Armelius

Really tired of getting thread locked. So I am going to prove something right now. Two nissans my 87 pathfinder and 95 maxima have about 500,000 miles between them.

Cost of synthetic oil at every 3,000 miles is about 35 dollars? Regular oil is about 7? A difference of 28 dollars. Let's say I have 300,000 miles on each car. 1,000 oil changes on each car. 700 vs 3,500 dollars on each car. Difference of 2,800 dollars. For me times two is 5,600 dollars.

Somehow I think I can buy another maxima or pathfinder for that price or get another engine and have it installed. Meanwhile the guy with the synthetic oiled engine is going to do what? Spend more money.

I heard snake oil was good for ford mustangs too, but that doesnt mean I am going to buy it.

AuAltima3.5

...

Synthetic Oil requires less maintenance (ie you don not have to change it as much), as long a 10k miles in some cases.

Armelius

I wouldn't keep any oil in a car over 4,000 miles. These engines are very resillent putting in synthetic isn't going to make much difference except for the weight of your wallet.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

This is why your thread keep getting closed. What you feel is good for you may not be good for someone else. Plus, you're misinforming people.


I use synthetic because I put a ton of miles on my car. The intervals are every 10,000 miles. The tests don't lie. Bill has Blackstone Labs info listed here on the site. Why not read the reviews so you can learn the truth?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

That might be your opinion but that doesn't make it right. Again, you have no understanding of synthetics.

Got any specific proof except for some outdated Chilton's manual? Again no proof.

Read the stickies in the this section and educate yourself. Then come back with a decent argument.

2002 Maxima SE

iTrader: (3)

Your thread is proof? How about open up your valve covers and take a picture.

2002 Maxima SE

iTrader: (3)

Are you sure about that? This is a UOA...read the part about going 6000 miles.

Torkaholic

I'm not where I can post the actual report at the moment, but on Friday, I got the latest lab report on my wife's Sequoia. It has 4,500 miles and six months on the present German Castrol 0w-30. It's TBN (Total Base Number, or acid neutralizing capacity) was 6.0 (less than half used up) and the wear metals are miniscule. This is objective data showing that this oil will be good for a whole year (I will test again in three months to be sure it's not crashing). I'll post the report later this evening so you can see for yourself.

Where is your objective data to support your 4k mile limitation?

Armelius

The proof is in my wallet bro. You can have a piece of mind for 10,000 miles on snake oil but in the end if you change your oil every 3,000 miles you will have a better and perhaps even cleaner engine.

You can bring all the charts and german engineering but in the end if you change your oil every 3,000 miles you will be saving money overall compared to synthetic.

I am getting 27.9 average gas mileage. For highway it's about 31 or better mpg.

This thread is about money saved with regular oil over cost of synthetics.

Your chart says "We think.." not we recommend. That's great you had it checked at just over 4,000 miles.

I don't have a new engine though you have definately more horsepower but I have better gas mileage.

The other thread that was locked had a guy who knew something about oil from Pennsylvania. That guy probably likes synthetic oil too. But somehow I believe he would agree with me that it's better to change your oil on a regular basis and frequently than to keep the same stuff in there even if it is synthetic. That is what I am talking about.

The money I save I could do an engine rebuild or whatever.

Think about it.

2002 Maxima SE

iTrader: (3)

If it's money you want to argue, I change my oil every 5000 miles (the 4200 mile change above was before a long trip). So actually, I spend less money than you do.

Most automakers say that 3000 mile oil changes are overkill. Many go with a 7500 mile change on dino oil but I think 7500 is a bit much. We own a 93 Sable that gets 5k changes on dino oil with no problems.

Not sure about german engineering in a japanese cars, but the charts do prove how long one can go on an oil change. I trust the guys at blackstone more than someone who beleives the Jiffy Lube commercials (3000 miles or else!!!). I'll eventually try a 6000 mile oil change and send my sample in (many here have done far more miles than that). What the chart shows is how long the oil can keep doing it's job before braking down (you did read it, right?). Many postings on here about the "real world" reliability and longevity of oil and they all point to the reliability and longevity of > 3000 mile oil changes.

Got pics of those valve covers yet?

Torkaholic

So we're clear then: you have no objective evidence to back up the performance of the oil you choose to use.

Respectfully, you need to think some more about this, not me. If I only need to buy oil approximately 1/3 to 1/4 as often as you do, it's you, not me, who's spending more money on oil. Therefore, you assertion that, "You can bring all the charts and german engineering but in the end if you change your oil every 3,000 miles you will be saving money overall compared to synthetic", is simply incorrect.

I don't need to wonder whether "perhaps" I might have a cleaner engine. I have lab data that shows that both of mine are clean. Very clean. I do, in fact, change my oil on a regular basis. It's just that I'm not emotionally bought into the ancient 3/3 oil change myth. I change it when it really needs to be changed, and I know when that is based not upon an oil company's marketing hype, but insead, on objective lab data about my own cars as they are used in the real world.

Maybe you should try a used oil analysis yourself (in useful basic form, it's only about $25). Then you could tell us about how your oil is actually performing. Actually, dinos usually don't do too badly, as long as you don't push them too far. They do, however, tend to leave varnish behind after consistent use, even on short OCIs.

It's going to take a lot more than the mpg you're getting, and your personal preferences, to prove the point you're defending.

Armelius

What are my valve covers going to prove? That I am getting the right gas mileage? That it's time for a valve job?

I have no doubt that dino-weed oil will go 4,000 and maybe more.

