LastBoyScout

So.....

Synethetic Oil. Is it good, bad, or does it really matter at all?

Please vote and post what you feel.

Also, can a Mod make this a temp sticky, and not move from this section.

MaxedOutOfCash

I've been using synthetic and can't say anything but good things about it.

talkinghorse

iTrader: (121)

There are advocates on both sides of the fence, but if numbers mean anything to you, synthetics will generally reduce wear, lower operating temperatures, reduce emissions, and increase the life of the component. Technical data is readily available on the web sites of most oil manufacturers, including AMSOIL, Red Line, Mobil, Castrol, etc. Many of the world's top performance cars come factory equipped with synthetic oils, (BMW, Aston Martin, Corvette, Dodge Viper, etc) and every jet engine in our inventory is protected with synthetics. The moderator in the oil section of maxima.org has also put together a comprehensive spreadsheet based on finding from used oil analysis...the spreadsheet can be downloaded, or you could request one from him.

To use synthetics or not is a personal decision...you have to do what you're comfortable with. I have used synthetic for > 20 years (in every piece of equipment I have) , and wouldn't use anything else.

sweetdaddy

In addition to what talkinghorse mentioned, synthetics have better cold flow charachteristics for getting oil to engine components faster in the winter. They have much greater pressure resistance, as well as greater shear resistance/less susceptability to breakdown and they don't become as acidic due to crankcase exposure over time. Drain intervals are longer with synthetics. I've been running Amsoil in my Max's engine for the last 30k miles and trans for the last 40k. The gear oil did give the expected 5% increase in mileage, mainly due to lower viscosity. The engine oil didn't give a performance or mileage difference and I don't expect it to. I do change engine oil less often (25k), and expect to have less wear over time in my engine and trans. In a nutshell synthetic oils are more about protection and longevity,than seat of the pants performance increases.

MaxedOutOfCash

wait, did you say you change your engine oil every 25K ????

sweetdaddy

Sure enough do, that is the recommended change interval by Amsoil on their older line of synthetics. Filter change at 12.5k. They recommend drain at 35k for their newer Series 2000 oils.

I burn about 1 quart of oil every 2500 miles, so I put quite a bit of make up oil back into the mix, to refresh the additive packages they put in to preserve the oil. Amsoil actually guarantees that if there is any damage caused by using their product as directed,they will fully reimburse the cost. Nobody has taken them up on that in the last 30 yrs.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

How long does it take you to drive those 25k miles?? Don't forget the 1 year drain requirement as well. Unless you put the miles on very rapidly, you may want to make sure the oil is holding up to those drain intervals in YOUR application. Amsoil's recommendation is for a drain interval of UP TO 1 year/25k whichever comes first on the ASL and ATM line.

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

I drive at least 25k per year, maybe AMSoil should go in my engine as well as trans...

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

It's something to consider. What oil do you currently use, what drain interval and how many miles on your car? How is the mileage put on? Mostly highway, etc...?

The key thing that many people overlook is that you can't immediately just go to a long drain interval and analysis is crucial with them to at least get an idea of how your particular situation applies. Bill's spreadsheet certainly illustrates that.

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

My car is a 1995 GXE with 176,000 miles. My driving is probably 60% city and 40% highway. Right now I'm using Castrol GTX 10w30 with a ~3500 mile drain interval. I use Bosch filters. I've never done an analysis.

LastBoyScout

I guess my question would be this.......
Since they recommend changing the oil filter at every.....12k miles i think,.....do you have to drain the oil and re-use, or can you just unbolt the filter and have at it???

I have never tried to just remove the filter, and also...
links to best place/price to buy amsoil oil & tranny fluids??

The_Bomb

150k on my 1995 maxima. I have used synthetic for the last 20k. I don't burn anymore oil than a normal car. I never have to add any oil because it gets too low. BTW I change oil and filter at 5000 miles. My situation may be not normal but I feel synthetic can be used on any well cared for engine no matter mileage.

