Oil Filters
03-29-2010, 10:49 AM
#1
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Oil Filters
I haven't been on the Board that much for the last year to two years until say the last month. It seems to me a year or so ago that I read some disparaging comments about the Nissan OEM oil filters for 4th Gen/5th Gen Maximas.
My understanding that the oil filter for my 95 SE and the 2000 SE I recently purchased for my wife are the same part.
If you had a choice of a NAPA Gold (Wix) or a Nissan oil filter which would you choose? Locally the Nissan filter costs Cdn$1.87 more, including taxes.
I am inclined not to go with the Mobil 1 filter or Purolator PureOne.
Thanks
My understanding that the oil filter for my 95 SE and the 2000 SE I recently purchased for my wife are the same part.
If you had a choice of a NAPA Gold (Wix) or a Nissan oil filter which would you choose? Locally the Nissan filter costs Cdn$1.87 more, including taxes.
I am inclined not to go with the Mobil 1 filter or Purolator PureOne.
Thanks
03-29-2010, 11:29 AM
#2
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Location: Central Iowa
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I currently have a stock of PureOnes's, OEM (were free), and NAPA gold's. I have always used the larger 9E000's or equivalent on my vehicles.
I just started cutting open my used filters and can tell you that you that yes, the OE filters that I have opened do indeed use engineered fiber endcaps as well as nitrile ADBV's. Some people have described the fiber endcaps as cardboard - and that is probably more negative than it needs to be, based on what I have read on BITOG. The general feeling over there is that they are fine for 3-5K OCI's. The ones I have pulled apart seem pretty sturdy, but I would not use them for extended OCI's.
I think the PureOnes and Golds are great filters. I buy the PureOnes from Amazon, where I can 6 filters for about $27/US, with free shipping.
I just started cutting open my used filters and can tell you that you that yes, the OE filters that I have opened do indeed use engineered fiber endcaps as well as nitrile ADBV's. Some people have described the fiber endcaps as cardboard - and that is probably more negative than it needs to be, based on what I have read on BITOG. The general feeling over there is that they are fine for 3-5K OCI's. The ones I have pulled apart seem pretty sturdy, but I would not use them for extended OCI's.
I think the PureOnes and Golds are great filters. I buy the PureOnes from Amazon, where I can 6 filters for about $27/US, with free shipping.
03-29-2010, 12:38 PM
#3
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Thanks, I live in British Columbia and the PureOne's here are expensive.
I haven't been on BITOG for quite some time either. I better get with the program.
I am in the process of renewing my passport and maybe I will pick up some from across the line. I just moved to within about 6 miles from the Canada - US border and can probably get them at Blaine, Washington or just south of there.
I haven't been on BITOG for quite some time either. I better get with the program.
I am in the process of renewing my passport and maybe I will pick up some from across the line. I just moved to within about 6 miles from the Canada - US border and can probably get them at Blaine, Washington or just south of there.
04-02-2010, 04:39 PM
#5
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I'd recommend the Wix/NAPA Gold over the OEM filter. Silicone anti-drainback valve, metal end caps, coil steel spring and the filtering medium is a blend of cellulose and synthetic glass fibers for enhanced efficiency and longevity.
04-02-2010, 11:27 PM
#6
04-08-2010, 01:58 PM
#11
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In my experience I've never seen any performance difference between filters. Plenty of superficial ones though. Whenever I have a new vehicle I do an extremely thorough service, and from that point on future oil changes come out clean.
Bit of a devils advocate here, but don't sweat the filter. If the more expensive filter gives you peace of mind, or makes you happy, or looks nicer. Go for it, price difference is usually only a cup of coffee.
Side-note: "better" filters tend to be better because they are more restrictive, that's it. Sometimes this can even be detrimental.
Your oil shouldn't have microscopic garbage in it either way, if it does there's something important to address.
Bit of a devils advocate here, but don't sweat the filter. If the more expensive filter gives you peace of mind, or makes you happy, or looks nicer. Go for it, price difference is usually only a cup of coffee.
Side-note: "better" filters tend to be better because they are more restrictive, that's it. Sometimes this can even be detrimental.
Your oil shouldn't have microscopic garbage in it either way, if it does there's something important to address.
04-09-2010, 07:07 AM
#13
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In my experience I've never seen any performance difference between filters. Plenty of superficial ones though. Whenever I have a new vehicle I do an extremely thorough service, and from that point on future oil changes come out clean.