Let me just ask everyone this: Who here has a nissan with factory synthetic oil when they bought their cars new?

Nissan has been building cars and engines for a long time. Japanese knew or know a lot about synthetic oil especially during wwII and now. So, why isn't Nissan and the dealerships pushing for synthetic oil? More profit in it.

Armelius

Just want to add that the Pathfinder manual says change regular oil every 7,500 miles or every six months. And change the oil filter every second oil change so 15,000 miles or once a year. And that's a Nissan service manual printed in 1986 for the 1987 Pathfinder.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

It's a fact of life that behavior is strongly influenced by what people believe, whether true or not. Numerous examples from history bear this out. For example, sailors were once fearful of sailing outside the sight of land less they would fall off the edge of the world. In the early 19th century, the train was considered dangerous because it was believed that if you traveled faster than 25 miles per hour, you would be traveling too fast to breathe. At a later date, the New York Times warned that electric light may cause blindness. Microwave ovens, automobiles and airplanes have had equally vociferous opponents.

Looking back, it is easy to laugh at some of these things people so firmly believed. But these people were not stupid. They were simply misinformed. In many instances they had simply drawn conclusions before all the facts were in. How easy it is to make the same mistake today. In our own time, synthetic motor oils have been the object of many misconceptions held by the general public. Many people, including some mechanics who ought to know better, have been misled by persistent myths that need to be addressed.

Synthetic lubricants are fuel efficient, extended life lubricants manufactured from select basestocks and special purpose additives. In contrast to petroleum oils which are pumped from the earth and refined, synthetics are custom-designed in the laboratory, with each phase of their molecular construction programmed to produce, in effect, the ideal lubricant.

In responding to objections most commonly raised against synthetics it is important to establish the parameters of the debate. When speaking of synthetic motor oils, this article is defending the synthetic lubricants which have been formulated to meet the performance standards set by the American Petroleum Institute (API). (The first such synthetic motor oil to meet these industry-accepted tests for defining engine oil properties and performance characteristics was AMSOIL 100% Synthetic 10W-40 in 1972.)

Many people with questions about synthetics haven't known where to turn to get correct information. Is it super oil or snake oil? Some enthusiasts will swear that synthetics are capable of raising your specialty car from the dead. On the other hand, the next fellow asserts that synthetics will send your beloved car to an early grave. Where's the truth in all this?

In an effort to set the record straight, we've assembled ten of the more persistent myths about synthetic motor oils to see how they stack up against the facts.

Myth #1: Synthetic motor oils damage seals.

Untrue. It would be foolhardy for lubricant manufacturers to build a product that is incompatible with seals. The composition of seals presents problems that both petroleum oils and synthetics must overcome. Made from elastomers, seals are inherently difficult to standardize.

Ultimately it is the additive mix in the oil that counts. Additives to control seal swell, shrinkage and hardening are required, whether it be a synthetic or petroleum product that is being produced.

Myth #2: Synthetics are too thin to stay in the engine.

Untrue. In order for a lubricant to be classified in any SAE grade (10W-30, 10W-40, etc) it has to meet certain guidelines with regard to viscosity ("thickness").

For example, it makes no difference whether it is 10W-40 petroleum or 10W-40 synthetic, at -25 degrees centigrade (-13F) and 100 degrees centigrade (212 degrees F) that oil has to maintain a standardized viscosity or it can't be rated a 10W-40.

Myth #3: Synthetics cause cars to use more oil.

Untrue. Synthetic motor oils are intended to use in mechanically sound engines, that is, engines that don't leak. In such engines oil consumption will actually be reduced. First, because of the lower volatility of synlubes. Second, because of the better sealing characteristics between piston rings and cylinder walls. And finally, because of the superior oxidation stability (i.e. resistance of synthetics against reacting with oxygen at high temperatures.)

Myth #4: Synthetic lubricants are not compatible with petroleum.

Untrue. The synthesized hydrocarbons, polyalphaolefins, diesters and other materials that form the base stocks of high quality name brand synthetics are fully compatible with petroleum oils. In the old days, some companies used untested ingredients that were not compatible, causing quality synlubes to suffer a bum rap. Fortunately, those days are long gone.

Compatibility is something to keep in mind, however, whether using petroleum oils or synthetics. It is usually best to use the same oil for topping off that you have been running in the engine. That is, it is preferable to not mix your oils, even if it is Valvoline or Quaker State you are using. The reason is this: the functions of additives blended for specific characteristics can be offset when oils with different additive packages are put together. For optimal performance, it is better to use the same oil throughout.

Myth#5: Synthetic lubricants are not readily available.

Untrue. This may have been the case two decades ago when AMSOIL and Mobil1 were the only real choices, but today nearly every major oil company has added a synthetic product to their lines. This in itself is a testament to the value synthetics offer. But, beware, many of the other "syntheitcs" are not true PAO (Polyalphaolefin) syntheitcs (ie: Castrol Syntec, Penzoil, etc...) they are hydroisomerized petroleum oil or an ester based synthetic blend.

Myth #6: Synthetic lubricants produce sludge

Untrue. In point of fact, synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum basestocks begin to react with each other, forming sludges, gums and varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy.

Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development.

Two other causes of sludge - ingested dirt and water dilution - can be a problem in any kind of oil, whether petroleum or synthetic. These are problems with the air filtration system and the cooling system resoectively, not the oil.

Myth #7: Synthetics can't be used with catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.

Untrue. There is no difference between synthetic and petroleum oils in regards to these components. Both synthetic and petroleum oils are similar compounds and neither is damaging to catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.

