Hey for those of you tuning with the Innovate WBO2 systems.

I've read the manuals for the LC-1 and SSI-4 and LM-1 and LMA-2 and XD-16
Here:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php

Here are the two setups that I considered:
1) LC-1 + SSI-4 + XD-16
A/F data from the LC-1 + 5 channels from the SSI-4
Data Logging from a laptop only
Push Button calibrations + display + warning, etc. from the XD-16

2) LM-1 + LMA-2 + XD-16
A/F data from the LM-1 + 5 channels from the LMA-2
Data logging from the LM-1 or from a Laptop
Push Button calibrations + display + warning, etc. from the XD-16
Push Button Logging on the LM-1 from the XD-16

From what I have listed above, the only advantage of the LM-1 system over the LC-1 system is the available logging on the unit. I will be logging via laptop, so the bulky unit doesn't quite appeal to me.

I am looking for some experiences/tips from anyone who is running the Innovate WBO2 systems. Any info or discussion would be appreciated including any problems encountered, and good feedback, and wiring tips, etc.
One thing I was wondering was, if I go with the LC-1 setup, should I save myself the $100 and go with the DB gauge instead of the XD-16, or is the XD-16 really beneficial?

I've seen some information scattered throughout the threads & stickies, but I would like to get some direct feedback or discussion before going ahead with the investment.

Please don't shoot me down because I'm looking for a little bit of direction.

Thanks.

 

I have the LC-1 bare and have used it with the Emanage Ultimate and UTEC with good success.

Recently I got the LM-1 + LMA-3 + DB Gauge. The LMA-3 has the RPM, MAP Sensor, EGT, accelerometer and injector duty cycle built in so much more functionality than the other accessories. I like the LM-1 because I can store a whole day at the track if necessary without having the laptop connected. Some tracks are very picky about laptops in cars. Apparently the accelerometer is very accurate and HP and TQ readings are very close to dyno readings as well.

You could also go with the LC-1 and LMA-3 too. I got my LM-1 and LMA-3 for $489. Which ever way you go I think you will be happy. Just don't go cheap and wish later you had spent another $100 later.

 

I'm going to read-up a little bit about the LMA-3 and get back to you.
I had seen on one of the posts that the SSI-4 had to go with the LC-1 and the LMA-2 with the LM-1 while the LMA-3 was overkill, so I overlooked it.

Thanks for the post, any reason why you went with the DB instead of the XD-16? I guess that if your LM-1 is mounted somewhere accessible, then the remote record stop/start from the XD-16 doesn't really matter then.

Can I ask you where you sourced your equipment? $489 seems like a fantastic deal for those considering that MSRP is ~$600......

 

Got my LM-1 + LMA-3 here http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IN%2D3756

The software I use with my UTEC auto starts the logging so I don't really need the XD-16 to record. The cost of the XD-16 in comparison to the DB ($229 to $99) is a bit much for what it does.

The LM-1 is only 4x1.5x1 so not very large either and I plan on mounting it within reach.

 

The LMA-3 looks like a fantastic device.

Here's some background on my upcoming project:
I bought a s/c setup from another .org member, so I will be boosting this spring.
This is my first time doing a project of this type, so I've read a very large amount of information in the past couple of weeks.
I'm pretty inexperienced with boost & tuning, but I think that I'm becoming somewhat knowledgeable due to all of the research that I've been doing.

I have some questions:

1) I've never used an accelerometer to calculate HP/TQ before, I assume that you take the G measurements, and combine them with vehicle mass & time it took for the reading (sample time) to calculate HP.
I think that Power is (P=FV=maV), so you would need the speed as well right? Or could you calculate the speed from the acceleration and the sample time?
The Torque would just be the HP divided by the rotational speed, so you'd need your wheel + tire height and the vehicle speed right?
Or you could just calculate (T=Fr=mar) where the r is the radius of the tire+rim.
Does air drag come into account?
In any case, does the included software have the ability to calculate these, or have you set-up your own spreadsheet with the calculations?

2) As I will be boosting, the MAP sensor looks great for logging. The manual states that using the recommended 1/4" tube will give you the most accurate readings (As they're compared to absolute vacuum). Are you using the MAP feature, or are you for ex. tapping your boost gage voltage? If you are using the MAP sensor were no complications tapping after the TB were there?

