KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

I always hear of people chasing this crazy animal called midbass and never catching him you know. I wonder what people expect when they put their speakers on a high-pass crossover. I once ran my setup at full range to see what it sounded like and I was surprised how much bass my 6.5" speakers produced. But even crossing them off at even 70hz reduces the non-subwoofer bass to a minimum. In fact, some factory stereos produce more "bass" in the stock locations than my amplified speakers do because they are run at full range.
But what frequencies are people referring to when they talk about "midbass"? Is is 80-500hz or thereabouts? Is there anyone on here who can cross their speakers over at 80-100 hz and honestly say that their speakers are producing loud bass? I always thought that the sub is supposed to do the bass and the mids do everything else. I think some people tend to judge their components harshly because they aren't banging away inside the door, eventhough they are crossed off at 100hz. Am I missing something here?

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

The midbass region consists as low as 60hz-250 hz region, while the 'kick bass' part of the midbass is 80hz-220hz ...

Its good to consider the regions in octaves...(not accuratly , but somewhat...
)
~20-40hz - sub-bass
~40-80 hz- bass
~80-200 hz-mid-bass

The problem lies in a single driver playing that long of a freq stretch(for example a 2way passive set- mid plays 80-2500hz, tweeter 2500 hz up) The bigger the freq response the more the compromise of a particular driver. Thats why most mids in a 2way set sound weak. The higher it plays the less oomph it can mechanically deliver at the lower end of that freq range. You are asking a speaker to be a 'jack of all trades'.

Also the lower a mid can play , allows more pleasing sub integation into your fronsatage. The higher your fronstage is xover, the bigger the chance of localization.
The whole point of achieving a good soundstage is that you want the sound to appear as if its uniform playing in front of you-localization is counterproductive for this goal.

SC2K1

iTrader: (5)

I found this on a website once but don't remember where. You might find it helpful:

I have just re-read the "importance of midbass" post and feel that it may well be worth expanding on EFMAX's points regarding midbass, to cover the entire frequency range of instruments. I have also noticed a lot more questions on eq's recently, and their use.

A lot of you know that I am a bit of an sq fiend, I am one of the few people on here that often turns of the sub just to check it's still running...I personally like sub bass as an anchor for the low end and to add warmth to the music. To me, mid and midbass is the key.

Mid and Midbass IS critical. let's look at the frequency response of some instruments and see where all the action is. I am not going to go into the the differences of Fundemental and Harmonic frequencies, and how they interact (I can if need be), this is more of an overview of what frequencies make up what.

For those of us who listen to acoustic music, apposed to synthesised dance music, for want of a better description, I shall take some drums, bass guitar, electric guitar, and vocals.

I shall work through the frequencies rather than the instruements, as this will allow us to see where there are complimentary frequencies (different instruments produce the same sound).

50hz (usually sub bass)
this freq is where all the boom is, if you want more boom on foot drums and bass guitar, boost, to reduce, cut.

100hz( usually mid bass)
this is the hard bass sound, it gives drums that solid feel, boosting here will harden the drums/bass guitar, as well as adding warmth to guitars. A cut will reduce boom on guitar and add clarity.

200hz (either midbass/mid)
Boost to add warmth to vocals and guitar, reduce to clean up vocals

400hz (usually mid / large Horn)
Boost to bass in general, reduce to decrease cardboard sound low drums.

800hz(usually mid/horns)
Boost to add clarity and Punch to bass, this is the one that digs you in the ribs , cut to reduce tinnyness to guitars

1.5khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to add clarity to bass guitar, reduce to impreve dullness of guitar

3khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to increase pluck on bass guitar, attack on guitar and high drums, increases clarity of vocals.
Cut to reduce breathy sound on vocals.

5khz(mid/tweet/horns)
boost for vocal presence, low drum attack, piano attack, and guitars, reduce to distance background.

