- Ian and I were very eager to try out our newly disconnected Front Sway Bar today... so of course, something went wrong. That something was an annoyingly tight course (tight stuff, u-turn, straight, u-turn, way-too-tight-slalom, straight, etc.)

- Regardless, we played around with tire pressures and the RSB adjustment. The car had the following hardware:

Eibach springs, Koni dampers, disconnected FSB, Stillen RSB, FSTB, 15x6" wheels, 205/55/15 Falken Azenis. Front Koni's were at half-stiff the entire day. Tire pressures were as follows: 37front/34rear (runs 1&2) and 47front/44rear (run 3 and two fun-runs). Higher pressures were better.

- Since the course was really, really tight, we ended up moving the RSB as absolutely far forward as it would mount on the trailing arms to get the maximum effect. It is NOT possible to go any farther forward with the supplied clamps. The RSB was so stiff that we were picking up the inside rear in corners - just like it used to when it was so entertaining to drive on the stock springs and shocks. And yes, the forward clamps bang on the body if you hit any remotely large bumps. Sigh...

- The handling improved to the point that we enjoyed ourselves, but it was nowhere near the massive oversteering nightmare that we were really hoping for. There was one sweeping left-hander that came off the straight at about 55-60mph, turned slightly left, then dove into a tight left-handed u-turn. It was the only corner that we could really get some speed and weight working for us. The car bit into the corner like it had fangs and it felt very neutral. I got the feeling that we could have entered in some sharp steering and/or braking inputs and gotten the rear to fly out at that corner. Of course, we only had three runs to secure a win, so we didn't do that.

- Anyhow, I think that the verdict is that the disconnection of the FSB was worth it. The car has been perfectly fine on the street without the bar and it enters corners with a lot more zeal than it used to. I am slightly worried about driving the car in the rain, but not to the point where I would reconnect the bar. I'll just try not to do anything stupid (man, that's going to be hard).

- The car still isn't handling the way I want it to, though. Ian and I are wondering if it might be the fact that the car prefers courses that are a bit faster (35-55mph) than today (20-30mph)... If not that, we can do some or all of the following:

1. Put front dampers back down to full soft
2. Install and use my new Camber Plates
3. Stagger the tire sizes front to rear so that my fresher 16" are up front and the current old 15" are in the back.
4. Place rear springs on highest perch (currently on middle perch) to effectively stiffen them more.
5. Reduce weight up front by removing FSB and/or relocating battery to trunk.

- Ian and I will be driving in the event at Jacksonville in two weeks. I have a feeling that the car is going to be somewhere close to how it was before I put the springs and shocks on the car - which is a good thing. However, I think that we still have a ways to go. I'm hoping that the Camber Plates will fix that. We'll keep you updated.


Matt

 

- I did forget to mention above that the car got a huge amount of positive attention at the event. Ian and I had tons of people coming up to us to congratulate us on our driving and to check out the car. One guy simply walked up to say, "I like your Maxima." It was pretty cool to see so many people that enthusiastic about our family-sedan adventure.

- We also took first and second in what seemed to be a very competitive class. There were seven drivers in all. One guy drove a Nissan NX2000 with coilovers and full race rubber... Another had a Mini Cooper on stickies... and Grassroots Motorsports even brought out their STS-prepared Honda Civic Si (the newest body style). We were genuinely worried at the start of the day - then the Max just impressed.

- Ian put in a very fast 72.3 second run and I followed with a 73.3 second run. Ian discovered that we were taking the slalom the wrong way after the trophy presentation which allowed us to both shave an additional two seconds off our official times during fun runs. It was a stupid mistake on our part, but at least we finished ahead of the pack.

- Regardless, I was thrilled at how well the car performed today and how much enthusiasm we garnered. It was a really great feeling to be pseudo-celebrities up and down the entire pit row.

 

- I forgot to address the concern that disconnecting the FSB would result in more wheelspin...

- Fortunately, it did not. The way I see it is that the lack of a FSB allows for completely independent motion of the two front struts. While this allowed the outside tire to take more of a beating (roll-over was indeed a bit worse without the FSB), the inside wheel could plant itself down with more authority. And, since our open-diff cars will spin the inside wheel under power, this kept the wheel planted and ensured better traction.