Bit of a devils advocate here, but don't sweat the filter. If the more expensive filter gives you peace of mind, or makes you happy, or looks nicer. Go for it, price difference is usually only a cup of coffee.
Side-note: "better" filters tend to be better because they are more restrictive, that's it. Sometimes this can even be detrimental.
Your oil shouldn't have microscopic garbage in it either way, if it does there's something important to address.
Bit of a devils advocate here, but don't sweat the filter. If the more expensive filter gives you peace of mind, or makes you happy, or looks nicer. Go for it, price difference is usually only a cup of coffee.
Side-note: "better" filters tend to be better because they are more restrictive, that's it. Sometimes this can even be detrimental.
Your oil shouldn't have microscopic garbage in it either way, if it does there's something important to address.
Bobo started this thread by posing a simple question concerning two filter options...WIX/NAPA or OEM.
Anyway, if you've ever dissected/compared various filters, you will see that there is a huge difference between premium filters and the bargain basement variety. To say that all filters perform the same is like saying that all ice cream tastes the same...but the difference in price is usually more than the cost of a cup of coffee...
The three major performance indicators of a filters performance are efficiency, capacity and longevity. There's also significant differences in the quality/type of materials used and general construction.
Cheap filters are typically much less efficient thereby allowing larger contaminants to pass through, they contain a pathetic amount of filtering material (low capacity), and the glues used to hold the cheap cellulose fibers together in the filtering medium will break down in short order causing the filter to turn to mush if used for any length of time. Then consider that most cheap filters have cardboard/fiber end caps with a large hole in the top and no seal to seat the cheap leaf spring; they often lack or contain a cheap anti-drainback valve; and typically they have no pressure relief valve. I guess the engineers who design these filters don't see the need for a relief valve because the leakage around the filter is so great that it's not required
. You can probably get away with using one of these filters if you change them every 3000 miles, but that's about it. Premium filters on the other hand are much more efficient, but they are also engineered to meet the flow rate requirements of the OEM (and that's why its important to use the right filter for your engine and not to select one just because it fits). Greater efficiency reduces the amount of contaminants of the size that cause engine wear. They also contain properly calibrated pressure relief valves to ensure adequate oil flow should the pressure differential across the filter exceed the specified amount (such as on a cold winter start). Silicone anti-drainback valves prevent oil from draining back into the system when the engine is shut down and metal end caps and good adhesives prevent leakage around the filter. Premium filters also contain much more filtering material than cheap filters do and often times, depending on the brand, the composition of the media is enhanced with glass and/or synthetic fibers for increased efficiency and service life. The highest performing filters contain full synthetic fiber mediums.
Concerning "microscopic garbage", all engines generate wear metals and other contaminants that end up in the oil...you can never eliminate it. Dirt can also be ingested by using a cheap or high flow (low restriction) air fiter. The significance of using high quality filters is to reduce the amount of contaminants in the oil, and that will equate to longer engine life.
Back to Bobo's question, a Wix filter is a very high quality, medium-priced filter that is better constructed than the OEM variety. They're priced higher than a $2 FRAM, but they're much less expensive than a Mobil-1, K&N or AMSOIL Ea filter. Wix is an excellent choice for the person who wants a quality filter at a reasonable price and who changes oil IAW the OEM's recommendations.
Last edited by talkinghorse; 04-09-2010 at 05:06 PM.
04-09-2010, 05:23 PM
#14
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Fram: 96% @ 10microns - single pass
Wix: 98% @ 21microns -single pass
Amzoil filter 98% @10 microns- multipass
Mobil 1 filter 98% @10 microns-single pass
Super Tech 98% @ 20 microns- single pass
K&N 90% @ 10 microns- multipass
AC Duraguard 98% @ 25 microns single pass
Bosch Prem. 98% @ 15 microns- single pass
Purolator Prem 99% @ 10 microns single pass
multipass should be read as "not comparable".
So, best is Purolator Premium, second is Mobil 1, third best is... Fram? Go figure huh?
Yet none of these filters can be expected to do even nominal filtering at anything less than 10 microns. If they could, oil changes wouldn't be nearly so important, and that filter company would DEFINITELY let everyone know about it.