Adam

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

You can just change the filter by itself. It will take a little oil to top off the system after.

For Amsoil products, there are distributors like myself on this board who offer substantial discounts for members. Simply PM or email any one of us for specific quotes and any application questions.

Virus

iTrader: (1)

Your poll is flawed. Synthetic oil doesn't offer much in performance benefits, but rather longevity and money saving throughout the life of the vehicle.

holymoly

Synthetic oil works best for cold starts in winter, especially colder climes
like Canada and Northeast U.S. I could feel difference when oil hasn't fully reach warm temperature, the engine is smoother, definitely.

Also the benefits are sutle to your engine. As someone mentioned, less
wear and tear and longevity to your engine.

Worth the few extra bucks.

Pay me now or pay me later ...Fram

astil

iTrader: (1)

regarding sweetdaddy s oil change intervals...If the oil change interval is at 25k ,no wonder that the car is burning a quart every 2500 miles. I would say that is way too long...I change mine every 3 k ,I got 140 k and the oil and the engine is nice and clean ,even after 3000 miles. I personally prefer to change it more often ,using just regular oil (Mobil 5w30) new filter every time and that s all.I expect 300 k that way.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

Oops, just saw your post. Based on the mileage, I would just continue what you're doing. It would be hard to realize any extra benefi compared to the cost of the oil at that mileage.

I have sucessfully switched motors with that mileage over to synthetic without any issues, but there is a greater risk of leaks.

Sust

I was originally talked into synthetic in high school.
My Small Engines teacher gave us this analogy:

Imagine placing some marbles on a flat surface. Then place a flat board on top of the marbles.
Let's say that the flat surface is the cylinder, the board is the piston, and the marbles are the oil molecules. Obviously the marbles allow the board to move around on the flat surface in a smooth and relatively unhindered fashion. This is much like what oil does for lubrication of the pistons.

The difference with dino and synthetic is that the marbles representing dino oil are all different sizes. On the other hand, the marbles representing the synthetic oil are all the same size.

I'm not sure how accurate his analogy was, but I bought it. Plus, I got synthetic. IMO, synthetic really smooths out the engine where dino oil would leave me feeling some sort of engine feedback vibration through the wall where my foot was resting. Changing with dino usually helped, but it just kept on coming back after 1200 miles. Now if only I could get to the tranny for some mroe synthetic lovin.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

I like that comparison

NYC TAR

iTrader: (2)

some expert say synthetic oil will make the engine last a long time or less carbon build up etc (we all know that). But, the additives in the oil is really harmful to catalytic converter.to a piont that won't last a long time. what your though on this?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Please explain what "additives" synthetics have that regular oil does/doesn't?

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

You're kidding, right?

BOSS

Honestly - V E R Y W E L L S A I D ! ! ! You are the O N L Y person in this thread that I agree with 110%. To all those who change their oil less frequently than 5k, shame on you! Your Max hates you; you just don't know it YET! I change my motor oil every 3k miles just like ASTIL using regular oil and a new filter every single time and that's all! It has been proven over and over and over and over again that there is absolutely no difference between running synthetic oil or regular oil when the oil change intervals are at or below 5k miles. It is only when going over 5k+ miles that synthetic kicks in and MAY protect your engine more. Nonetheless guys, oil is oil...so please don't believe in this retarded outlook out there now, which has a lot of you absolutely convinced that "...oh you know it is OK to change my oil every 10K+ miles because I run synthetic"! This is cr@p! Your engine wears, period! After more than say 10k miles the wearing collage of the motor that is found in the oil is so intense and extensive that no one oil can outperform the other! Yes, I will agree that synthetic MAY be better under the circumstances described above, BUT in essence the offset between regular oil's protection and that of synthetic oil at 10K miles is completely none! Let me emphasize my point this way:

This is just to help you understand and clearly visualize what I argue - it is by no means accurate...just sort of a way I look at this entire "oil" phenomena:
(Cap letters represent the amount of harmful particles in the motor)