3) Are there any tricks to measuring our RPM, or does the manual cover the setup as good as it seems to? I apologize that I haven't gotten around to comparing these setups to the FSM diagrams yet. (Yeah I know I should have).

4) Do you use the Injector Duty Cycle calculation, and if so were there any tricks to the setup? Other than monitoring these to verify changes while tuning, are there any real benefits to measuring the duty cycle?

5) From what I've read, the EGT is used only to give an indication of if the A/F ratio is Rich (Cooler) or lean (Hotter). What is the benefit of using the EGT when you already have an accurate A/F ratio?

6) Are there specific benefits with using the TPS for logging, if you plan on tuning your A/F with for ex. an Apexi neo?

Thanks for your help so far, it's always helpful to have some direct discussions about these things in addition to reading old posts & stickies.

- Jonathan

 

Johnathan I am currently in Fla until April and I bought it while down here so I can't answer much. I brought the G35 down here so it won't get installed until I get home to Ontario.

The accelerometer requires weight, tire size, gearing, drag coeff etc.

Sorry can't tell you much more until I get to play with it.

 

Hey thanks anyway.

I'm going to continue searching a bit for info before buying it anyway.

As of now, I plan on getting everything together over the next month or so before building.....

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on Post #5?

 

I like using TPS for logging because it tells me when I go/went WOT. RPM is based on frequency and most logging software has an accurate conversion (for 4cyl/V6/coil on coil). You could use the FSM, but like I said, most have an accurate system built in. Actual AFR is better, IMO, than EGT. EGT can tell you/clue you in on some of the story, but remember that leaner is not always hotter. EGT's actually cool somewhat after 'perfect' burn is achieved. IDC/IPW is good for data heads, but most importantly helps figuring out VE.

 

One benefit of the XD-16 over the cheaper DB gauge is it allows you to calibrate (and re-calibrate) your O2 sensor really easily w/o having to make a temporary button to do so. The XD-16 also displays error codes which helps troubleshooting tremendously.

Here's one tip. When you buy your stuff, don't use the instructions that you print off the included CD. Instructions are old, horrible and confusing and I burned many brain cells trying to figure out what they meant. Just download the latest and greatest instructions direct from Innovate's website. These instructions are much clearer, and make installation a snap.

As for problems encountered, there online forum does this in great detail, all though I bet most of it is user error or stupidity. I've had great success with my LC-1 and XD-16 gauge. Originally, I bought the SSI-4 with the LC-1, but never installed it since I got the EU shortly after and tied the WB into it.

Download all the instructions and read them several times over. That's how I decided the LC-1 was the clear choice for me. The LMA-3 was a bit complicated and over the top for me when I was researching this topic a year ago.

 

Yeah I've read through their forums, and it does seem like a lot of repeated questions that could have been solved with a bit of reading and troubleshooting.

I've actually read the manuals for most of their equipment at this point, and the manuals are pretty well written/clear.

You mentioned calibrating the o2's from the XD-16, aren't you supposed to do an "Free air" calibration? Or does it count at free air if the car has been sitting for a few hours? (When calibrating with the WB in the exhaust of course)

I agree with the WOT measurement, as well as the EGT comment.
From what I understand, the EGT can give an indication of lean/rich, but the WBO2 would do a much better job of this anyway. So are there any benefits of measuring the EGT?

Please explain the acronym's here somebody please:
"IDC/IPW is good for data heads, but most importantly helps figuring out VE."

Thank You.

P.S. Does anyone ahve any thoughts on the MAP, G, and Injector Duty comments from Post #5?

LM-1 on the way
LMA-3 in the works
Neo on the Way

 

Just hit me.....sorry

Injector Duty Cycle
Injector Pulse-width

But VE?

Probly gonna hit me in a minute.....

 

I'm not a boosting member anytime soon, so I cannot comment on MAP. I'm also not a big fan of G-meters/accelerometers, so I'll leave out commenting on that one.

We cleared up the IDC/IPW/VE. It could help when attempting to calculate volumetric efficiency, though you will need other items for that equation.

Since you are boosting, you will want to keep an eye on IDC since you will more than likely need to upgrade your injectors. It be good to see what hp levels require an upgrade.