OEM is best standard operating procedure. If the OEM filter is actually kind of crappy (I haven't got any knowledge on this) then buy a decent brand and keep up with maintenance. But brands really don't seem to be the whole story a K&N is actually the WORST performing filter on that list despite being excellent quality, looking great inside, and being very nice to work with.
Even when you have directly comparable statistics you have to take them with a grain of salt, there's really nothing to prevent the filter companies from skewing the results somewhat. Multipass tests are one way to get better numbers.
I'm not saying there's no difference between filters talkinghorse, there very clearly is. But the differences you mention are only slightly more important than the color as best I can tell.
Wix: 98% @ 21microns -single pass
Amzoil filter 98% @10 microns- multipass
Mobil 1 filter 98% @10 microns-single pass
Super Tech 98% @ 20 microns- single pass
K&N 90% @ 10 microns- multipass
AC Duraguard 98% @ 25 microns single pass
Bosch Prem. 98% @ 15 microns- single pass
Purolator Prem 99% @ 10 microns single pass
multipass should be read as "not comparable".
So, best is Purolator Premium, second is Mobil 1, third best is... Fram? Go figure huh?
Yet none of these filters can be expected to do even nominal filtering at anything less than 10 microns. If they could, oil changes wouldn't be nearly so important, and that filter company would DEFINITELY let everyone know about it.
OEM is best standard operating procedure. If the OEM filter is actually kind of crappy (I haven't got any knowledge on this) then buy a decent brand and keep up with maintenance. But brands really don't seem to be the whole story a K&N is actually the WORST performing filter on that list despite being excellent quality, looking great inside, and being very nice to work with.
Even when you have directly comparable statistics you have to take them with a grain of salt, there's really nothing to prevent the filter companies from skewing the results somewhat. Multipass tests are one way to get better numbers.
I'm not saying there's no difference between filters talkinghorse, there very clearly is. But the differences you mention are only slightly more important than the color as best I can tell.
04-09-2010, 08:49 PM
#15
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Peace...I'm not challenging the numbers you posted, but most mfgrs typically publish efficiency ratings at 20 microns where they should perform well. According to information I've read, over 60% of engine wear occurs in the 5-20 micron range.
Also, a quick check of web sites from Purolator, FRAM and Mobil-1 show Purolator and FRAM both using the same ISO testing method and Mobil 1 using an SAE test. I also had a discussion with Mobil Tech Services a year or so ago and based on my notes from that discussion, the M-1 filter, while 99.XX% efficient at 25 microns is only 50% efficient at 10 microns. Another premium brand you listed there (AMSOIL) is 100% efficient at 20m, 98.7%@15m, 98%@10m, and a over 80% efficient @5m using the same testing protocol as Purolotor and Fram...and that greater efficiency in the small particle range is significant. And as I stated in my previous post, there's more to the story than just the efficiency...one needs to consider capacity, longevity and general quality if that is important to them.
This is a photo of a standard Fram filter...paper end caps, minimal amount of inexpensive filtering media, no seal where the filter matches up to the base plate, a leaf spring that also serves as a seal for the top of the filter (the base of the spring fits in the hole on the top of the filter), and for this particular application no pressure by-pass valve and no anti-drainback valve. I have to assume there is no by-pass valve because 1. it costs money and 2. there is probably so much leakage (oil by-passing the filter) around the spring or that the filter is inefficient enough where a by-pass valve is not needed. Not all filters are constructed in this manner, but this is an example of what a few dollars will get you.
By comparison, this is a photo of a higher quality filter for the same application. This particular filter uses a much higher quantity of premium filtering medium comprised of a blend of cellulose, synthetic and glass fibers (better efficiency, higher capacity, longer life), the metal end caps house an integrated by-pass valve, a coil spring holds the filter in place, and an anti-drainback valve for every application.
With this said, I would recommend one match the filter to its intended use. I don't believe it makes a whole lot of sense to buy a premium synthetic oil and $13 filter and change it every 3,000 miles. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend matching a low end filter with expensive oil and running it for extended intervals as I do...low end filters are simply not designed for that type of use.