ASSUMPTION: say the engine can take at most 'XYZKHTXSYUI' wear into the oil (regardless of what oil is used) before the motor starts to wear above the accepted wear level. (...this will become more apparent towards the bottom so keep reading). Here we go:




harmful elements XYZK are found in the motor after 1k miles using regular oil
harmful elements XYZK are found in the motor after 2k miles using synthetic oil

harmful elements XYZKHT are found in the motor after 2k miles using regular oil
harmful elements XYZKHT are found in the motor after 2k miles using synthetic oil

harmful elements XYZKHTXS are found in the motor after 3k miles using regular oil

harmful elements XYZKHTX are found in the motor after 3k miles using synthetic oil

(...ok...lets pause here a bit: we first notice a very tiny difference in the better protection of the synthetic oil at 3k miles - note the extra 'S' particle in regular oil) Now, my theory is only good as is. It is based on say a stock Maxima with maybe a few bolt-ons here and there but nothing intense. I know all types of race cars use synthetic for obvious reasons - it won't cook as fast, etc etc. but lets face it, a stock Maxima is not an M3, Supra, Lambo, Ferrari or whatever. I also consider the fact that Maxima's redline is at around 6.5k rpm. So, yes, I know, my theory holds only for a Maxima...otherwise we are on totally different grounds and I hope you are aware of this as much as I am. Nonetheless, lets keep going...


harmful elements XYZKHTXSYUI are found in the motor after 5k miles using regular oil

harmful elements XYZKHTXSY are found in the motor after 5k miles using synthetic oil


...here's where things get interesting:

harmful elements XYZKHTXSYUIBHGU are found in the motor after 7k miles using regular oil

harmful elements XYZKHTXSYUIBHGUYTR are found in the motor after 7k miles using synthetic oil

...notice that in the two cases above (one with 5k and the one with 7k) the amount of harmful particles in the engine grows somewhat exponentially. That is, the more miles on the oil, the faster the growth of the amount of harmful particles in the oil; hence, the greater the wear on the motor REGARDLESS OF THE OIL (synthetic or regular).

...And yes, if you look above you notice that synthetic oil protected the engine just slightly, tiny bit better, but only after say the 3k-5k intervals. My point is that the little tiny bit of protection it offered up to 3 or 5k is irrelevant because as I said before, the motor's acceptable level of wear is 'XYZKHTXSYUI', and both synthetic and regular oils up until 5k miles fall in this range; hence NO NEED FOR SYNTHETIC!

Now, after 5k miles synthetic "kicks" in and starts protecting a little more than before. "Ah Ha!" - you say. "...so then synthetic is better after 5k miles" you're thinking . Technically YES, but in essence NO! Although synthetic protects slightly better, both oils (synthetic and regular) are over the acceptable motor wear limit we established in the beginning anyway!!!!! Therefore, the tiny bit more of protection that synthetic provides after 5k miles is not relevant. Think of it this way:

acceptable wear = 60
average wear up to 5k miles = 55
wear after 7k miles with regular oil = 70
wear after 7k miles with synthetic oil = 68.5

I know the numbers are exaggerated in every way, but they are just there to make a freakin point! So is $2 per quart more worth the extra tiny bit of protection that the synthetic oil "seems" to give only after about 5k miles, at which point the extra bit of protection is almost entirely irrelevant? NO! It is like me buying a stick of juicy-fruit gum (regular) for $.25 and you buying a stick of juicy-fruit gum (synthetic) for $.50 (...twice as much) only because the taste of synthetic juicy-fruit will wear out 2 minutes after the regular juicy-fruit. In addition, the regular juicy-fruit will cause your teeth to rot faster because the sugar it uses is not as efficiently distilled as the one in the synthetic juicy-fruit, which is cr@p because sugar is sugar, and one way or another your teeth will rot from it - same goes for oil!

HAHA, so maybe that's taking my analogy too far, but I think it applies to my argument in general!

Thanks for reading...HAVE A GREAT DAY.

p.s. This is how I perceive the entire oil dilemma, which is by no means accurate, but then again, intellectually conclusive!