Myth #8: Synthetics void warranties.

Untrue. No major manufacturer of automobiles specifically bans the use of synthetic lubricants. In point of fact, increasing numbers of high performance cars are arriving on the showroom floors with synthetic motor oils as factory fill.

New vehicle warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications (for example SG/CE). Synthetic lubricants which meet current API Service requirements are perfectly suited for use in any vehicle without affecting the validity of the new car warranty. In point of fact, in the over 25 years that AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants have been used in extended service situations, over billions of miles of actual driving, these oils have not been faulted once for voiding an automaker's warranty.

Myth #9: Synthetics last forever.

Untrue. Although some experts feel that synthetic basestocks themselves can be used forever, it is well known that eventually the additives will falter and cause the oil to require changing. Moisture, fuel dilution and acids (the by-products of combustion) tend to use up additives in an oil, allowing degradation to occur.

However , by "topping off", additives can be replenished. Through good filtration and periodic oil analysis, synthetic motor oils protect an engine for lengths of time far beyond the capability of non-synthetics.

Myth #10: Synthetics are too expensive.

Untrue. Tests and experience have proven that synthetics can greatly extend drain intervals, provide better fuel economy, reduce engine wear and enable vehicles to operate with greater reliability. All these elements combine to make synthetic engine oils more economical that conventional non-synthetics.

In Europe, synthetics have enjoyed increasing acceptance as car buyers look first to performance and long term value rather than initial price. As more sophisticated technology places greater demands on today's motor oils, we will no doubt see an increasing re-evaluation of oil buying habits in this country as well.

CONCLUSIONS

Since their inception, manufacturers of synthetic motor oils have sought to educate the public about the facts regarding synthetics, and the need for consumers to make their lubrication purchasing decisions based on quality rather than price. As was the case with microwave ovens or electric lights, a highly technological improvement must often overcome a fair amount of public skepticism and consumer inertia before it is embraced by the general population.

But the word is getting out as a growing number of motorists worldwide experience the benefits of synthetic lubrication. The wave of the future, in auto lubes, is well under way.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Hmm "snake oil" huh?

"Those naysayers who only a decade or so ago prematurely dismissed synthetics as, "snake oil", are now among the staunchest devotees of laboratory-manufactured lubricants. Among these believers are top lubrication engineers, race car drivers, vehicle fleet operators, and millions of private motorists around the world. What factors have contributed to the growing enthusiasm for synthetic lubricants? Simply put, synthetically-produced lubricants have demonstrated beyond doubt that they are far superior to their conventional petroleum counterparts in fulfilling the many and varied tasks demanded of oil by today's modern engines and powertrains. Indeed, synthetic lubricant technology is swiftly progressing to a point where it is possible that engine wear may no longer continue to be the major limiting factor in the expected life span of motor vehicles."

"The first question demanding an answer is: Just what is synthetic oil? Technically speaking, synthetic lubricants are made by chemically combining, in a laboratory, lower-molecular-weight materials to produce a finished product with planned and predictable properties. Don't be confused by this technical double-talk. What this means is that synthetics are custom-designed products in which each phase of their molecular construction is programmed to produce what may be called "the ideal lubricant." This process departs significantly from that of petroleum lubricants, whose physical components, both desirable and undesirable, are inherited from the crude oil from which they are refined.

Crude oil possesses thousands of varieties of contaminants, depending upon the oil's geographical and geological origins, which no amount of refining can entirely remove. Corrosive acids, paraffins and other waxes, heavy metals, asphalt, napthenes and benzenes, as well as countless compounds of sulfur, chlorine, and nitrogen, remain in the finished product.

Equally as important, petroleum oil molecules, as contrasted to uniform-sized synthetic oil molecules, vary significantly in size, shape and length. When your engine heats up, the smaller molecules evaporate, while the larger ones tend to oxidize and become engine deposits. As a result, refined petroleum lubricating products differ widely in their overall quality and performance. The presence of and the resulting drawbacks of these undesirable constituent elements lie at the very root of the considerable performance differences between synthetic and petroleum based motor oils."

"Chief among the areas in which the pre-planned and predictable properties inherent in premium synthetic lubricants significantly surpass those of premium petroleum oils are: low-temperature fluidity...and thus improved ambient startup protection; low volatility, (higher boiling point...greater resistance to evaporation); high-temperature thermal stability; oxidation resistance; lubricity; fuel economy; film strength and wear protection; extended drain capabilities; water stability; and high natural detergent characteristics, (resulting in a cleaner engine with less additive content)."

"For the purposes of comparison, we have taken a well-known synthetic engine oil, Amsoil 10W-40 synthetic, and contrasted its characteristics with those of several prominent 10W-40 conventional motor oils. Below is a condensed summary of the results of several closely-monitored field and laboratory tests:

Amsoil 10W-40
100% synthetic Petroleum
Dino 10W-40

1. Effective lubrication range -60 F to +400 F 0 F to 300 F
2. Viscosity increase after single sequence, (64hour), Olds III-D Test 9%
102 to 400%
3. Wear, (mg. weight loss Falex test) 1.1 mg. 3 to 6mg.
4. Fluidity @ - 40 F Flows freely Solid
5. Volatility, (evaporation @ 300 F for 22 hours) 1% 28%
6. Crankcase Temperature (Track test) 240 F 290 F
7. Flash Point (D92 Test) 470 F 400 F
8. Oil consumption, (50,000 mile test) 42% less than
petroleum
9. Intake valve deposits, grams measured at 50,000 miles. 32.1 75.5

Aren't facts a biatch???


