Advancing Timing on a 4.5 Gen.
02-13-2006, 06:27 AM
#1
Advancing Timing on a 4.5 Gen.
Well I've come to the conclusion that I obviously need to advance my timing, I've discussed this on several occassions with Tilley. He recommended the SMT-6. My questions are, will I detonate if I advance? I plan on advancing approx. 10 degrees. According to Tilley some guy in PA who dyno'd with an SMT-6 and a VQ35 got approx. 2 WHP per degree. Anything beyond 10 degrees the SES light for the CAM sensors started showing up. I don't want to go blowing my motor or anything.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
02-13-2006, 10:07 AM
#2
Originally Posted by HarrisH
Well I've come to the conclusion that I obviously need to advance my timing, I've discussed this on several occassions with Tilley. He recommended the SMT-6. My questions are, will I detonate if I advance? I plan on advancing approx. 10 degrees. According to Tilley some guy in PA who dyno'd with an SMT-6 and a VQ35 got approx. 2 WHP per degree. Anything beyond 10 degrees the SES light for the CAM sensors started showing up. I don't want to go blowing my motor or anything.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
02-13-2006, 03:29 PM
#3
Originally Posted by HarrisH
Well I've come to the conclusion that I obviously need to advance my timing, I've discussed this on several occassions with Tilley. He recommended the SMT-6. My questions are, will I detonate if I advance? I plan on advancing approx. 10 degrees. According to Tilley some guy in PA who dyno'd with an SMT-6 and a VQ35 got approx. 2 WHP per degree. Anything beyond 10 degrees the SES light for the CAM sensors started showing up. I don't want to go blowing my motor or anything.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
I recently read Chris'smax thread the S/C T/C forum and am trying to understand why his motor blew.
I've pulled the 0101 Cam sensor code and several other codes dozens of times trying to get the SMT6 to work and never once has it caused any engine damage. Worst case is that the ECU goes into a safe mode and you lose a bit of power.
With the superior VQ35 heads you can run as much timing as the SMT6 allows with the 4th gen ECU, just make sure to run 93 octane all the time. If your still worried about detonation, you can also set it up for dual mapping. I have a 12.5 A/F map with moderate advance for street and road course, then the other map is a 13.5 A/F map with the heavy timing advance for drag racing (used with race gas for good measure).
Also I would like to know who else got the SMT6 working and if they have the 4.5 gen dynos, I would love to see them.
02-13-2006, 04:00 PM
#4
Kevlo ran my fuel/timing map on his Max and it caused him to detonate at 4000 rpms on that same dyno in Texas. IIRC he can only run about 7~8 degrees advance overall without detonating.
This goes to show that the cookie cutter approach of "tuned" ECUs is not a good option for those that want to get the most out of their engine. Every car needs it's own tune to squeeze the most power out of it.
This goes to show that the cookie cutter approach of "tuned" ECUs is not a good option for those that want to get the most out of their engine. Every car needs it's own tune to squeeze the most power out of it.
02-13-2006, 05:25 PM
#6
Originally Posted by HarrisH
Well Tilley informed that I can probably run up to 10 degrees.
02-14-2006, 08:18 AM
#11
IMO the EU has a better solution for controlling timing. It controls the ignition signal output directly rather than adjusting the crank signal coming into the ECU. That way theoretically you should be able to advance as much as you need without throwing codes.
02-14-2006, 08:31 AM
#12
Originally Posted by DandyMax
IMO the EU has a better solution for controlling timing. It controls the ignition signal output directly rather than adjusting the crank signal coming into the ECU. That way theoretically you should be able to advance as much as you need without throwing codes.
02-15-2006, 08:47 PM
#13
Sorry for a dumb question, but is there any "cheapo" way to adjust timing like there is for Sentras?
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/...8/timing.shtml
I know we don't have a distributor but I wanted to make sure a similar method didn't exist. Also, I heard that with the Nissan CONSULT tool you can adjust timing but if you disconnect the battery/reset the ECU you lose it, which is kind of pointless.
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/...8/timing.shtml
I know we don't have a distributor but I wanted to make sure a similar method didn't exist. Also, I heard that with the Nissan CONSULT tool you can adjust timing but if you disconnect the battery/reset the ECU you lose it, which is kind of pointless.
02-15-2006, 08:55 PM
#14
Originally Posted by VQuick
I know we don't have a distributor but I wanted to make sure a similar method didn't exist.
Originally Posted by VQuick
Also, I heard that with the Nissan CONSULT tool you can adjust timing but if you disconnect the battery/reset the ECU you lose it, which is kind of pointless
If this was for the A32, then you're correct.
02-16-2006, 05:24 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by 98SEBlackMax
With the superior VQ35 heads you can run as much timing as the SMT6 allows with the 4th gen ECU, just make sure to run 93 octane all the time. If your still worried about detonation, you can also set it up for dual mapping. I have a 12.5 A/F map with moderate advance for street and road course, then the other map is a 13.5 A/F map with the heavy timing advance for drag racing (used with race gas for good measure).