 

Definitely, I've decided to see where I'll get with the stock Fuel Pump + T-rex in-line (With some guidance from the Wizard).

I decided that I don't want to mess with my injectors yet, as this is my first project. I'll also be running my 5th Gen MAF. From what I gather, the injectors and pump are the big restrictions, with the MAF soon after.

The 3.33" pulley showed up a bit mangled, so it looks like I'll be going with the 3.125" pulley that's on the blower. From what I've read, this will be good for 11psi, which the stock injectors and the above-mentioned fuel setup should handle.

I should have the LM-1 and LMA-3 so I'll be able to log lots of data to help me figure everything out.....and to post of course.

I've been researching for a few weeks now, and have a pretty good handle on everything. Now I just have to find time to get at it.

 

A quick FYI, you can increase the limitof your MAF by making the housing bigger. Many vehicles use the same sensor as the 5th gen, so it tends to drop into some housings with ease.

This may complicate things a bit, but nonetheless, food for thought.

 

I'll be locating mine on the CAI side, so that might actually work out well (Say 3"). Are there tricks to centering the sensor in the middle of the x-section of the pipe?

I'll do a search on this, but if you know of any threads, the links would be much appreciated.

Thanks for the info.

 

Being a 5th gen, it seems you have to mount the MAF on the CAI side. This is how Stillen designed it, and has been proven to work the best.

Not sure if you saw this old thread in your searches, but here's what I'm talking about.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....1135&highlight

 

I was a bit vague with my point there I think...

I will be locating my MAF on the CAI side, more than 18" from the blower to avoid turbulent issues.

My question was about locating the actual MAF sensor in the middle of the x-section of the new housing that would replace the stock housing.

NmexMax commented that the limits of the MAF could be increased by using a larger housing, and I was curious whether you would get the correct air flow readings if the sensor was not centered in the flow path.

Closer to the sides the air flow can stagnate, and is slowed down from the viscous interaction with the side-walls.

I was wondering if the sensor would reach the entire way into the middle with a larger housing, the obvious answer would be no, since it is shorter to accommodate the stock smaller ID housing.

I wanted to know if this actually caused problems, or if I was just over-thinking it.

Thanks for the link though.

 

MAF sensor positioning talk: http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...91&postcount=4

Read the entire thread, it's good.

 

Good thread.

So as a daily driver, the problems encountered using a "short" sensor during Laminar flow (partial throttle) would probably be hard to tune out right now, as I will undoubtedly be tuning many things already. (with the initial s/c setup).

The one thing that I didn't consider was the step down in velocity due to the larger x-section. Yet another thing that would need tuning across the board.

So it looks like for now, as stated earlier, I'm going to go with the stock MAF, Injectors, and FP with the T-rex aux to start. I'll log whatever I can after I build the setup and see what maxes out first.

Then comes time for the fun stuff.

Note: I do have 8 purple top injectors, which were included when I bought the setup. They seem to be of two different makes, but the member assured me that they have the same properties. It's something that I haven't looked into yet, but will be interesting to learn about in the coming months/weeks/days. I also have a Z32 MAF that was included, but it looks like I'll be getting rid of this, as there are wiring issues vs the 5th gen's. Again, I haven't looked into this much as I've been concentrating on the Tuning & initial setup that I'll be running.....

 

Letting the car sit for a few hours is not good enough. You must either:
A- remove the sensor and let it hang out of the exhaust and then do your calibration or
B- Find a nice long hill. I know at least for 5spds (never tried this in an auto) when you are going down hill, in gear, with your foot off of the gas, the fuel shuts off. After a few seconds, only pure air is flowing through the exhaust. You can then do a calibration, but you need a pretty long hill to make sure you complete it. As soon as you touch the gas, your getting fuel again, so that will screw up the calibration if it is not finished yet.

 

Autos are the same way. Mine goes offscale when coasting.

 

The advantage of the LM-1 is the 2 line 16 character display plus a calibrate and log button with 44 mins of storage. (N0 PC required) Price with DB gauge is $379 vs $399 for LC-1 and XD-16 so more functionality for less money. Much more expandability as well for future. Some guys don't even bother with the gauge and use the LCD readout on the LM-1 instead, so then it only costs $279 with all the features of the LC-1/XD-16.

