Hey guys,
I have 2k3 6 sp, and have a quick question for you. This is my first stick car, so I'm still a n00b at it. I'm able to drive "normally" (i.e. not racing) pretty well, but I can't shift smoothly when I'm trying to shift gears really quickly.

I was watching the M5 guy videos (http://playground.sun.com/greg), and when he was doing his "upshifting" demo, he was switching gears extremely fast and there didn't appear to be any noticeable jerk in the car. From my experience and knowledge, when you're upshifting and step on the clutch, you have to let the revs drop to the proper range for the next gear. So, when I upshift, there's a slight delay in the whole process, but in that video, the M5 driver was shifting in a fraction of a second and just dropping the clutch (this was done in 3rd and 4th gear, not the high end ones).

So, how was he able to do that? It seems like the revs shouldn't have time to drop for the next gear, yet he was able to shift smoothly.

Also, what do you guys usually shift at (rpm wise) when doing casual driving? I try to do it at around 2500-3000 rpm, but I read on some other board that this range bogs the engine (I seriously doubt that myself, but wanted to check with you guys).

And, finally, what do you rev the car up to when taking off from a stop? What would be excessive revving with respect to burning the clutch?

Thanks for the help.

 

I don't think there's any secret besides quick footwork and practice. You don't really have to "wait" for the RPMs to drop just to have a smooth shift.

One of the things I like about my max is it seems to take hard shifting fairly well. It's been real crisp and smooth in the small amount of times I've driven through a couple gears as hard as I can. Normal driving shifting is sometimes not as smooth, but I need a new clutch. I usually shift in the same range as you do, 2500-3000...
normally start off at about 1000-1200 rpms. Aggressive launches not much different - I don't all-out drop the clutch, more of a really aggressive slip, keeping the RPMs below 2000. I don't think the max needs much more to get it launched, but if you had better rubber than I, maybe a bit more aggressive.

Granted I drive a 4th gen but I wouldn't see any of the above being that much different in a 2k3. Might do some searches to find other ppls ideas.

 

i have to say maxima 5spd is one of the trickiest for me to drive. the clutch on my datsun 720 pickup is more stiff whereas the stock maxima clutch is very quick/sensitive for me at first. i'm not sure about this double clutch thing that are in new cars now don't quote me. anywho i shift at 2500 - 3000 in normal driving conditions. me especially from 1st - 3rd gear i shift and drop the clutch quick halfway, the slowly let the rest go, then depress clutch again and change gear blah blah. as for taking off after a red traffic light, i have to blip my engine to get it to atleast 800rpm (my idle is like 400rpm). the idle is spose to be 800 when u first get the car.

 

You don't have to wait for the revs to drop and just let it freewheel down. As soon as you're in the next gear, you can re-engage the clutch very quickly, and the clutch will slip briefly and bring the engine down to the lower revs much faster than if it was just freely spinning. This doesn't put much wear on the clutch either. As he states in the video, it's important that you don't get on the throttle and try to send power through the clutch before it's fully hooked up.

Just because it looked smooth in the video doesn't mean that it really is, though. He had a very good camera mounting system and a video camera that probably had all of the latest stability enhancements. I read his webpages and he also has a 996TT, so he probably has some pretty darn good camera equipment. hehe But with fast and smooth shifts you can make the car feel about like an automagic in terms of smoothness.

When driving an automatic, the more you're on the throttle, the higher the shift points. That's how you should drive a manual. My "slow" driving style is still pretty freakin quick, so I usually shift at about 3000-4000. Only very rarely am I taking it easy and just grannying But if I am, about 3000rpm is about right.

The VQ has so much torque that you hardly need to rev it at all. Once you get used to it, you should be able to get yourself going and the clutch fully hooked up, even going uphill, without even breaking 1000rpm. If I want a little faster takeoff, 1200-1500rpm is more than enough. On cold mornings my clutch is a litte grabby, though, so I have to rev up higher to avoid stalling if it catches abrupty. If you're revving anymore than 1500rpm for just casual launches that's probably too much slippage.

Practice getting your car going from idle without your foot even on the gas. That will help you learn the engagement point of the clutch and build a little more confidence. As Greg said in his M5 video's, all you need to do is just hold the clutch at its engagement point while keeping a steady throttle and it'll hookup all by itself. After that, let go of the clutch pedal completely and add as much power as you want.

 

Hey Steve (and everyone else),
Thanks for your detailed response. I have a few follow-ups though...



I tried doing these quick shifts, and even though I was smooth with the pedal, the car jerked when I let the clutch out after the shift. I'm guessing that it was the synchros not having enough time to bring the engine revs down. I can shift quickly w/out grinding and such, but it's not smooth at all--it jerks when the clutch is let out.

Quote:

The VQ has so much torque that you hardly need to rev it at all. Once you get used to it, you should be able to get yourself going and the clutch fully hooked up, even going uphill, without even breaking 1000rpm. If I want a little faster takeoff, 1200-1500rpm is more than enough. On cold mornings my clutch is a litte grabby, though, so I have to rev up higher to avoid stalling if it catches abrupty. If you're revving anymore than 1500rpm for just casual launches that's probably too much slippage.

I've done takeoffs with no throttle by letting out the clutch real slow, but I'm really concerned with clutch wear, and I'm trying to instill good clutch-saving technique right from the start. Therefore, I try not to slip the clutch too much, and just add a little gas instead. I guess my concern is attaining balance: slipping the clutch fast enough to not burn the clutch, yet slow enough not to stall.

Quote:

As Greg said in his M5 video's, all you need to do is just hold the clutch at its engagement point while keeping a steady throttle and it'll hookup all by itself. After that, let go of the clutch pedal completely and add as much power as you want.