Life is full of choices :-)
Also, a quick check of web sites from Purolator, FRAM and Mobil-1 show Purolator and FRAM both using the same ISO testing method and Mobil 1 using an SAE test. I also had a discussion with Mobil Tech Services a year or so ago and based on my notes from that discussion, the M-1 filter, while 99.XX% efficient at 25 microns is only 50% efficient at 10 microns. Another premium brand you listed there (AMSOIL) is 100% efficient at 20m, 98.7%@15m, 98%@10m, and a over 80% efficient @5m using the same testing protocol as Purolotor and Fram...and that greater efficiency in the small particle range is significant. And as I stated in my previous post, there's more to the story than just the efficiency...one needs to consider capacity, longevity and general quality if that is important to them.
This is a photo of a standard Fram filter...paper end caps, minimal amount of inexpensive filtering media, no seal where the filter matches up to the base plate, a leaf spring that also serves as a seal for the top of the filter (the base of the spring fits in the hole on the top of the filter), and for this particular application no pressure by-pass valve and no anti-drainback valve. I have to assume there is no by-pass valve because 1. it costs money and 2. there is probably so much leakage (oil by-passing the filter) around the spring or that the filter is inefficient enough where a by-pass valve is not needed. Not all filters are constructed in this manner, but this is an example of what a few dollars will get you.
By comparison, this is a photo of a higher quality filter for the same application. This particular filter uses a much higher quantity of premium filtering medium comprised of a blend of cellulose, synthetic and glass fibers (better efficiency, higher capacity, longer life), the metal end caps house an integrated by-pass valve, a coil spring holds the filter in place, and an anti-drainback valve for every application.
With this said, I would recommend one match the filter to its intended use. I don't believe it makes a whole lot of sense to buy a premium synthetic oil and $13 filter and change it every 3,000 miles. On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend matching a low end filter with expensive oil and running it for extended intervals as I do...low end filters are simply not designed for that type of use.
Life is full of choices :-)
Last edited by talkinghorse; 04-10-2010 at 07:05 AM.
04-10-2010, 07:41 AM
#16
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talkinghorse:
Thanks for your input.
I am currently using a NAPA Gold filter on my 95SE and plan to again on my next oil change.
About two years ago I sent in a sample to Blackstone Labs after 8,000 kms and they said that I could extend my drain interval. I use Esso Extra XD-3 0w30 PAO full synthetic oil which lends itself to longer drain intervals. My next oil change was after 9246 kms and 15 months.
I am currently at 7450 kms and 11 months and plan on going to 10000 kms, which I am sure the oil is more than capable of doing.
The question I have is, do you feel the NAPA Gold oil filter is fully capable of 10000 km OCIs. If so, how much longer would you feel comfortable in extending the drain interval to without changing the filter in the interim?
Thanks for your input.
I am currently using a NAPA Gold filter on my 95SE and plan to again on my next oil change.
About two years ago I sent in a sample to Blackstone Labs after 8,000 kms and they said that I could extend my drain interval. I use Esso Extra XD-3 0w30 PAO full synthetic oil which lends itself to longer drain intervals. My next oil change was after 9246 kms and 15 months.
I am currently at 7450 kms and 11 months and plan on going to 10000 kms, which I am sure the oil is more than capable of doing.
The question I have is, do you feel the NAPA Gold oil filter is fully capable of 10000 km OCIs. If so, how much longer would you feel comfortable in extending the drain interval to without changing the filter in the interim?
04-11-2010, 05:25 AM
#17
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talkinghorse:
Thanks for your input.
I am currently using a NAPA Gold filter on my 95SE and plan to again on my next oil change.
About two years ago I sent in a sample to Blackstone Labs after 8,000 kms and they said that I could extend my drain interval. I use Esso Extra XD-3 0w30 PAO full synthetic oil which lends itself to longer drain intervals. My next oil change was after 9246 kms and 15 months.
I am currently at 7450 kms and 11 months and plan on going to 10000 kms, which I am sure the oil is more than capable of doing.
The question I have is, do you feel the NAPA Gold oil filter is fully capable of 10000 km OCIs. If so, how much longer would you feel comfortable in extending the drain interval to without changing the filter in the interim?
Thanks for your input.
I am currently using a NAPA Gold filter on my 95SE and plan to again on my next oil change.
About two years ago I sent in a sample to Blackstone Labs after 8,000 kms and they said that I could extend my drain interval. I use Esso Extra XD-3 0w30 PAO full synthetic oil which lends itself to longer drain intervals. My next oil change was after 9246 kms and 15 months.
I am currently at 7450 kms and 11 months and plan on going to 10000 kms, which I am sure the oil is more than capable of doing.
