Michelin Pilot Sport A/S earns #1 Ultra High Perf. A/S from Tire Rack
11-23-2002, 12:04 AM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by TimW
. How many guardrail stories have we heard when that rear steps out? If any car needs the grippiest tire out there, its a maxima. Especially if you have a RSB and run over a pebble on an exit ramp.
. How many guardrail stories have we heard when that rear steps out? If any car needs the grippiest tire out there, its a maxima. Especially if you have a RSB and run over a pebble on an exit ramp.
11-23-2002, 05:49 AM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by srbarnes4ever
Not sure what the type of car has to do with it Jeff. Tires aren't made for a type of car as much as for driving environments I think. So if you're looking for all season performance then why not consider everything from least to most expensive and decide based on your priorities which set to purchase. Keep in mind also that the OE 17" tires are expensive as hell but deal ol' daddy Nissan justified that size/brand for us....Worst decision they made by far I think. I actually have a 240 sx that I'd like to make into a seriously SR20det'd version though!
Not sure what the type of car has to do with it Jeff. Tires aren't made for a type of car as much as for driving environments I think. So if you're looking for all season performance then why not consider everything from least to most expensive and decide based on your priorities which set to purchase. Keep in mind also that the OE 17" tires are expensive as hell but deal ol' daddy Nissan justified that size/brand for us....Worst decision they made by far I think. I actually have a 240 sx that I'd like to make into a seriously SR20det'd version though!
If I'm not mistaken, the Pilot is over $240 each. That's alot of money. You've got WR rated tires selling for $120-$140 (235/40-18). WTF is WR, good to 168 mph or something? Can you honestly say a Maxima requires or can benefit from a $240+ tire?, when the $130 tire like the ES100 has a AA traction rating and is good to 168 mph? Here is a concept that many people miss, it's called marginal benefit. Maybe, just maybe, the Pilot is better than the ES100. But it's nearly double the price. Even if you have money to burn, I think it's wasted money. If you have an A6 4.2, yes, put Pilots on because you've got an expensive car and AWD. just my .02
11-23-2002, 08:21 AM
#43
Originally posted by Frank Fontaine
Of course the type of car has alot to do with it. Granted in the forum world some pocketbooks are unlimited. In the real world, as in economics, resources are scarce. You'll see this firsthand when you manage people--some of the high salary people are doing no work and you can't get rid of them. Some of the young people making much less are knocking your socks off with what they do, but you can't hold on to them because you're hands are tied as far as how much you can pay them and when they get a better offer, they're gone. What does that have to do with tires you ask?
If I'm not mistaken, the Pilot is over $240 each. That's alot of money. You've got WR rated tires selling for $120-$140 (235/40-18). WTF is WR, good to 168 mph or something? Can you honestly say a Maxima requires or can benefit from a $240+ tire?, when the $130 tire like the ES100 has a AA traction rating and is good to 168 mph? Here is a concept that many people miss, it's called marginal benefit. Maybe, just maybe, the Pilot is better than the ES100. But it's nearly double the price. Even if you have money to burn, I think it's wasted money. If you have an A6 4.2, yes, put Pilots on because you've got an expensive car and AWD. just my .02
Of course the type of car has alot to do with it. Granted in the forum world some pocketbooks are unlimited. In the real world, as in economics, resources are scarce. You'll see this firsthand when you manage people--some of the high salary people are doing no work and you can't get rid of them. Some of the young people making much less are knocking your socks off with what they do, but you can't hold on to them because you're hands are tied as far as how much you can pay them and when they get a better offer, they're gone. What does that have to do with tires you ask?
