do what well and what the limitations are.
07-23-2011, 08:26 PM
#17
07-23-2011, 11:48 PM
#18
The problem with moly is that it does not deal with heat well. In short you have to tig weld it and there are still some who will tell you that you need to heat treat it and do stress relief. In short it is a HUGE pita that is only worth less than 25% weight savings on the cage itself.
As a result of the huge difference in skill level required for a moly cage vs the rather limited benefit. I like most will happily pass on it.
As a result of the huge difference in skill level required for a moly cage vs the rather limited benefit. I like most will happily pass on it.
07-24-2011, 09:08 AM
#19
it's not a "should heat treat", it's a "MUST heat treat".
un-normalized chro-mo welds are weaker than mild steel (DOM). couple that with the thinner walls people make those cages out of, and you have an incredibly weak cage. The only places that can reliably build a chro-mo cage are places that can heat treat the entire chassis when it's done.
un-normalized chro-mo welds are weaker than mild steel (DOM). couple that with the thinner walls people make those cages out of, and you have an incredibly weak cage. The only places that can reliably build a chro-mo cage are places that can heat treat the entire chassis when it's done.
07-24-2011, 10:22 AM
#20
I have seen sources that state that proper (ER80S-D2 wire/rods) tig is enough. Others which you obviously subscribe to seem to feel that heat treating is a minimum and as I pointed out still others feel stress relief is also part of the equation.
Even though we do Tig, we are not interested in moly for all of the above. As with all racing there are two factors that for me make the bottom line on issues such as this. One is what is legal for the racing you will be doing. If PVC pipe and epoxy is a legal cage where you want to run then so be it. Secondly, as I will be in the car and as its my life on the line I need to ask what I am ok with as far as risk goes. For this reason I will not be using ERW as DOM is better in my mind. Even thought ERW will let me do everything aside from SCCA (which I may never do) I could save some cash but as I like me, I'm going with a proper DOM cage.
YMMV.
Even though we do Tig, we are not interested in moly for all of the above. As with all racing there are two factors that for me make the bottom line on issues such as this. One is what is legal for the racing you will be doing. If PVC pipe and epoxy is a legal cage where you want to run then so be it. Secondly, as I will be in the car and as its my life on the line I need to ask what I am ok with as far as risk goes. For this reason I will not be using ERW as DOM is better in my mind. Even thought ERW will let me do everything aside from SCCA (which I may never do) I could save some cash but as I like me, I'm going with a proper DOM cage.
YMMV.
07-24-2011, 06:42 PM
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Fl
Posts: 20
I would go ahead and heat treat chromoly. Even if it the metal is normalized, I would still heat treat it. GTAW is the process that most sanctioning bodies approve on Chromoly, and it does require a more skilled welder. But if I am trusting my life to someone I would want the most skilled/experienced person for the job.
Sorry for the poor grammar/editing...
Sorry for the poor grammar/editing...
Last edited by SM0KESH0W; 07-25-2011 at 10:01 AM.
07-25-2011, 06:57 AM
#25
No, it's not enough. Not to mention the price of moly tubing is outrageous. Unless you're building a pro car where every ounce matters, then don't bother with moly. it's fun for bragging rights, but then you have to properly put it together, heat treat it, AND get a sanctioning body to allow it to race.
you're much better off just going with DOM and calling it a day. As long as the welds are decent MIG, then it's strong enough to use.
you're much better off just going with DOM and calling it a day. As long as the welds are decent MIG, then it's strong enough to use.
08-02-2011, 10:51 AM
#27
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (60)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,036
Posted in your NA thread. If you're interested in talking to someone who actually has a full track maxima and knows how to drive, I can get you in touch with them. Most of what you'll find on the .org are glorified street cars.
08-27-2011, 10:00 AM
#28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 73
Hi, does anyone know if any of the P10/P11 Nissan chassis suspension parts are interchangeable? over this side of the pond we got the P10eGt and P11GT with stiffer suspension.
Having driven various P10's for the last 150,0000 miles or so the wallowy ride and sloppy cornering is taking some getting used to.
Having driven various P10's for the last 150,0000 miles or so the wallowy ride and sloppy cornering is taking some getting used to.
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