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Boss you conclusions are unfounded and unresearched. Regardless of what contaminents are in the oil at XX miles, synthentics are superior in all areas. That includes additive packages that don't break down nearly as soon as normal oil. That includes sludge buildup that's normal for regular oil that synthetics inherently don't have. That includes superior low temperature flowing characteristics. That includes superior high temperature engine protection. That includes much higher film strength for synthetics. That includes much less enviromental impact for synthetics. That's just for starters.

BOSS

...like I said Mr. Know It All, synthetic oil in a M-A-X-I-M-A will make no difference if you flush every 3k miles and change the filter every 3k miles as well. In n/a maximas, synthetic is useless when it comes to being more high temperature resistant and all other things you have mentioned because Maxima does NOT have and never had the characteristics of a sports vehicle, where everything is twice the intensity.

Just admit it...even looking at those tests done here from the labs...omg...you need a magnifying glass or something? Can't you see that none of these tests prove that synthetic was better under the 5k mile range? And stop scratching yourself on the head...if you do flush your motor oil every 3k and still use synthetic on a n/a Maxima then it's OK, don't be ashamed to admit it Pee Wee, I won't laugh !

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

You know for those of us that drive the maxima like it's meant to be, we demand superior protection from superior oil. If you drive like a grandma and never exeed the speed limit, you're all good Boss.

What tests? Because every test that's been posted here squarely contradicts your post. Either post some proof or step off your soapbox. I have posted all of mine. Where are yours? That's right, all you have is opinion and hearsay. It's okay, millions of others have also been brainwashed by JiffyLube also. So I don't really blame you.

BOSS

You are so unintelligent...why don't u show me legitimate proof, which justifies that synthetic outperforms regular oil under the 5k mile interval! HUH! HuH! ...I'm waiting. I'm not asking for one test where synthetic came out on top, but proof that justifies the bullsh!t you've been fed by synthetic motor oil companies and what not. Me brainwashed? You're crazy. The only brainwashed person in this case is you. You pay twice as much for oil, which does nothing more or nothing special in your case (doh...you drive a maxima like I do).

BTW, I use Castrol GTX (non-syntec) oil 5W-30 and I do all maintenence by myself. I have never gone to a place like JiffyLude, YOU have on the other hand. You believe this cr@p that just because you pay $2 extra for a quart of oil, it'll do miracles for your engine. You are so far off. Although you have way more posts than I do, I consider you a big NOOB!

And wtf is with the notion that I have to prove something to you? Since both synthetic and regular motor oils are motor oils, it should be YOU proving that synthetic protection is superior compared to standard oil, rather than ME proving that it is not.

In the end, you can either prove me wrong or just sit down and play legos. From all cases of oil studies in the laboratories found in the forums here, it is NOT conclusive in any study that synthetic oil outperformed regular oil when changed under 5,000 miles or so in a vehicle like the Maxima (not M3, not a Supra - a freakin Maxima!). Now over 5k M-A-Y be a different story. But that again is irrelevant since, from what I have noticed on the forums, most Maxima owners change their motor oil anywhere in the 5k range. Hence, using synthetic oil at every 3-5k oil change is simply pointless. I leave you with this little note, which took me an entire 30 seconds to find in the lab results for oil analysis etc. in Maximas:



----------------------

----------------------



IN your face noob! My argument starts where your stops. Simply put - destoyed.

optimus310

iTrader: (1)

Well Boss even if synthetic oil doesn't do much on top of regular oil. It gives me peace of mind knowing my car is using the most expensive oil. I must be crazy because I just spent $48 bucks on gear oil, But like I say. I trust it, and will always use it, sometimes I go way over 3K miles so is good to know I will be safe using synthetic

BOSS

well put. See, now that is perfectly acceptable and I totally understand YOUR motive behind using synthetic. What you wrote makes a lot of sense and I can relate to it even if it's not in terms of motor oil.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

Boss,

I find it interesting that you forgot to include the most important comment from Briguy's analysis results. If I remember correctly, when he switched to Mobil 1 he also installed nitrous on the vehicle. Consdiring he blew the motor shortly thereafter, it's pretty hard to draw anything conclusive from those results.