If I'm not mistaken, the Pilot is over $240 each. That's alot of money. You've got WR rated tires selling for $120-$140 (235/40-18). WTF is WR, good to 168 mph or something? Can you honestly say a Maxima requires or can benefit from a $240+ tire?, when the $130 tire like the ES100 has a AA traction rating and is good to 168 mph? Here is a concept that many people miss, it's called marginal benefit. Maybe, just maybe, the Pilot is better than the ES100. But it's nearly double the price. Even if you have money to burn, I think it's wasted money. If you have an A6 4.2, yes, put Pilots on because you've got an expensive car and AWD. just my .02
Look, if you've got a budget constraint, you've got a budget constraint, period. Your options are to get the best value among the lower priced tires. That's fine - but don't knock someone who sees the value in getting the best tire out there and "investing" in the driving enjoyment they provide. Have you ever actually tried the A/S's?
Regarding your thoughts about people who do no work in your workplace, but still get paid well...I don't know where you may be employed but where I work these folks would be gone in a millisecond! Heck even some good employees have gotten laid off in this economic climate, let alone "slackers". If you've got an employee who's unproductive on a continual basis, and you can't figure out how to dismiss this individual(s), then I would suggest revamping management procedures/techniques/and style. But anyway this really is off-topic.
Back on topic: I haven't tried the Sumitomos, nor am I saying they are a "Kumho" type tire. But I can tell you when I had Kumho's (W rated by the way), the very first time I had to brake suddenly at a high speed, the tires cupped and got out of round and were ruined. Sure they were stable at high speeds but that's all a W rating means. A W rating doesn't speak to how a tire will handle or brake at all - just how high a SPEED it can take before it becomes unstable, that's all.
With the A/S's, I'm almost convinced the rotors will warp before the tire becomes even a bit unstable! Believe me I've "confirmed" this on a few occasions and as a matter of fact I recently HAD to get my rotors resurfaced.
The degree of confidence while driving that I have with the A/S's is much more than I've had with any other tire (excluding the SO3's in dry conditions).There really is no substitute for having a top performing tire.
11-23-2002, 08:38 AM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by sleepermax
Look, if you've got a budget constraint, you've got a budget constraint, period. Your options are to get the best value among the lower priced tires. That's fine - but don't knock someone who sees the value in getting the best tire out there and "investing" in the driving enjoyment they provide. Have you ever actually tried the A/S's?
Regarding your thoughts about people who do no work in your workplace, but still get paid well...I don't know where you may be employed but where I work these folks would be gone in a millisecond! Heck even some good employees have gotten laid off in this economic climate, let alone "slackers". If you've got an employee who's unproductive on a continual basis, and you can't figure out how to dismiss this individual(s), then I would suggest revamping management procedures/techniques/and style. But anyway this really is off-topic.
Back on topic: I haven't tried the Sumitomos, nor am I saying they are a "Kumho" type tire. But I can tell you when I had Kumho's (W rated by the way), the very first time I had to brake suddenly at a high speed, the tires cupped and got out of round and were ruined. Sure they were stable at high speeds but that's all a W rating means. A W rating doesn't speak to how a tire will handle or brake at all - just how high a SPEED it can take before it becomes unstable, that's all.
With the A/S's, I'm almost convinced the rotors will warp before the tire becomes even a bit unstable! Believe me I've "confirmed" this on a few occasions and as a matter of fact I recently HAD to get my rotors resurfaced. The degree of confidence while driving that I have with the A/S's is much more than I've had with any other tire (excluding the SO3's in dry conditions).
There really is no substitute for having a top performing tire.
Look, if you've got a budget constraint, you've got a budget constraint, period. Your options are to get the best value among the lower priced tires. That's fine - but don't knock someone who sees the value in getting the best tire out there and "investing" in the driving enjoyment they provide. Have you ever actually tried the A/S's?
Regarding your thoughts about people who do no work in your workplace, but still get paid well...I don't know where you may be employed but where I work these folks would be gone in a millisecond! Heck even some good employees have gotten laid off in this economic climate, let alone "slackers". If you've got an employee who's unproductive on a continual basis, and you can't figure out how to dismiss this individual(s), then I would suggest revamping management procedures/techniques/and style. But anyway this really is off-topic.