And one for race gas. How far do you think we could go on a VQ35 with C-16 116 Octane race gas (I know where I can get it locally)? 15 degrees? 17 degrees? Will the ECU allow this? Do you think the engine could take it?
(Or does the gas need to be unleaded? If it needs to, I'm assuming the highest octane we can run is in the low 100 area)
If it's really about 2whp per degree, 15-17 degrees sounds very very nice.
My rice math calculator says this alone is good for .45 seconds and 4.5 mph in the 1/4
02-16-2006, 10:08 AM
#20
Originally Posted by JClaw
Say we got the Emanage Ultimate and set two maps. One for street use and 94 Octane (say 10-12 degrees advance).
And one for race gas. How far do you think we could go on a VQ35 with C-16 116 Octane race gas (I know where I can get it locally)? 15 degrees? 17 degrees? Will the ECU allow this? Do you think the engine could take it?
(Or does the gas need to be unleaded? If it needs to, I'm assuming the highest octane we can run is in the low 100 area)
If it's really about 2whp per degree, 15-17 degrees sounds very very nice.
My rice math calculator says this alone is good for .45 seconds and 4.5 mph in the 1/4
And one for race gas. How far do you think we could go on a VQ35 with C-16 116 Octane race gas (I know where I can get it locally)? 15 degrees? 17 degrees? Will the ECU allow this? Do you think the engine could take it?
(Or does the gas need to be unleaded? If it needs to, I'm assuming the highest octane we can run is in the low 100 area)
If it's really about 2whp per degree, 15-17 degrees sounds very very nice.
My rice math calculator says this alone is good for .45 seconds and 4.5 mph in the 1/4
02-16-2006, 10:17 AM
#21
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But do we have any evidence that we are getting anywhere close to this "limit" on the VQ35? I have yet to hear of any Z guys testing the limits of the engine N/A and coming up with a number. Even less for higher (100+) octane fuel. All we have are assumptions based on assumptions.
What I meant in my question is; Is the ECU going to put a stop to this at some point? If there is no detonation, will the ECU allow as much timing as the engine can take without detonating? Is the ECU only listening for detonation or is there a numerical limit to how much we can really advance timing?
All this of course only if the E-U works 100% correctly.
So do we have any evidence that 15 degrees advance is too much for a VQ35?
What I meant in my question is; Is the ECU going to put a stop to this at some point? If there is no detonation, will the ECU allow as much timing as the engine can take without detonating? Is the ECU only listening for detonation or is there a numerical limit to how much we can really advance timing?
All this of course only if the E-U works 100% correctly.
So do we have any evidence that 15 degrees advance is too much for a VQ35?
02-16-2006, 10:53 AM
#22
JClaw, if you run a leaded gasoline your O2's will not like you. Shortens their life drastically.
There should not be a limit to the advance with the EU since it does everything on its own post-ECU. That's why I like this method better than the SMT which changes the crank/cam signals on the way in and tries to fool the ECU.
As for how much timing advance you can run, well like was already said you just have to find out on the dyno. You will hit one of 2 points: either the engine will start to knock, or you'll reach the point where no further power will be gained even if it doesn't knock. These controls points are not just statically determined by the engine and gasoline parameters alone either (bore, compression ratio, octane rating etc), they're also impacted by environmental factors such as heat. High coolant and air/fuel charge temperatures will induce knock earlier.
There should not be a limit to the advance with the EU since it does everything on its own post-ECU. That's why I like this method better than the SMT which changes the crank/cam signals on the way in and tries to fool the ECU.
As for how much timing advance you can run, well like was already said you just have to find out on the dyno. You will hit one of 2 points: either the engine will start to knock, or you'll reach the point where no further power will be gained even if it doesn't knock. These controls points are not just statically determined by the engine and gasoline parameters alone either (bore, compression ratio, octane rating etc), they're also impacted by environmental factors such as heat. High coolant and air/fuel charge temperatures will induce knock earlier.
02-16-2006, 05:50 PM
#24
The SMT-6 is the only unit that has dual mapping? There's allways alot of talk in the advance motor forum about ignition timing and A/F tuning but not so much on which programs can run dual maps. Pardon my newbness.
03-02-2006, 08:38 PM
#26
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1
the resistor HP boost
I was wondering on the timing issue, i read about a small resistor being placed in the intake air temperature sensor boosting the HP by a max of 20 HP. Just wondering if anyone has done so and if you have i would like to see a picture of where to put it, b/c the sensor described apparantely was described to me on another car. the guy didn't know what he was talking about but i have been reading about the resistor and just wondering about it
03-03-2006, 06:22 AM
#27
Originally Posted by splooge6584
i read about a small resistor being placed in the intake air temperature sensor boosting the HP by a max of 20 HP.
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