"From this data it is readily apparent that synthetic lubricants have substantially broadened the horizons of engine lubricant protection. Simply by comparing the lubrication-temperature range comparison, the limits of petroleum lubricants become evident. On both ends of the relavent temperature spectrum, synthetics demonstrate conclusively the ability to significantly extend the thermal regions in which the engine is protected. This has a special significance for those automotive power-plants which normally work harder and produce higher internal and lubricant temperatures...that is to say: high-performance engines, smaller high-RPM engines, air cooled engines, diesels and rotaries. Furthermore, climactic conditions in which synthetics allow operation with full engine protection are for all practical purposes boundless, whereas with a petroleum oil the protective capacity significantly diminishes with temperature extremes. Note particularly the comparative viscosity, (oil thickening), increases after the 64-hour Olds III-D test, (Item 2)... 9% for the Amsoil synthetic VS 102-400% for the multigrade petroleum oils; the reduced wear, (Item 3), and the reduction in crankcase temperatures, (Item 6). These favorable results are quite typical of virtually all similar test comparisons between petroleum - and synthetic-based motor oils."

"Underhood temperatures also take a quantum leap with the use of power options, especially air conditioning, and because of emissions devices and emissions-related design. It is important to note that, even though the dash gauge may register only a 200 deg. F or so water/coolant temperature, the temperature of the sump and of all the assorted bearing surfaces significantly exceed the water temperature, and often surpass 500 deg. F on the piston ring and cylinder wall areas. These high-temperature surfaces serve to rapidly decompose petroleum oil and additives, as well as contribute to their shorter service life, while the synthetic is largely unaffected. Beyond the protection afforded an engine during these particular instances of high-operating temperatures, high-temp thermal stability moreover permits an engine oil to deliver overall extended service life, (significantly longer drain intervals), in all driving conditions, because it prevents the phenomenon of sludge and carbon formations on critical engine parts, (valves, valve guides, oil channels, lifter assemblies, piston rings, etc.), due to oil thickening, a problem commonly attributable to petroleum oil breakdown at high temperatures. As these deposits accumulate in the oil circulatory system, oil flow drops, thus accelerating engine wear. To the user of synthetics, the benefits are, (1) reduced wear of critical engine components; (2) significantly reduced sludge and varnish...a cleaner engine; (3) reduced engine drag due to uniform viscosity; and, (4) increased fuel economy due to reduced component wear."

"Film strength", refers to the amount of pressure required to force out a film of oil from between two pieces of flat metal. The higher the film strength, the more protection is provided to such parts as piston rings, timing chain, cams, lifters, and rocker arms...wherever the lubricant is not under oil system pressure. Synthetics routinely exhibit a nominal film strength of well over 3,000 psi, while petroleum oils average somewhat less than 500 psi. The result is more lubricant protection between moving parts with synthetics."

"Viscosity is a crucial consideration when improvements in fuel economy are desired. It stands to reason that the freer an engine turns, the less fuel it will require to accomplish a given amount of work. Studies have demonstrated conclusively that engine drag is directly related to the viscosity of the motor oil. Generally speaking, the lower the viscosity, the better the fuel economy of the engine. In formulating lower viscosity oils, it has become clear that the synthetics are the base stock of choice. This is because it is possible to produce a synthetic oil of a given low viscosity without incurring the excessive oil consumption, (due to evaporation), and resultant thickening of the same low-viscosity petroleum oil. Indeed, the U.S. Department of Energy in its pamphlet entitled, "An Assessment Of The Effects Of Engine Lube Oils On Fuel Economy", states: "It is evident that low-viscosity oils will help minimize engine friction losses in the prevalent hydrodynamic region and thereby achieve better fuel economy. In addition, such oils help to reduce friction during ambient, (cold), start by increasing the oil flow rate to critical engine parts. However, low-viscosity engine oils, blended from conventional petroleum base stocks, may have problems with high oil consumption and engine wear. There is also the possibility of decreased catalytic-converter life and efficiency due to the increased levels of phosphorus in the exhaust gas from the oil additives. One solution is to mix some synthetic with the mineral, (petroleum), oil, or use a synthetic base stock entirely...(end of quote). This low-viscosity, low volatility character of synthetics has become increasingly important because many automobile manufacturers are now recommending lighter-weight, (chiefly 5W-30), oils for use in their products, and because the trend toward smaller engines creates substantially more heat and stress on the oil used. In these smaller, high-output powerplants, enough heat is generated to cause a lighter petroleum lubricant to evaporate and significantly increase viscosity within weeks of its introduction into the crankcase. High-temperature stability, as well as oxidation-resistance, is of absolutely paramount importance when it comes to turbocharged engines. Because it must both lubricate and cool the turbo unit, the oil MUST be specifically formulated to withstand the turbo's extremely high operating temperatures. Oil film temperatures often exceed 450 deg. F in the turbo unit during operation, and can surpass 650 deg. F, (!!!), during a short period immediately following engine shutdown...both figures far exceeding the thermal limits of petroleum oil. Synthetics, with their capacity to maintain proper, (low), viscosity and lubricity under these high heat and stress conditions, and with their natural resistance to oxidation, have risen to the fore. It is also important to note that the high-temperature-stability properties of synthetics are designed primarily into the base-stock oil itself, rather than being achieved primarily with additives. The advantage of this approach is twofold:, (1) Additives, which may account for as much as 24% of the volume of a can of petroleum oil, by themselves have little or no lubricating properties per se. Thus the more the additive content in an oil, the less lubrication is available to the engine; and, (2) Most additives tend to volatize, (evaporate), and deteriorate with heat, age and use, so that the overall effectiveness of the lubricant itslef is significanlty diminshed within only a few thousand miles of driving.