I disagree with synthetic having no value for 3k oil change intervals. You still have much easier cold weather starting, not to mention the fact synthetics won't cook and sludge under high temps like a dino oil will. I do agree that it's usually a waste to drain a synthetic that early though.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Let him change is Castrol every 3k. I'll change my synthetics every 6k and still be cheaper and have better protection.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Some information AGAIN.
http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt

BOSS

What you said makes little sense. First off, it does not say in the analysis that he switched to mobil 1 tri-synthetic JUST as he put on NOS. And even if he did, then what you say and what jeff92se says is in contradiction to what just happened here. He put on NOS so, according to your previous arguments, the synthetic oil SHOULD HAVE helped him much in this case because according to you, "...[it outperforms regular oil due to]...much easier cold weather starting, not to mention the fact synthetics won't cook and sludge under high temps like a dino oil will". From the study, it is clearly seen that synthetic did nothing of that sort.


Again, please read my posts before you say something like that. You have obviously not read what I have written above, because I clearly stated MANY times that synthetic has no value for 3k oil change intervals IN N/A VEHICLES LIKE THE NISSAN MAXIMA!!!!!!!! Yes, the part in caps is crucial here. I wanted to emphasize this from the very beginning but I guess you couldn't follow. And like I said before, synthetic in super-sport vehicles like say Supra, M3, etc. MAY protect the engine more than dino oil, and most likely does because the stress that the motor is put through in these type of vehicles is twice that of a Maxima. Be advised that my entire argument revolves around two crucial elements: I only said that synthetic does nothing FOR cars like the Nissan Maxima with only BPU and WITH an at or below 5k mile oil change.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

A real synthetic oil would absolutely have produced better results in that application. The unfortunate thing is that Brian had a fuel issue that probably led to higher combustion temps and increased wear. This ultimately led to the failure of the motor. No oil could have prevented that. The comment about switching to Mobil 1 coinciding with nitrous comes from memory and having been a member here for a few years now.

I still think you're wrong about the 3k intervals as well. Though for most people it's not cost effective to run a synthetic for this interval. For people who do all short trips, especially in cold weather a synthetic can provide a crucial advantage. Even a "grocery getter" like a Maxima, like you seem to imply, but that's a whole nother argument right there. I've seen the analysis reports indicating this. I'm not just talking the spreadsheet here, but on a discussion forum regarding lubricants. Every brand, synthetic or otherwise, gets ruthlessly ripped apart when sample is presented. These include samples from all parts of the world running various equipment in all sorts of different conditions. You might want to check the forum out, it's located at http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...?ubb=forum;f=3

Then again, you might not. Mostly because you might actually learn what we're saying actually has some validity and the members there won't put up with made up arguments with insufficient data to back your position.

While it's cute that you think you're main point is spelled out with capital letters and that I missed it in the first place, you might want to consider this:

Toyota made a 3.0L V-6 that put out just under 200hp, pretty similar to the 4th gen Maxima's, so I'm assuming you would consider this a NA low stress application as well. Toyota had a sludging issue with these motors even if people changed there oil in 3k mile intervals and had receipts to prove it. There were many issues that led to the problem, but one of them was a cylinder head design that cause oil to pool in certain hot spot areas and cook. The result was sludge formation. A synthetic would have helped reduce this. I'm not alone in this opinion either. A Toyota master technician was quoted as saying so in an issue of the Automotive News as well. Considering those guys usually say otherwise, I take that as a pretty bold statement.

BOSS

That's exactly it...those are only opinions. Again, you contradict yourself...you talk about legitimate proofs and what not and here you have none regarding the Toyota and it's 3.0 V6 engine's cylinder going bad. If such was the case, why didn't Toyota themselves do the god damn test and switch to synthetic since, like you say, "[it] would have helped reduce this".