The question I have is, do you feel the NAPA Gold oil filter is fully capable of 10000 km OCIs. If so, how much longer would you feel comfortable in extending the drain interval to without changing the filter in the interim?
Concerning the filter, I do believe that the WIX/NAPA Gold is an excellent filter at a very reasonable price...they're more expensive than the low-end filters sold at the discount department stores, but about half the cost of the premium brands. Wix/NAPA Gold oil filters are very well constructed and the glass-enhanced medium adds to the longevity and efficiency. Mobil recently added glass (and synthetic) fibers to their M-1 Extended Performance filters, a technology that my personal favorite brand employed back in the mid-90's...imitation is flattery.
Concerning your question, the conservative answer is that a Wix/NAPA Gold filter should be changed in accordance with the OEMs service recommendations. 10000 km is certainly within that margin, but I might be a little concerned about the length of time it is in service versus the mileage. With that said, I would recommend you change it at least annually.
Hope that helps...
Last edited by talkinghorse; 04-11-2010 at 05:31 AM.
04-11-2010, 08:56 AM
#18
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Thanks.
FWIW, when Blackstone said that I could extend my OCI they said that it is distance rather than time that affects TBN. The oil sample I sent them was after 8,000 kms and 12.5 months. At the time, I was using a Nissan OEM oil filter.
Perhaps the life expectancy of an oil filter and its filtration capabilities is another matter.
I just turned 132,000 kilometres on my 95SE and have owned it since October 1, 1994. I put about 40,800 kms on it the 1st three years I owned it and have averaged about 7,500 kms/year ever since (mostly highway).
An annual oil/filter change is not the most cost effective OCI for me, but I plan on owning this car forever. I am sure it will outlast me, lol!
FWIW, when Blackstone said that I could extend my OCI they said that it is distance rather than time that affects TBN. The oil sample I sent them was after 8,000 kms and 12.5 months. At the time, I was using a Nissan OEM oil filter.
Perhaps the life expectancy of an oil filter and its filtration capabilities is another matter.
I just turned 132,000 kilometres on my 95SE and have owned it since October 1, 1994. I put about 40,800 kms on it the 1st three years I owned it and have averaged about 7,500 kms/year ever since (mostly highway).
An annual oil/filter change is not the most cost effective OCI for me, but I plan on owning this car forever. I am sure it will outlast me, lol!
Last edited by Bobo; 04-11-2010 at 09:03 AM.
04-16-2010, 07:46 PM
#19
I have no info. about the partical size these filters capture, but just for fun I bought one and cut it open. As you can see, it's a hell of a lot better than the famous Orange brand. I use one every oil change. About $5 each.
Since your in Canada., I thought I'd pass this along.
06-13-2010, 10:55 AM
#24
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Do yourself a favor and don't use Fram oil filters. They are made in Mexico, have cardboard end caps and either no anti-drain back valve or a crappy one, can't remember which.
Are you changing your oil every 2500 to 3000 miles? If so, that is a waste of time and money. Use a quality synthetic oil and filter.
If you aren't already using synthetic oil, consider using Auto-rx first (auto-rx.com)
Are you changing your oil every 2500 to 3000 miles? If so, that is a waste of time and money. Use a quality synthetic oil and filter.
If you aren't already using synthetic oil, consider using Auto-rx first (auto-rx.com)
06-16-2010, 01:18 AM
#25
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Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 388
Fram will do okay at 2500-3000 miles, but why bother. They barely do the job, but for that much money ur spending on a fram, you can buy a filter with 50x more quality. If you want to go cheap, then use the Walmart SuperTech filters. At least those are made in the USA and are 10x the quality a Fram has.
06-21-2010, 03:11 PM
#26
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Posts: 30
I used a Mobil 1 for this oil change. So far, so good. I know that Champion Labs creates both the Mobil 1 and K&N filter, but are there any differences between the two? I know at full price, the K&N is about $1 more - so wondering if there's any justification for it.
Thanks!
Thanks!
07-07-2010, 05:09 PM
#27
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Posts: 79
I do understand the aversion many have to the fram design, however, i've never seen the fibrous end caps fail. they are tougher than the filter media, so the media itself would tear before the endcaps fall apart. but since there are higher quality filters on the market for about the same price, then as ronson said why bother with the fram?
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