Logworks is pretty impressive too, watch the Logworks/LM-1 video on the Innovate site.

 

Yeah I've watched their videos, Logworks looks awesome.

I've been a bit tied up recently, still writing Mid Terms, but I managed to find a used LM-1, LMA-3 and XD-16 that should be arriving in the next week or so.
Decided to take your advise from earlier in the thread about the LMA-3.

I installed the B&M Transmission cooler last night, I'll get pics up later, so things are starting to get rolling. Planning on installing the Blower in the first few weeks of March......

 

This is all very true, but I took all of that into consideration and agonized about the decision for a month but I before I bought my setup.

Mounting the LM-1 with Innovate's stuff is expensive, and I didn't like the placement too. When I tried to come up with a nifty way of mounting it myself so I could keep an eye on it as I drove, I came up with only 1 ok idea. Also, I'd have to have the LM-1 loose under my seat or take up all the space in the glove box when not in use. Not good for spirited driving. I didn't care about logging with the LM-1, because I figured I'd have my laptop in the car (easy to mount and secure) to log AND tune right afterwards (EU on board)

Sure it's expandable, but for the average Joe, the expandability is overkill and will never be utilized. And adding a LMA-3 to the mix isn't cheap, especially in comparison to the LM-1 itself.

Plus, I'm a sucker for digital gauges. Being mounted on my steering column, it's much easier to see a real number on the XD-16 than have to stare and see where the needle is on the DB gauge.

I agree, the logworks program is pretty impressive.

Everyone has their own needs/desires. To each there own.

 

Not so bad if you spend a few hours scanning the classifieds section of other forums.......

Pretty sure that the DB is a digital gauge (Given that it's featureless), the G# series are the ones with the needles. I see where you're coming from though.
Had to go with the digital number readout myself.

 

I don't know if you have a fan or not for the B&M but might not be a bad idea especially with the blower. I have one for N/A and I also by-pass the stock cooler, I don't believe it provides much cooling and I'd like to have all the cooling I can get for the engine. I also think a temp gauge is necessary especially with a hi-stall converter. I also have a press gauge but did that just to know what was happening, don't think its really necessary.

 

I also bypassed the stock cooler. One thing was quite interesting, but I'll get to that once I can get some pics.

I'm planning on getting a temp gauge as well, but have bigger concerns on my mind at the moment.

The gauge will tell me whether I need a fan or not. Remember, I live on the coast, so a "Hot" summer day is 25 Deg C.

 

Yup, you guys are right. I though this gauge was the DB gauge.....http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
I believe the DB gauge was not offered back when I bought my setup, only the XD-16 and the analog one shown in the above link...hence my confusion....... or I just plain missed it somehow.


Just curious, why are you bypassing the stock cooler? I've read on more than one occassion that you are supposed to run your new cooler with the OEM cooler in series.

Also, FWIW, I bought my LC-1 with XD-16 setup from an Authorized Innovate dealer (Injected Performance) for $305.71 shipped.

 

I had read a bunch of threads on this, and I admit there are mixed opinions.
The instructions do advise to run the B&M cooler along with the stock cooler, but I decided against it. I haven't seen any reports of overheating when running just the B&M Cooler, so I figured that I would try it.

Most "intercoolers" and similar devices cool by initially acting as heat sinks while the fluid runs through, while constantly (slowly) transferring heat away from the unit via the passing air.

I figured that during the summer, the radiator has to handle the heat from the engine (Coolant), and has to try and transfer this heat to a warm outside temperature. If I removed the heat of the transmission fluid from the radiator (Stock cooler), then it should work more efficiently for the coolant.

Also, running transmission fluid through a radiator that is constantly receiving heat from the coolant doesn't seem like a very efficient system. You are passing warm fluid into a warm system, so the stock cooler (Radiator acting as a heat sink) will bring the transmission fluid closer to the temperature of the coolant rather than cool it.

This system will cool the fluids as they pass through the radiator via the passing air, but it will also share the heat of the two fluids as they enter .

I figured that with less fluid (Mass) in the radiator, the radiator should be able to remove heat from the coolant more efficiently. The removal of the transmission fluid should also remove a lot of the heat input to the system. Also, with the transmission fluid passing through its own cooler (B&M), it should receive the cooling that it needs.

I could be wrong, Just my opinion........