It is also important to note that, contrary to what many take for granted, higher viscosity in and of itself does not translate into better engine protection. Extensive testing has shown the opposite to be in fact true. As long as a lower-viscosity oil is formulated to resist evaporation and provide high film strength, this lighter oil will actually deliver more complete protection to the engine parts, since its more rapid circulation delivers both better lubrication per se, and far better cooling characteristics...a critical advantage, given that oil flow furnishes up to 30% of an engines cooling requirements. Prior to the introduction of synthetics, however, the problem of evaporation, (and the resultant thickening of the remaining oil), was addressed primarily by increasing viscosity. In short, don't be concerned with the relatively lower viscosity ratings of some synthetics. Syn lubes are a whole new ball game.

The remarkable ability of synthetic oils to reduce internal operating temperatures is far too important to ignore, since high operating temperatures contribute directly to premature failure of mechanical components and gaskets and seals. Coolant, (i.e. water/antifreeze), cools only the upper regions of an engine. The task of cooling the crankshaft, main and connecting rod bearings, the timing gear and chain, the camshaft and its bearings must be borne entirely by the oil. There are three identifiable reasons why synthetics do a better job of cooling an engine: (1) Because of both the oil's lubricity, (slipperiness), and its stable viscosity, less friction - and thus less heat - is generated in the first place; (2) The molecular structure of the oil itself is designed to more efficiently transfer heat, even compared against the thermal conductivity properties, (ability to absorb and dissipate heat), of an identical viscosity petroleum oil; and, (3) As mentioned in the preceeding paragraph, the more rapid oil flow of these lower-viscosity synthetics contributes significantly to the efficient transfer and dissipation of heat. Because of all these factors, oil temperature decreases of from 20 deg. F to 50 deg. F are quite common with the use of synthetic oil. One might even say that the heat-reduction properties of synthetics are synergistic...by helping to reduce its own temperature, the synthetic oil is simultaneously enhancing the lubricant's overall performance characteristics."

"In the same Popular Science article on synthetic oils, veteran race car driver Smokey Yunick was quoted: "When you disassemble an engine that's been run on petroleum oil, if you examine the rings and cylinder bores with a glass you'll see ridges and scratches - that's the wear going on. With a polyol, (a variety of synthetic), when you take the engine apart everything has the appearance of being crome-plated. In the eninge we ran at Indianapolis this year we used a polyol synthetic. When we tore the engine down, you could still see the original honing marks on the bearings...no wear at all. We put the same bearings back in because the crankshaft never touched the bearings. I've never seen that before."

"Another example of the capacity of synthetic oil to deliver exceptional engine protection and performance is a recently-completed demonstration involving the Amsoil Corporation of Superior, Wisconsin, a major manufacturer of a wide range of premium synthetic oils, automatic transmission fluids, chassis lubricants, and related products. This demonstration involved the use of its 100% synthetic engine oils in a New York City taxi fleet. The test, sponsored and supervised by a major lubricant additive manufacturer, compared the overall performance of Amsoil's 10W-40 synthetic oil with a number of leading petroleum motor oils. The demonstration was scheduled to encompass 60,000 miles of New York taxi service on each car. With the high levels of idling time typically encountered in such service, the total number of, "engine miles", of each car was estimated to be about double the miles registered on its odometer.

Initially the demonstration was to have required that each taxi, equipped with a Chevrolet 229 CID V-6 engine, have its oil and filter changed every 3,000 miles. But Amsoil insisted that an alteration of the test procedure be instituted. The company's intent was to push its synthetic oil to the extreme and evaluate how it compared to the petroleum oils drained at the originally specified, 3,000 mile intervals. The twelve Amsoil-lubricated vehicles were thus divided into three goups of four taxis each. Group 1, (Amsoil), would double the control interval, with oil and filter drain at 6,000 miles; Group 2, (Amsoil), would quadruple the control interval, with oil and filter drain at 12,000 miles; and group 3, (Amsoil), would not change the oil for the duration of the test ; thus multiplying the, (petroleum), Control Group's drain-control interval by twenty times. In place of changing the oil, these, (Group 3), cars would be equipped with Amsoil's By-Pass oil filter, claimed by the company to keep, (synthetic), oil analytically clean for up to 25,000 miles of driving, without replacing the element. The by-pass filter element was changed at 12,500 mile intervals for the duration of the test.

Following the year-long demonstration, each of the engines was disassembled, both to determine the levels of sludge, varnish and rust that had accumulated inside the engine, and to carefully measure the amounts of wear experienced on critical engine components. Pictured on the previous page are representative samples of various components of the test engines. In the first example, the pistons and intake valves of the petroleum Control Group, (oil and filter changes every 3,000 miles), are illustrated. The lower set of photos represent the same engine components from an Amsoil Group 3 vehicle. Note the substantially reduced varnish and sludge deposits on the synthetic-oil lubricated components, and the remarkably good overall condition of the Amsoil group 3 pistons and valves.

To summarize the findings and conclusions, the test facility responsible for the demonstration submitted this statement: "The data presented in this report indicates that the Amsoil synthetic SAE 10W-40 passenger-car motor oil formulation...provided protection of the test engines from excessive wear and deposit formation, far beyond the normal 3,000-mile oil change interval." In fact, the level of protection was such that those engines in which the original synthetic oil was run for the entire duration of the, (60,000 mile), test showed less wear than did the Control Group vehicles using premium petroleum oil and 3,000 mile drain intervals."