Back on topic: I haven't tried the Sumitomos, nor am I saying they are a "Kumho" type tire. But I can tell you when I had Kumho's (W rated by the way), the very first time I had to brake suddenly at a high speed, the tires cupped and got out of round and were ruined. Sure they were stable at high speeds but that's all a W rating means. A W rating doesn't speak to how a tire will handle or brake at all - just how high a SPEED it can take before it becomes unstable, that's all.
With the A/S's, I'm almost convinced the rotors will warp before the tire becomes even a bit unstable! Believe me I've "confirmed" this on a few occasions and as a matter of fact I recently HAD to get my rotors resurfaced.
The degree of confidence while driving that I have with the A/S's is much more than I've had with any other tire (excluding the SO3's in dry conditions).There really is no substitute for having a top performing tire.
At $90 per square foot plus labor of a stone guy to put it in, I could not afford it. One year no payments = no dice for me, I hate debt. I settled for Corian which is great, but it's not granite. Spend $240 a tire on a Maxima just isn't wise imho. But to each his own. Flex your credit card muscle boys! It's only money.
11-23-2002, 09:09 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by sleepermax
Back on topic: I haven't tried the Sumitomos, nor am I saying they are a "Kumho" type tire. But I can tell you when I had Kumho's (W rated by the way), the very first time I had to brake suddenly at a high speed, the tires cupped and got out of round and were ruined. Sure they were stable at high speeds but that's all a W rating means. A W rating doesn't speak to how a tire will handle or brake at all - just how high a SPEED it can take before it becomes unstable, that's all.
With the A/S's, I'm almost convinced the rotors will warp before the tire becomes even a bit unstable! Believe me I've "confirmed" this on a few occasions and as a matter of fact I recently HAD to get my rotors resurfaced. The degree of confidence while driving that I have with the A/S's is much more than I've had with any other tire (excluding the SO3's in dry conditions).
There really is no substitute for having a top performing tire.
Back on topic: I haven't tried the Sumitomos, nor am I saying they are a "Kumho" type tire. But I can tell you when I had Kumho's (W rated by the way), the very first time I had to brake suddenly at a high speed, the tires cupped and got out of round and were ruined. Sure they were stable at high speeds but that's all a W rating means. A W rating doesn't speak to how a tire will handle or brake at all - just how high a SPEED it can take before it becomes unstable, that's all.
With the A/S's, I'm almost convinced the rotors will warp before the tire becomes even a bit unstable! Believe me I've "confirmed" this on a few occasions and as a matter of fact I recently HAD to get my rotors resurfaced.
The degree of confidence while driving that I have with the A/S's is much more than I've had with any other tire (excluding the SO3's in dry conditions).There really is no substitute for having a top performing tire.
11-23-2002, 09:50 AM
#47
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
How are the A/S's going to cause the rotors to warp?
How are the A/S's going to cause the rotors to warp?
11-23-2002, 10:31 AM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by sleepermax
The tires won't cause the rotors to warp. I was referring to what happens during extreme braking where the rotors heat up and warp a bit.
The tires won't cause the rotors to warp. I was referring to what happens during extreme braking where the rotors heat up and warp a bit.
11-23-2002, 11:31 AM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
Its actually the OEM pads that cause the rotors to warp.
Its actually the OEM pads that cause the rotors to warp.
There are various "lots" of OEM too. The first set I got didn't match the web part#, and when I called the dude he shipped some more pads. The other ones matched last gen Altima, yet looked identical physically.
So I don't know if it's the pads, driving style, or even how far down the pads go before replacement that ruins the rotors. Another friend claims the farther down you go on the pad the more chance of warping the rotors (it doesn't take metal to metal, just heat).
11-24-2002, 04:28 AM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 722
Goodyear and Michelin are both very large and experienced tire manufacturers, but both are very expensive for what they are - why? ADVERTISING - super bowl ads, blimps, hot air balloons, etc. all must be paid for. Like the difference between C&C and Coke - the contents of the cans cost the same, why is the selling price different by 2X? In tires a 5% difference in performance is a lot. For many, however, there's the satisfaction of having the "best", an intangible value. For myself, I don't buy Goodyear, Michelin (Bridgestone's headed that way), Coke, Pepsi, Bud etc. because of the advertising - I paid for it once by sitting through it.