- The course was also slow, so the car was out of the powerband when exiting a lot of corners, but I'm still convinced that the lack of a FSB contributed to keeping that inside wheel planted.

 

my $.02

After moving the Sway bar and playing with tire pressures the car was about the most neutral front wheel drive car I have ever driven. Despite several 1st gear area's on course, I had no problem with wheel spin. I ran a mini cooper for a fun run and bested my time in the maxima by a full second but the mini with almost no HP had all kinds of wheel spin problems. Their was an optional salaom on the course which entering one way added nearly 40ft to the course but gave a great exit. The other way was obviously shorter but tighter to get into and the exit wasn't nice. about 50/50 split on who went each way so we never even thought to try it. I ran one run in the mini the way we had run in the maxima and ran about a full second slower then the maxima. (mini was on bran new Azenis ours were DEAD). The next lap I ran to the inside of the salaom and bettered my time by over 2 seconds. Matt Saw this an ran to the inside on his last fun run and bettered his time by a full second.

On a side note the Falkens up front were showing cords all the way around for the last couple runs. The car would have really benefited from the 215/45 azenis sitting in my garage. We are waiting on the 16 x7.5 wheels to actually come in. In my opinion the close to 50lbs off the front of the car from completely removing the sway bar and relocating the battery to the trunk should make really help the car out. The thing that is bothering me now is the steering ratio. I'd like to investigate other steering racks for the car to get a quicker ratio. I'm used to an S2000 and a Miata where half a turn is a U turn and I feel all the work we are doing on the wheel is slowing it down.
Anyway, i would deffently call the removal of the front sway bar a success.

Oh and Matt, I'm sorry I'll be driving the S2000 in jacksonville. Jason and I will need to play with the Koni's there because the following weekend is the PRO at talladega. I will however help you out with the max as usual!

 

- Ian, sorry about that... I didn't mean to imply that you were driving the Max at the Whitehouse event. I know that you'll be playing with your shiny new S2000. Are you going to have the Koni's on the car by then?

- I had some fun on the way back to Tally today. Sean and all of our stuff was in the car, so I didn't go crazy. The few corners that I did take were pretty sweet. The turn-in is unbelievable - I kept cranking in more and more to see what it would do - it just kept turning in. I couldn't coax the rear out, but you know that I've got the crappy tires up front. We'll see what happens when we even the wheels and tires out (hopefully this week).

- I'm anxious to see if you-know-who gets off their asses and gets me my frickin' wheels! Catch you later.

 

it's been 6 months, Your aloud to bad mouth them now!

 

So jealous you got an event in already. Are any of the results posted on a site yet (yeah, ok, only 7 results). Was Per driving the GRM Civic? They were struggling with setup on that thing all last year.

Hmmm - drop the FSB and move battery...I just might find that 59/41 balance yet.

 

If your really missing some events come on down here. If we had some good events near my place i'd say your more then welcome to crash here. Seriously come down for the National tour and pro solo in Ft. myres. Leave your car at the site for the week between and fly home. Or a little closer go to the P.R.O event at talladega at the end of this month. It's going to be fun. No big cars are signed up for their STS like class so you could take it and walk away with the big awards money. Sani and the other over6racing crew are coming down for the event.

Per wasn't driving the Si. Per is concentrating on his Celica effort, and Tim is driving the mini. Dave wallens has Si duty these days.

 

Very, very nice.

How far forward is the RSB from the beam... 1"? 2"? No idea...? I'm just trying to visualize it, because I don't actually know what the limit of adjustment is. (I was just under a Maxima today too, I should have checked!)

 

- Just going off of memory, the bar is at least two inches forward of the beam. You know how the trailing arms have that indentation in them...? and Stillen uses that indentation to mold the clamps around... well, we went as far forward as that indentation goes. It is literally impossible to mount it any more forward without redesigning the mounting clamps. The downside is that the forward clamp is so far up that it crashes on the body over just about anything other than a smooth road. We'll either move the RSB back or hammer out the body.
- We do know that the RSB is so stiff that we're picking up the inside rear by at least 5-6 inches in corners. VW ain't got nothin' on us!