7khz(usually tweet/horn)
boost, more attack on low drums, percussion and bring life to dull vocals, also sharpen elctric guitar
Cut to reduce siblance

10khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano
cut to reduce siblance

15khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano highs


Right, looking down this list we can see that if we want a good solid bass line ( add @100hz), that's not boomy (cut @ 50hz), with good punch (add @ 800hz), with good attack ( boost at 5-7khz), most of the action is in the midbass and midrange area, with only boominess being in the sub area.

This also highlights one of the main benefits of horns( the huge range they cover).

Understanding these frequencies also allows for fine tuning things like stage height (more attack of drums gives perception of a higher stage), and adding depth, ( make background sounds more distant)

This is not really even an introduction apparantly, and I thought I was doing well when I understood this lot, but there's more, so much more.....

Hope this helps some


(I did not write the above)

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the article man. That helped out alot.

MannyNJ: What you're saying makes sense. I installed some components this weekend and changed to a 70hz crossover point on my amps and the sub does seem to integrate into the system better now. Before I had it set at 100hz and had some old coaxes up front and the sub sounded like it was noticeably behind me a ways.

Where do you guys cross over the subs/mids?

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

yeah, the more of the freq range you can bring up front helps the stage...Typically 2way you'll be hard pressed to go lower than 80hz....it seems the lowest common area a 6.5" can feel controlled in our doors. As for the sub, the steeper the slope on the xover the smoother it'll blend in up front.

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

I just looked at my manual for my sub amp and it says it has a 24db/octave crossover slope. Im assuming that this is "steep" as compared to 6 or 12db/octave? All in all, Im pretty happy with my system now. The sub is a little boomy with rap and sort of absent with rock music unless the car isn't moving or the volume is up real loud. Im sure some deadening would help with this and midbass response but car audio is so addicting to me that I've just got to stop at some point or I will end up spending a couple of g's on it in the long run. I would like to get a 5v eclipse h/u but one of my amps says it takes 3v signal max and the other takes a 4v signal maximum. I don't want to damage these amps, especially my old school punch. My current h/u says it provides 2.2v but I doubt that. I have to turn the gains up 75% or more on both the amps.
So you SQ guys probably don't hear much out of your subs do you? I assume that you use no bass boost and sealed enclosures right? I would rather have some boom in my music as opposed to a perfectly flat response. I would like to hear a good SQ system at some point to form some opinions on one though.

BBOYSTEVIE

I had my 6.5 CA18's crossed at 63 hz at 24 db slope (to the last poster, yes it is steeper). Deadening the doors and sealing them off is essential to get midbass....essential. For anyone at either of the ECA meets, Frank/Hoopties has his 6.5 DLS's crossed at 50 hz and it sounded incredible. I'm hoping to get it down to 40 with the 8's (more like 9's ) in my doors now.

Yes The SQ guys have the subs playing as little as possible. Some even turn off the subs for SQ testing/daily listening and turn them back on to get their SPL points.

A lot of people classify the frequencies that (for the SQ guys) are midbass as bass. Solid midbass (specially up front) will make the actual bass playing underneath it sound 100x better, IMO.

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

Couldn't you boost frequencies around 100hz to make up for a lack of sound deadening? Not for competition purposes or anything but for decent everyday use? Im afraid to spend all that money and time to deaden the doors and then have the power window motor fail or something. 4th gens at least have issues with the power windows. Thanks for all the advice.

nismos14

iTrader: (56)

It won't make up for not having deadening, it may make it SOUND like it is, but essentially you'll be over driving you're speaker to achieve what you're looking for. You don't have to deaden you're entire door, just enough to deaden and seal up behing the speaker.

BBOYSTEVIE

There's a reason I said essential. I guess it depends how good you want music to sound/how much your'e willing to sacrifice. A car is a terrible place for a stereo, naturally. People that want a system that easily "drops" right into a car without dampenind/mod will have cars that sound like they were "just dropped in".

Consider covering the big hole w/ a piece of wood/plexi that can be unsealed if needbe.