Michelin bought/merged with BFG and Uniroyal but is keeping them as second tier labels and this is reflected in the price and advertising budgets.
Michelin bought/merged with BFG and Uniroyal but is keeping them as second tier labels and this is reflected in the price and advertising budgets.
11-26-2002, 07:35 AM
#51
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 551
As far as the price goes.....
from what I've seen you'd be insane to pay $215 (no offense to anybody that did), cuz there are ways to get around the high price for the tire. If you look around a little you can find them at a cheaper price when they go on sale. Place by me runs a "buy 3 get 1 free" 2x per yr (merchant's tire). sears matches prices, so take them an online ad and buy the tires when they offer you 10% off for using your sears card (similar to what another .org member did). they'll still be expensive, but i'd rather put in a lil time and pay 180/tire than $215. If you think/know you're gonna need tires in 6 months, start looking now and you can get what you want for less than regular price. how many of you would have gone to the dealer to get your max w/o knowing invoice, cost of options, reading the classifieds, etc.? Eenis has spoken.
11-26-2002, 03:12 PM
#52
good point
I paid $193 each from Tire Rack and got them mounted and balaced for free (the shop that had done my tires previously had scratched a rim slightly so they said they'd do the next set free). With tires this expensive you definitely need to look for the best deal. You can also generaly cut a deal for mounting/balancing if you frequent the same shop and get to know the folks there. I don't know if I would have been willing to pay any more for them though. If they would have been more expensive I'd have either gone for the Sumitomo's or the SO2's since TireRack had a close-out sale on them at the time at $150 each or so. They have been worth every penny and still hardly show any signs of wear! 
11-26-2002, 04:43 PM
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 140
I've been fortunate...
Originally posted by sleepermax
I paid $193 each from Tire Rack and got them mounted and balaced for free (the shop that had done my tires previously had scratched a rim slightly so they said they'd do the next set free). With tires this expensive you definitely need to look for the best deal. You can also generaly cut a deal for mounting/balancing if you frequent the same shop and get to know the folks there. I don't know if I would have been willing to pay any more for them though. If they would have been more expensive I'd have either gone for the Sumitomo's or the SO2's since TireRack had a close-out sale on them at the time at $150 each or so. They have been worth every penny and still hardly show any signs of wear!
I paid $193 each from Tire Rack and got them mounted and balaced for free (the shop that had done my tires previously had scratched a rim slightly so they said they'd do the next set free). With tires this expensive you definitely need to look for the best deal. You can also generaly cut a deal for mounting/balancing if you frequent the same shop and get to know the folks there. I don't know if I would have been willing to pay any more for them though. If they would have been more expensive I'd have either gone for the Sumitomo's or the SO2's since TireRack had a close-out sale on them at the time at $150 each or so. They have been worth every penny and still hardly show any signs of wear!
http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results...ound5.html#sts
http://www.4d-sport.com/pages/758660/index.htm
Barry
11-27-2002, 12:02 AM
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 157
Originally posted by mayhem_J30
that extra money goes towards LASTING performance. the michelon will withstand the heat cycling and have greater performance longer where the cheapo's will start out great but after heat cycles they become hard and not worth sqwat
that extra money goes towards LASTING performance. the michelon will withstand the heat cycling and have greater performance longer where the cheapo's will start out great but after heat cycles they become hard and not worth sqwat
but not twice as long. So you could buy two sets of the HTR+'s for
less than one set of A/S's. When the HTR's lose their performance
just slap on the new set and you'll have better performance than the
pilots that are holding to the last part of their capibilities, which
surely isn't as good as when they were new and not as good as the
brand new HTR's you just put on.
Thats what I would do anyways.
11-27-2002, 03:42 AM
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by 975spEEd
They may hold on to their performance capibilities a while longer
but not twice as long. So you could buy two sets of the HTR+'s for
less than one set of A/S's. When the HTR's lose their performance
just slap on the new set and you'll have better performance than the
pilots that are holding to the last part of their capibilities, which
surely isn't as good as when they were new and not as good as the
brand new HTR's you just put on.