- I finally had an opportunity to take a really hard corner yesterday on my way to work. I was at the mid-top of second (about 50mph) making a left across a big intersection. The car turned in like mad, I felt it start to transition the weight to all the tires, and then I felt the rear tires starting to do a bit more of the work than they should've been. Just as I was about to let the car work itself into an awesome slide, I realized that the outside rear tire that was now doing a lot of the work was my half-flat, no-tread, about-to-die Pirelli. I realized that there was a good chance that I was going to pop the tire off the rim, so I immediately got on the gas and took a wider line.
- We've finally gotten the car to handle! Next stop is joining the other oversteering FWD sedans in the British Touring Car Championship!

 

right,

so I know this thread is O L D, but I wonder how this 'mod' would perform on the road course...

I am curious as how this would improve turn in, as I was under the impression that a less stiff front would make the front suspension a bit more sluggish and increase front body roll. My brother has his front sway bar disconnected on his 4runner (for off-road suspension travel) and it LEANS like a **** on even slight turns. Of course I understand that the geometry is completely different on a raised truck, but if someone could explain to me the physics/benefits of this mod I might be willing to try it on my next trip to the road course.

 

Trucks use softer valve rates on their struts for more articulation on trails ... almost same idea with FSB dis-connecting (which dis-connects right from left compressing). Stiffer struts, whether by shock or springs keep each wheel on the ground (that's their job). Sway bars have a double edge effects. hope this helps ...

 

hmm, so you're saying that with a softer suspension set up, the sway bar helps keep the car from leaning, but with a stiffer more performance oriented suspension, the sway bar can actually go too far and be detrimental? As in prevent adequate camber change on corners?

 

- Here's the basics on anti-sway bars:

A sway bar works by connecting the two sides of a suspension. If you are making a right-hand turn, the left side suspension will compress and the body will lean. To prevent this lean, you can do two things; either increase the spring rates (the springs themselves will resist the movement) or you use a sway bar... As the car makes the corner and that left side suspension compresses, the sway bar pulls on the right-side suspension, preventing the left-side suspension from compressing. This resistance to compression is what keeps the body flat.

So one of the nice things about sway bars is that you can prevent body lean without having to resort to ride-killing stiff springs. The disadvantage is that sway bars act as a kind of crutch to the overall suspension system. You are preventing your suspension from working, from doing what its supposed to do: compressing. When your brother goes off-roading, he needs for his individual corners to be able to compress and stretch to match the varying contours of the trail that he's on. He trades articulation for body roll.

When I disconnected my front sway bar, I was effectively letting my front suspension do its thing and compress. At the same time, I have stiff rear springs, stiff rear shocks, and a stiff rear sway bar. Needless to say, the rear suspension is extremely resistant to motion. Because the rear suspension is held back by my mods from compressing, it cannot keep the rubber tight against the road. It hops and skips and slides across the surface. As a result, I can get the rear to kick out.

My front suspension, on the other hand, does not have nearly as much resistance to movement as the rear. It compresses and allows the tires to remain in contact with the road, improving front grip. Of course, the trade-off is increased body roll. However, because the car has been lowered, the roll is nowhere near as severe as a disconnected FSB on a stock Maxima.

I consider the removal of my FSB to be a great asset in the handling department. The car turns in much, much better than it used to and I am able to get the rear out much easier. I hope that I answered your question as to what a sway bar does and why its used.


P.S. The Maxima uses a strut-type front suspension, which means that it does not build camber in a corner as you noted above. You can use adjustable camber plates, like what I have on my Max... but those offer "static" camber. That is, you set it and the camber stays at that setting whether its in a straight line or in a corner. Vehicles with double-wishbones build camber in corners as the suspension compresses (ie, "dynamic" camber).

 

So Matt, how does this translate again on course? You've got better grip coming out of hairpins and sweepers? But lose some crispness and gain body roll in slaloms?

Have you run course "A" back to back with the FSB connected and disconnected? Could you estimate the time difference on a 60sec course? Also, you mentioned more stress on the outside tire. I'm already running 54lbs front to prevent rollover (and yeah I need it). How much more stress?