I mean, say the cylinder issue occurred in 1 out of every 6 toyotas, then using synthetic you claim would reduce this to say 1 out of every 7 toyotas - HEY, that's saving Toyota $$ right there. Obviously, such was not the case - Toyota did not say to run synthetic because it obviously did not help reduce anything, otherwise, synthetic would be recommended, if not required, by toyota in those particular motors with the defective cylinder.

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

Toyota doesn't require the use of synthetic because they have yet to really admit there is an issue with some of those engines. That might have a lot to do with the fact there are several issues that lead to sludge formation in those motors, it's not a defective cylinder as you say.

The master tech comment was opnion, but the reason I posted that link was to provide background as to why his opinion is sound. There is evidence in there that goes beyond opinion in how well a synthetic oil holds up in a Toyota sludge monster as well as information as to why some dino oils (especially poor quality ones) won't hold up to even 3k in some conditions. There is also information on lubricants in general and the engineering that goes into them that makes them different for each application. The intent was for you to discover this by yourself rather than me pick and choose certain cases to try and prove my point. It adds a little more validity to what Jeff and I have been saying if you find this on your own. Until you choose to at least educate yourself a little more in this regard, we really have nothing more to say. Quite frankly I don't have the time to continue a useless discussion if all you want to do is argue about a position that you take based soley on YOUR opinion.

BOSS

Evidence? What evidence? You provided me with cr@p so far, not evidence. Look up the word evidence in the dictionary and then we will talk buddy. Again, you talk about proofs, yet YOU have NONE. At the very least I did provide you with one proof, which were the above-posted results where synthetic DID NOT outperform dino in any way whatsoever, PERIOD. There are more like it in there too...just take a look once in a while before starting to discuss something you have relatively little knowledge about. From all the analysis done out there with synthetics, not one study conclusively states that overall, synthetic oil outperforms dino when changed under the 5k miles interval in N/A cars like the Nissan Maxima. Now deal with it and stop with that non-sense of yours...."...blah blah ... I have not given you any proof I'll just keep talking blah blah..."

This thread is officially over. I will no longer reply to your idiotic comments. Goodbye.

p.s. Next time you type non-sense ---->

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

And now for the conclusion:


No one here disputes the claim that using synthetic for less than 5k is generally a waste of money. Your use of BriGuy's analysis to back up your opinion of dino being better over synthetic for less than 5k is not an optimal example based upon his engine issues. There are better examples (although not from the same vehicle) that prove your contention better. In addition, Mobil's formula changed to SuperSyn, known for better wear and shear protection than Castrol GTX and Mobil's own old Tri-Synthetic formulation.

Intrinsically, over a couple of initial sample results, dino results at lesss than 5k can be construed as being "better" than a synthetic counterpart. However, it fails to account for long term testing, which is where synthetic will really show its strengths at minimizing wear compared to a dino. I'm happy to admit this should be, on average, a FEW parts per million in a given oil analysis between a good quality dino versus a good quality synthetic.

Synthetic's extra protection and better overall chemistry will be of different benefit to different people. So many variables factor in that it's laughable to sit here and say "x" is the best oil no matter what because I can disprove that in about 10 seconds. I'm more comfortable with synthetics because of conditions I can't forsee, such as extreme temperatures and needing to run my car extremely hard. Most of the time, that isn't the case. In addition, I am more comfortable using synthetics because I don't like changing my oil more than twice a year, making extended drain intervals a reality.

I still contend the oil FILTER is far more important than the oil chosen, given that a good quality oil is chosen in the first place. There are good filter choices for $4 to $5, yet too many people buy the Fram orange cans when that can do more harm to your engine than oil selection, ESPECIALLY now that we have good sample results from quality dino and synthetic oils showing little reason to change oil any more frequently than 5k.

Unfortunately, since you are incapable of articulating any of your opinions without slander and an argumentative tone, this thread is over. It's not that your premise is wrong, your delivery and tone mitigates the value of your opinion.