Thats what I would do anyways.
They may hold on to their performance capibilities a while longer
but not twice as long. So you could buy two sets of the HTR+'s for
less than one set of A/S's. When the HTR's lose their performance
just slap on the new set and you'll have better performance than the
pilots that are holding to the last part of their capibilities, which
surely isn't as good as when they were new and not as good as the
brand new HTR's you just put on.
Thats what I would do anyways.
The bottom-line is if you have money to burn, go ahead and spend double the price to get something maybe 15% better. There are people like that out there, who always have to have the best (in their mind) and they have the pocketbooks to back it up. My best suit cost $500, I think that's a good chunk of change for a man's suit. What did John Gotti spend, 8 times that for each of his? It's not 8 times better, maybe only 3.33. Just like the Pilots are about 15% better than HTR+ at a price of about 92% more. For a Maxima. Last time I checked, on my property it's an apple, not a money tree. sheesh!
11-27-2002, 08:48 AM
#56
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Last time I checked, the Tirerack has a full blown test comparing the Gs, braking, and track data (wet and dry) of the HTR+, Pilot Sport A/S, and Pirelli P7000.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
11-28-2002, 08:58 AM
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 140
Originally posted by Dave B
Last time I checked, the Tirerack has a full blown test comparing the Gs, braking, and track data (wet and dry) of the HTR+, Pilot Sport A/S, and Pirelli P7000.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
Last time I checked, the Tirerack has a full blown test comparing the Gs, braking, and track data (wet and dry) of the HTR+, Pilot Sport A/S, and Pirelli P7000.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
In 1997, before I began autocrossing the Maxima cost to a large degree, functionality secondly , out weighed performance considerations and I bought some BFG Comp T/As (lasted forever and ended up on my wife's Camry Wagon).
As I began autocrossing (Street Tire Classes, for the most part) I moved up to Ultra Performance tires and consequently paid more but was still looking for a value, such as last season's "hot tire" at close out prices. Heck, if you get to the padock @ a Speed Touring Car event the Toyo Support folks will sell "take-offs" for $10.00 ea., and while not the best, they work when the autocross competition is light.
The proposal to run decent tires on the street, save the money for a set of wheels and DOT-R tires is a good one if you have a place to compete on race tires. However, if you're going to compete with National caliber driver's and car setups in Street Touring - S (Street Tires) it could cost upwards of $1,000.00 tires, tax, mounting, etc. Not for everyone but in this sport when the difference in first and second is often thousands of a second tires mean a LOT.
http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results...ound5.html#sts
Cheers,
Barry
11-28-2002, 09:07 AM
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 140
Originally posted by 4D Sport
I think I understand the debate here, getting a good tire at a reasonable price.
In 1997, before I began autocrossing the Maxima cost to a large degree, functionality secondly , out weighed performance considerations and I bought some BFG Comp T/As (lasted forever and ended up on my wife's Camry Wagon).
As I began autocrossing (Street Tire Classes, for the most part) I moved up to Ultra Performance tires and consequently paid more but was still looking for a value, such as last season's "hot tire" at close out prices. Heck, if you get to the padock @ a Speed Touring Car event the Toyo Support folks will sell "take-offs" for $10.00 ea., and while not the best, they work when the autocross competition is light.
The proposal to run decent tires on the street, save the money for a set of wheels and DOT-R tires is a good one if you have a place to compete on race tires. However, if you're going to compete with National caliber driver's and car setups in Street Touring - S (Street Tires) it could cost upwards of $1,000.00 tires, tax, mounting, etc. Not for everyone but in this sport when the difference in first and second is often thousands of a second tires mean a LOT.
http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results...ound5.html#sts
Cheers,
Barry
I think I understand the debate here, getting a good tire at a reasonable price.
In 1997, before I began autocrossing the Maxima cost to a large degree, functionality secondly , out weighed performance considerations and I bought some BFG Comp T/As (lasted forever and ended up on my wife's Camry Wagon).