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

2nd part:

"Renowned race-car driver Bobby Unser stated in an article in, "The Family Handyman", magazine: "I've had tremendous success with synthetics; both grease and oil, in all my cars. In several instances where we have compared petroleum-lubricated engines with those which used synthetics, the latter were cleaner, with less carbon and sludge. And the engines produced more horsepower, which meant better mileage and longer life."

"But", you say, "if synthetics are so good, why aren't even more motorists using them?" First and foremost, many folks simply aren't aware of synthetics. Others who are aware are deterred by the higher purchase cost, without investigating the advantages. Even many professional mechanics haven't kept abreast of the advances that have occurred in the field of synthetic lubricants, and frequently tend to dismiss them without bothering to check the wealth of current literature and impressive test results regarding them. Secondly, garages and dealerships often hesitate to recommend any extended-drain lubricant, perhaps because their livelihood is to a large degree dependent upon frequent servicing and repairs. We learned of one, (probably common occurring), instance where a dealership mechanic told a customer: "You can't use synthetic oil in your car...the eninge wasn't designed for it!" Still another reason is that many of the advantages and cost savings provided by synthetic lubricants are difficult to quantify, and thus difficult for many consumers to appreciate. For instance, how does one place a precise value upon such benefits as..."cleaner engine; lower operating temperatures; fewer oil and filter changes; less oil consumption; lowered octane requirements; longer battery/starter/alternator/spark plug/turbo unit/PCV component life; increased fuel mileage; the convenience of exceptional four-season performance with a single motor oil...and so on." On the other hand, it is quite simple to compare the purchase costs of conventional vs synthetic, and to ignore the real cost-and performance comparisons in actual operation. Do you prefer to save $12 or $15 per oil change by using a petroleum oil, even knowing that it should be changed six or seven times as frequently as a premium synthetic? Or are you more interested in the bigger picture, irrespective of the fact that many of the very real benefits of synthetics cannot be precisely quantified in terms of dollars and cents? All available evidence indicates that synthetic engine oils offer performance advantages not achievable with any refined-petroleum product.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Armelius: What your stating is purely opinion without fact. Before I started changing my own oil, I used to spends $35 per oil change every 3000 miles. Now I do it myself and spend about the same amount $32 dollars for Mobil 1 Supersyn and a Mobil 1 filter (My intervals are 10000 miles now). How is using synthetic in my case a waste of money?

I spent more money changing my oil every 3000 miles with inferior oil. Now I go longer with better oil. It's not hard to do the math on this one.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Thought I would add this from a site about synthetic oils...

Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it.
Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil. Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil.

Armelius

LOL.

I am not stating opinion when I say that synthetic oil is a waste of money.

You are the first person who put a price on syn oil besides myself. I figured it was about 35 bucks per oil change. Where I might spend 7 dollars.

I did the whole time thing and mileage thing. Proving there is a savings with regular oil.

I don't know what is the difference between myself and a racecar driver only that he takes endorcements from oil companies and I don't. And he probably makes more than me but I am sure my car probably gets better gas mileage than anything he owns and he probably doesn't own a 4 cylinder.

I would even say that synthetic oil is superior but cost prohibitive that is the essence of this thread. And that if you change your oil on a regular basis compared to long term with synthetics you are probably safer in case there is engine damage or wearing.

Again. Who here has synthetic oil straight from Nissan when they bought their car new? And why don't the dealerships push synthetic oil?

You are paying over 20 grand for one of these cars new, how come they don't put 35 dollars worth of synthetic oil in it?

I read the long post and disagree that synthetic oil is inexpensive in the long run.

Is there a dealership that is selling synthetic oil changes other than Nissan?

I am glad I can have this discussion here because I don't think a newspaper or other media outlet that accepts advertisements would even consider allowing someone to say that synthetics are too expensive.

Let's just say I get an engine rebuild at 300,000 miles and the guy running the synthetic oil in his engine doesn't, who will have the better engine in the end if we spend the same amount of money?

2002 Maxima SE

iTrader: (3)

5 quarts of Quaker state is about $12
Oil filter is another $5

$7 oil change =

So thats $17 per oil change or $34 for 6000 miles. I buy Mobil 1 in a 5 quart jug for $16 when Wally-World has their sale plus a deal on filters from my Nissan dealer to buy 4 get the 5th free...comes out to about $3 per filter.

So for me to go 6000 miles is $19...for you its $34. In kindergarten, I was taught $34 was more than $19.

He said $32 for 10,000 miles. You spend $51 for 9000 miles. So again, there is quite a savings in synthetics.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

It is opinion. Your the only one that believes your correct.

There was no savings in my case using regular oil so don't think you've won the debate yet.

.............and uses the oil in his/her race car. Come on man, you're talking too fast and not thinking.

Show some evidence then.

Ok.

Wrong. I've already posted data from a site that tests syn oils that proves you wrong on that statement.

I don't know but they should push synthetics so people can start to save money. 3000 mile oil changes are the biggest scam in automotive history.

You could find this out if you would actually take some time and read. The Corvette is one of MANY cars that come standard with synthetic oil (Mobil 1).

Just remember, your opinion doesn't make you right.

Chevrolet, BMW, etc.

Synthetic isn't too expensive for me.

The guy with the synthetic. The motor will have been well broken in by then and more efficient than your newly rebuilt motor.