 

- First, let me start by saying that I don't think that removing the FSB has cost me any time at all at any speed.

1. Tight, turn-around, hairpin type stuff: UNDERSTEER.

For these tight corners, I found that the suspension doesn't really matter as much as you'd think. It all comes down to weight distribution at that point. As you know, we've got a terrible weight bias, so the car just plows like it always did. I do think that the FSB removal has helped a small bit by allowing the outside front tire to grip and by keeping the inside front (the power wheel at this point thanks to our open differential) planted for good traction.


2. Slalom or transition-type corners: Glorious, glorious oversteer.

This is where the beauty of my setup shines. The car turns in like a **** without the FSB. The car just plain grips. Then, because my rear is ultra-stiff, it will swing out. Ian and I found that the absolute fastest times possible were with an EXTREMELY loose setup - but WITHOUT allowing the car to get super-sideways. The car should be loose, but you shouldn't allow it to slide all over the place - you'll just lose time like that.

To get the rear end super-loose with the same tires at all four corners, jack your rear pressures up to about 60-65psi. Or you can just run a crappier tire in the back.


3. Rollover: Your pressures will do you no good. I tried and tried and tried to prevent rollover by playing with my pressures, but it just wouldn't work. This is why McPherson suspensions suck ***. If you really want to prevent rollover, buy camber plates. I bought the Stillen ones and have just kept them at full negative.

The Stillen plates aren't really that nice. The four bolts that hold the slider-piece in place are crap - I had to replace mine with better bolts from a hardware store after Ian and I accidently broke one. Also, you can only get about 1.5-2.0 degrees of negative camber.

Adding negative camber on our car results in a toe-in effect on the front tires. Not good. I had an alignment performed with the plates at full negative - I had them put in an aggressive amount of toe-out. So far tire wear is not an issue on the street (surprisingly) or the track. Everything is wearing pretty evenly. Now I can keep my Azenis at about 44psi up front while racing. The camber plates were definitely worth it - just don't bother adjusting them every time; leave them at full negative and don't worry about 'em.


4. Is it faster now? Yes.

The body roll does NOT slow you down. On the contrary, a lot of really fast AutoX cars have tons of body roll (anyone ever seen a stock Miata flopping around?). People don't like body roll because it feels weird, but there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't make you slower or anything. Its just more annoying on a stock car with a tall suspension or in cars that don't transition well because of bad shocks.

The main thing about removing the FSB is that turn-in is crisper and faster and that THE REAR IS NOW PROPORTIONATELY STIFFER. A stiff rear translates to a more tail-happy car. As I mentioned above, looser is faster - as long as you don't waste time sliding... Although sliding is so much more fun!


- I gotta go run to class. Check in with y'all later.


Matt

 

Got my FSB off today. Butt dyno thought I felt a bit more roll but maybe not. Also got the longer wheel studs in place and the 15mm spacers are the largest I can fit. Next T&T event Sunday to see how it feels. Oh, and first pair of 225 S-02's arrived. OMG the treadwidth is like 8.75" usable

 

- Isn't the turn-in amazing? FSB removal is, by far, one of the best mods you can do to the Max.

- I'm just about to start finals week, so I still haven't had a chance to type up anything specific about the removal process and its advantages/disadvantages. Hope to do that once school lets out. Sorry for the delay.

 

My offical thought to this is that the front bar is too stiff, but I'm not liking the added body roll. I agree the car is faster but it almost feels like you have to play catch up with the steering. I found that alot of cars in the past have gone to a softer front bar for stock class. Saturns and Neons come to mind. Neons would also run a tire stagger of 225 front and 205 rear to be fast. I think the ultimate anwser is going to be a front bar just a much softer one. We can probably send matt's down to sanner and get something Half as stiff but it's going to require a few other things. The shock compression up front is going to have to decrease ever so slightly but a Large increase in Rebound is in order. It would be nice to have some DA's all the way around so we could play with it. I'm certain no sway bar is better then whats there, but I think ultimately something about half way in between is in order.