As I began autocrossing (Street Tire Classes, for the most part) I moved up to Ultra Performance tires and consequently paid more but was still looking for a value, such as last season's "hot tire" at close out prices. Heck, if you get to the padock @ a Speed Touring Car event the Toyo Support folks will sell "take-offs" for $10.00 ea., and while not the best, they work when the autocross competition is light.
The proposal to run decent tires on the street, save the money for a set of wheels and DOT-R tires is a good one if you have a place to compete on race tires. However, if you're going to compete with National caliber driver's and car setups in Street Touring - S (Street Tires) it could cost upwards of $1,000.00 tires, tax, mounting, etc. Not for everyone but in this sport when the difference in first and second is often thousands of a second tires mean a LOT.
http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results...ound5.html#sts
Cheers,
Barry
You guys were talking about Ultra High Performance All Season tires. I was off in Max Performance land, duh!
11-28-2002, 07:02 PM
#59
Originally posted by Dave B
Last time I checked, the Tirerack has a full blown test comparing the Gs, braking, and track data (wet and dry) of the HTR+, Pilot Sport A/S, and Pirelli P7000.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
Last time I checked, the Tirerack has a full blown test comparing the Gs, braking, and track data (wet and dry) of the HTR+, Pilot Sport A/S, and Pirelli P7000.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...reModel=HTR%2B
As you can see, the much more expensive tires were fractionally better than much cheaper Sumitomos. We're talking 0.2 of a point.
If you read the 20+ reviews of the HTR+'s, you'll that many BMW M-class drivers are running the cheaper HTR+'s and are very happy with their performance.
I've run three different types of Sumitomos on my Maxima and they've all been excellent and I've got a set of HTR+'s on the way. They handle incredibly well, they're quiet and smooth, wear well, and most importantly, they're cheap. I've never had any problems with the tires becoming unbalanced, cupping, wearing funny, radial ply seperation, you name it. As far as I'm concerned, I won't go with another make of tire regardless of how much money of got in the bank. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Sumitomos. Sumitomo is Dunlop which is partnered with Goodyear. The rubber, the technology, and quality is passed between these companies.
Seriously, how often are you going to use a street tire to it's full advantage on the street? Why in the world would you want to compete in autocross with fancy street tires? With the money you save buying a set of HTR+'s, you'll have ~$600 left over. Why not take the $600 and buy a set of full blown DOT race tires and save up another $200 and buy some rims to mount the tires on?
Dave
BUT let's get the facts straight: The Pilot Sport A/S's are marginally better in almost all categories but are SIGNIFICANTLY better in wet conditions. It rained for almost two weeks a few days ago here in Austin and the tires handled unbelievably well and felt absolutely safe, while I was driving as if it was dry. I recall maybe, maybe one occasion where I felt I had to slow down some while taking a steep curve, otherwise the only reason I knew it was raining is because I saw the rain not because the car handled any differently! That in itself is reason enough for me to justify having spent the extra bucks. Secondly, the price difference I paid and I believe quite a few other folks that have the A/S's paid, is not as much as you and others might think. Let's say the Sumitomo's are $105 for example. I paid $193 for the A/S's, that's a price difference of only $352. Lastly, marginal differences in the ratings are really more than marginal in real world driving. Like in the the 1/4 mile for example, a mere .2-.3 seconds is a significant difference.
I think some folks here are getting a bit carried away with this topic - if you think that's too much money to spend on a tire, fine good for you, you don't hear me criticizing anyone for wanting or having to spend less. But let's get the facts straight.
11-29-2002, 03:53 AM
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by sleepermax
Hey Dave - I agree with your points and I would have gotten the Sumitomo's if they made them in my size (215/55/16) but they don't (at least not when I was in the market for tires last).