Torkaholic

Awwww c'mon, now you're just dodging the issue. The valve covers will very plainly show your clean or dirty your engine is. One thing I really like about my VQ35 compared to the Toyota V-6 I had before is that you can very clealy see down into the head area through the oil filler opening. I'd say I can see about three inches worth of the top of the head and about the same length of the exhaust cam on the driver's side of the engine (the G35's VQ, of course, runs North-South, not East-West). Mine's spotless, BTW, as is our Sequoia's 2UZ V-8.

Profit for dealers is generated by selling dirt cheap bulk dino, well marked up, to unknowing consumers who keep coming in at ultra-short 3/3 intervals.

Still waiting for you to supply us with some data to support your assertions. . . I'm thinking we're going to be waiting for quite some time.

Torkaholic

I spend about $24 for syn oil that performs well for 10k miles. I spend LESS than you 3/3 or 4/4 guys do for your oil. LESS. Get it??? Armeilus, please stop blindly telling me I'm spending more than you short-change dino guys. I'm not.

Armelius

Dodging the issue. Nissan doesn't put synthetic oil in their cars.

Oil changes at dealerships is one of those loss leaders. They have the worse profit margin in the oil change business. The nissan dealership I worked at charged 15 dollars an oil change and a lot times they just gave them away.

Corvette? That's related to the chevette?

I am using about 1.33 for a quart of oil the filter I use is slightly more than a dollar on sale. You got 19 dolllars on oil and filter, great.

Nissan book says you can go 7,500 miles per oil change and 15,000 miles for filter. You go how long for an oil change?

Just point to some nissan literature that recommends synthetic oil over regular oil.

Do the math on how many oil changes you do with synthetic up to 300,000 miles. You really change your oil every 10,000 miles?

That race car driver is not using anything stock except maybe a ball bearing. He probably has a new engine every race or nearly a head job after every race. He is doing how many rpms compared to a propeller aircraft? There are too many variables with a race car and our car. I am talking long term 300,000 miles. Not redline 300,000 times in a two hour period on a non stock engine.

To me it's like rust protection. Of course everyone likes it. It sounds good and you have a feeling it works but if there is a design defect and you run around in salt no amount of rust protection is going to work for you even if you paid an extra 1,200 from the dealer. After 60,000 miles you might find rust and you might not either way.

There is a saturation point where the extra protection, super slippery, or cleaner oil isn't going to matter. Something happens in your engine or your filter has a defect you will want to change your oil more often than not.

If I had lower mileage I would definately let it go longer without changing the oil but once you get in my range you want to change it more often because things can go wrong after the engine is broken in. And it doesn't make sense with my high miles to go to synthetics.

That's my point. They are not assertions or guesses. It's common sense.

What evidence you want? I am still getting great mileage and power from my high mileage engines. My pathfinder has a bad ticking noise during start up but that is due to a known defect with the exhaust manifold bolts.

I might have dirty heads I don't know but I do know these engines are near bulletproof and the best V6's built.

Why would anyone go synthetic when it isn't going to matter except with the pocket book?

Torkaholic

Yes, that's dodging the issue. You've claimed that syns aren't worth the money. What Nissan uses as the factory is much more likely related to what it cost them to buy drums of oil for the factory. Not hard to figure where that calculation leads. . .

=======================================

OK, then be fair. When Chevy made the Chevette, Datsun (n/k/a Nissan) was making the B210. For years, those two were running neck and neck in the "most pukeworthy car" contest.

Yes, the MODERN Corvette comes from the factory with Mobil-1 installed.

===============================================

Yes, 10k miles is my baseline in my G35. One year for my wife's Sequoia (which will see about 9k miles in that time).

Syn won't matter? I owned an 88 Civic for about 10 years and over 150k miles and it got M1 from break-in forward. The head/cam area was as clean the day I sold it as the day it rolled out of the plant -- silvery bare metal. The bottom end was the same at around 7-8 years, when I had to replace the oil pan after, of all things, I accidentally stripped the threads on the drain opening. None of that nice golden coating of varnish you see in dino-fed engines of the same vintage.

Again, I do want you to offer evidence for what you say. What you call "common sense" is just a plea for others to accept your opinion without any evidentiary support. I mean this kind of evidence (this is the mid-term used oil analysis report on my wife's Sequoia):

deezo

iTrader: (3)

You are dodging the issue. This thread isn't about whether Nissan puts synthetic oil in their cars, it's about how much money you save by using either or. Don't change the subject.

.....and what the fark does that mean?

Why? No one here cares about whether Nissan recommends something to us Nissan owners. The point of this site is to recommend better ways to care for our automobiles.

This is the reason your threads get closed. You have no direction to a valid point.

Huh?

I really don't know what this has to do with testing synthetic oils to prove they are better. New or old engine, the oil is still the same.

Wrong again. I'll take a picture of my undercarriage and show you how much rust isn't there and I have 160000 miles on my car and has seen it's share of salty roads.

Come on and stop making up reasons to change your oil in shorter iintervals. Use a good filter.

Please post proof as to why it doesn't make sense to run long intervals on a high mileage engine.

Your point needs sharpening and you common sense is not common especially for someone who is informed of the facts.

We are looking for data from reputable sources in which you have yet to post.

You are lost dude. Talk to us when you read the info in the stickies and become informed.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Myth #10: Synthetics are too expensive.

Untrue. Tests and experience have proven that synthetics can greatly extend drain intervals, provide better fuel economy, reduce engine wear and enable vehicles to operate with greater reliability. All these elements combine to make synthetic engine oils more economical that conventional non-synthetics.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

That's not true Jeff. You're not using your "common sense". Instead your posting facts.