BUT let's get the facts straight: The Pilot Sport A/S's are marginally better in almost all categories but are SIGNIFICANTLY better in wet conditions. It rained for almost two weeks a few days ago here in Austin and the tires handled unbelievably well and felt absolutely safe, while I was driving as if it was dry. I recall maybe, maybe one occasion where I felt I had to slow down some while taking a steep curve, otherwise the only reason I knew it was raining is because I saw the rain not because the car handled any differently! That in itself is reason enough for me to justify having spent the extra bucks. Secondly, the price difference I paid and I believe quite a few other folks that have the A/S's paid, is not as much as you and others might think. Let's say the Sumitomo's are $105 for example. I paid $193 for the A/S's, that's a price difference of only $352. Lastly, marginal differences in the ratings are really more than marginal in real world driving. Like in the the 1/4 mile for example, a mere .2-.3 seconds is a significant difference.
I think some folks here are getting a bit carried away with this topic - if you think that's too much money to spend on a tire, fine good for you, you don't hear me criticizing anyone for wanting or having to spend less. But let's get the facts straight.
Hey Dave - I agree with your points and I would have gotten the Sumitomo's if they made them in my size (215/55/16) but they don't (at least not when I was in the market for tires last).
BUT let's get the facts straight: The Pilot Sport A/S's are marginally better in almost all categories but are SIGNIFICANTLY better in wet conditions. It rained for almost two weeks a few days ago here in Austin and the tires handled unbelievably well and felt absolutely safe, while I was driving as if it was dry. I recall maybe, maybe one occasion where I felt I had to slow down some while taking a steep curve, otherwise the only reason I knew it was raining is because I saw the rain not because the car handled any differently! That in itself is reason enough for me to justify having spent the extra bucks. Secondly, the price difference I paid and I believe quite a few other folks that have the A/S's paid, is not as much as you and others might think. Let's say the Sumitomo's are $105 for example. I paid $193 for the A/S's, that's a price difference of only $352. Lastly, marginal differences in the ratings are really more than marginal in real world driving. Like in the the 1/4 mile for example, a mere .2-.3 seconds is a significant difference.
I think some folks here are getting a bit carried away with this topic - if you think that's too much money to spend on a tire, fine good for you, you don't hear me criticizing anyone for wanting or having to spend less. But let's get the facts straight.
Sure, many of us can blow $450 extra on one set of tires, but when you get into real life decisions, you're no longer talking about bus fare, you're talking heavy paper. Do you ever make a decision to spend less, or are you top shelf all the way? I know I would have liked to spend about 70 grand more to get a house on a less busy road, but I had to cut myself off somewhere. It would have been 15% more, not the 92% more like you propose, yet still it came up no can do.
11-29-2002, 08:52 AM
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally posted by sleepermax
Rationalization is a great defensive mechanism. Fortunately (or UNfortunately for some) it doesn't change the facts.
Rationalization is a great defensive mechanism. Fortunately (or UNfortunately for some) it doesn't change the facts.
11-29-2002, 08:47 PM
#63
yea i just bought a set for my 2k1 wheels and they are EXPENSIVE
i spent 703 dollars for them on sale at costco (wholesale store) to have them balanced and installed! (225/45/17)...
luckily that was insurance money and not mine but dam, who would have thought...
i spent 703 dollars for them on sale at costco (wholesale store) to have them balanced and installed! (225/45/17)...
luckily that was insurance money and not mine but dam, who would have thought...
11-30-2002, 08:03 AM
#64
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 604
I have a set of Michelin XGZ4's in 17's. I just took them off to put my winter tires on. So far I have 49,670 miles on them, they are getting close to the wear bar but I think I could get another summer out of them. That's alot of miles on a Z rated tire. We need to look at dollar/mile I'd imagine that the cost per mile would be about the same. If indeed they are then why not get the marginally better tire if the cost/mile is the same? Heck I'd invest in that, heck I did. <shrugs>
$185/50,000 miles = $0.0037/mile.
How long do the other compairing tires last?
$185/50,000 miles = $0.0037/mile.
How long do the other compairing tires last?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
hez8813
5th Generation Maxima (2000-2003)
11
03-12-2020 12:06 AM