Armelius

Right now I have a chiltons. Nissan manual. And experiance of driving both nissans nearly 500,000 miles.

You have corvette. Al Unser. A four cylinder honda.

You are saying if I use synthetics I am going to get 35 mpg?

You have stickies. I have experiance with regular oil. They are both made to meet or exceed specified standards. Hell, all a synthetic oil maker has to do is meet those standards with it's oil and you will still think it's better. Right or wrong?

For years the government has produced a food pyramid and nearly every american is fat just from eating crappy grains. Just like the food pyramid someone will do a study (like consumer reports) and they will say there is no discernable difference with synthetics except they might last 1,000 miles longer.

Next you are going to say god exist because everyone goes to church. Give me a break.

S00NR1

iTrader: (3)

Well, considering for the next whole year I will be getting Mobil 1 syn for 2 dollars a quart, I would be doing my oil change for even cheaper than your dino oil change.

Armelius

How about this? Is it better to hold your **** and crap until the next day or is it better to get rid of it as soon as possible and get some fresh food and drink in your body?

Please tell me how your car is not like your body and all the synthetics you eat and drink on a regular basis.

Armelius

Great. How many miles do you have on your car? 47k miles. You practically have a new engine compared to mine. Let me tell you it won't make a bit of difference.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Buahahahahahaha! It' better to **** and crap out everyday. Too bad **** and crap are more like an engine's EXHAUST.

How often you change your blood?????

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Right now I have a multibillion sythentics oil industry + some of the top car makers using synthetics as thier oem oil backing me.

You have tired old nissans with 500,000 miles on them that can't beat Al or that Honda

Where does it say that? Nowhere. Stop making things up

You are right. Dino oil is only required to meet those stds. Too bad many of them BARELY meet it. It's no wonder you change your oil despite at 3,000 despite YOUR NISSAN MANUAL TELLING YOU 7,500 IS OKAY.
It's because they FAR EXCEED those standards. You want to put some $ on it?

What in the holy hell are you talking about???? WTF

You are the one that uses the CHILTON'S manual as a reference. Who is the one that needs a break???

Torkaholic

So since you have "experiance", almost 500k miles worth of it on dino, we must put great weight on what you say? Well, you have, by your own admission, no experience with syns, so I suppose we should put no weight at all on your condemnation of it.

Interestingly, I've got about 500k miles under my belt as well (I started driving in 1976), most of it with syns. Most recently, I converted my G35 over to synthetic. The operational difference was obvious on a subjective level -- then engine is smoother and not as harsh sounding at high rpm. And objectively, my first UOA was nearly perfect (see it here )

===============================================

No, actually, next I was going to say that you still haven't offered any evidence for what you claim. It's becoming pretty obvious that you don't have any. You can throw out all the distractors you want, God, going to the bathroom, whatever, but that changes neither the facts, nor the fact that the facts don't support your opinions.

Armelius

Exhaust is like **** and crap? I thought it was more like breathing. You telling me your blood cells last as long as you live or until you get a transfusion? Doesn't matter anyways. You said it's better to get rid of the crap and get fresh. How can oil be any different? You might be paying more for slightly better crap.

Just like in algebra there is a saturation point. No matter how good or how much you eat it isn't going to do much better.

I don't care if synthetics are the same price. If you are going to wait longer to change your oil you are taking more of risk that you might miss detecting damage or abnormal wear.

Something critical as oil I much rather change it more frequently than for longer periods. Like I said before they have the same rating on the back of the container. Both saying they meet or excede the rating. You are just spending more for potentially the same standard of oil.

Torkaholic

This analogy fails badly, but nice try anyway. The problem is that many, many objective lab analyses of used oil have proven that in a well-kept engine, with a good syn and proper filter, the oil just doesn't load up with particles of a size that will damage your engine. Regardless of how often you take a dump, you can't escape the fact that science has shown that good syns in healthy engines can run for well over 10k miles.

Torkaholic

Well how are you going to detect that abnormal wear or damage, since you apparently never test your oil anyway???

Do you understand the difference between proven fact and mere speculation? Just because you think it doesn't make it so.

Armelius

So basically you have nothing from nissan saying put in synthetics. You have a new car and they didn't put synthetics in it. You would think those wiley japanese would come up with the best synthetics since they have no oil in their country whatsover. Guess what. They didn't. It's cheaper to use regular oil than design and produce synthetics because you are going to get the same results on the same engine (nissan with high miles).

Hey, do your 10,000 mile oil change. When you get 250,000 miles on it tell me how often you are going to change your oil. By then I will have about a million miles on both cars.

You used synthetic oil since '76 where are your cars? Why didn't you buy a corvette with synthetic oil instead of the Infinity?

Multibillion synthetics industry? Where did they make their money from regular oil? It's cheaper to explore, drill, refine and deliever dino-weed oil than to make that designer synthetic oil and you pay the premium. Why is that?

Tell me. Are all synthetic oil the same? All of it superior? The crappiest sythetic is still better that the best regular oil?

From what I can tell I am putting crappy regular oil and 87 octane in my car and I am still getting better gas mileage and I will bet I will get more longevity from my engine than yours even if it is a G35 (by the way those are great and I wish I had one).

Armelius

At this point it doesn't matter does it? I have saved quite a bit getting great gas mileage on 87 octane and regular oil that I can go ahead and do a rebuild anytime right? I am certain that I am going to get 300,000 before I might find I need to do something to the engine. If I am getting great results from regular oil why can't you?