Yes, I was wondering about that as well. The engagement point, I'm assuming, the point where it starts to grab a little, yes? Also, when he says hold it there, isn't that causing unnecessary slippage? How long, approx. in seconds, do you have to hold it at the friction point for engagement?

Also, I tried going up a hill (not major incline, but still a hill) without giving it gas and just letting up real slow on the clutch, and I stalled, so I think hill starts you have to add gas, but I'm still learning, so perhaps not.

Thanks fellas.

 

If you're switching gears agressively and as fast as you can, you don't wait for the RPMs to drop. That would kinda defeat the purpose of a quick shift (especially if you're waiting for the RPMs to drop from 6600 to 700 idle). Furthermore, your RPMs would go from 6600 to 700 back up to the 4000 RPMs range in the next gear up. That would be all over the place. It really comes down to a timing thing. Practice is all you need. A friend who knows how to drive stick well would help so you can see in person how it should be done. Good luck!

 

Ok, when I said I wait for RPMs to drop, I'm not talking about dropping to idle. For example, if I'm doing X mph at 6600 rpms in 3rd gear or whatever and want to shift to 4th, the rpms in 4th at X mph are 5800 (just a guess), so I wait a little for the rpms to drop to that number (I don't literally wait, but just use timing so that by the time I change the gear and start letting out the clutch, the rpms are in that range).

When I try to shift quickly, the rpms dont have time to drop, so when I engage the clutch, the car jerks forward a little. I CAN shift fast and drive it fast, but I just wanted to know how to eliminate the jerk.

Thanks.

 

I could be wrong but I think you're not doing your footwork at the same time enough if that makes any sense. Your clutch foot should start going in as your gas foot is halfway off the gas (not completely off) so that when your clutch foot is starting to disengage the clutch your gas foot is only 1/4 on the gas and coming off quick. At the same time, when your clutch foot is halfway/two-thirds of the way down, you should start shifting so that when the clutch is fully disengaged, you're already entering the next gear (you can easily come out of a gear without causing harm to the gear box with a 2/3-3/4 engaged clutch. It's going into a gear where your clutch foot should be down all the way (fully disengaged clutch). Use the same procedure in reverse to let go off the clutch and get back on the gas. That last part is the trickiest and requires the most practice. Too early and you'll get some clutch burning (too many revs with the clutch not engaged enough meaning slipping), or too late and you get the whole jerk thing you're talking about. When you're clutch foot is 2/3 off the clutch, start moving your gas foot. In order to be smooth, you need to give it some revs while the clutch is still disengaged (however, way more engaged than disengaged). You don't want to fully take your foot off the clutch and THEN press the gas. That'll jerk the car in quick hard shifts. It's very hard to explain and I could be making no sense at all.

Phew...this post looks like it makes no sense.
Oh well..you can always disregard this post if it's confusing

 

No, I see what you're saying. However, as Steve said (and Greg in the M5 video mentions), you don't want to give gas until the clutch is fully engaged, so I don't give the car any gas until the clutch pedal is all the way out. Is that correct?

Thanks Axel and others.

 

vito:

i'm in the same position as you, as i've been practicing on my cousin's subaru lately.

however I noticed that when he drives it hard and does the quick shift, there is no jolting and jerkiness... just a surge or power as the car engages the next gear.

I've noticed it's not waiting for the clutch pedal to get fully out to press the gas, but rather finding that point where the clutch catches the next gear and smoothly letting it out while giving it gas. As the members who have posted here have said, all it takes is experience to find that point and then it will be totally natural as your foot finds the catch point during fast shifts and then giving it gas.

The way i've been taught to do that is to start off in 1st with no gas, letting out the clutch slowly with no jerkiness. After engagement in 1st, I give it gas and follow the same with every upshift into the next gear.. letting out the clutch trying to not jerk the car and then giving it gas. After about two weeks of this, I can shift fast MOST of the time with a smooth, powerful shift.

 

Not entirely. Theoretically, it's correct, however, a human being can't react fast enough. This is why you should start giving gas just as you're letting go off the clutch.
I'm talking about less than half a second shifts here by the way.
Waiting to have the clutch fully engaged before giving gas already takes at minimum half a second. Adding gas just as your finishing your clutch work will make everything much smoother when shifting extremely fast. However, I did say it was tricky and requires practice because if you give it too much gas with the clutch not engaged enough, you will slightly burn your clutch (or very much burn it if you don't let go off the gas once the clutch start slipping). Only practice will make perfect You should start with what the M5 guy said and slowly increase your shift speed. You'll notice that when you get down to less than a second to shift, you have to give it gas earlier not to jerk. Below half a second and you have no choice. Below half a second, things are almost happening all at once instead of in sequential order.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. So, should I be adding gas just as the clutch pedal is coming up and starting to engage OR when the clutch pedal is almost completely out (i.e. almost engaged)?

Also, I'm assuming the amount of gas I should add in is very tiny, correct?

In normal shifting (not racing), should I still be adding gas to my shifts or do I just keep doing it as I do now (i.e. wait until the clutch pedal is completely out before getting on the gas again)?

You guys are great--thanks!

 

try driving a viper or nsx.. viper is hard and nsx clutch SUCKS... now a M5 has the best and easiest clutch imo to drive, I LOVE it - chaz, can we do a M5 clutch conversion to my car?

as far as shifting, all I can say is just give it time and take it easy - you'll pick it up more and more. Shift points, i usually for easy driving (which is very rare) shift around 3500, and to take off I must rev to around 3200 because of ACT clutch will chatter if I do not - also ACT clutch make you learn to rev match very well, I thought I was good at rev-matching before, then the act just showed everytime i wasnt perfectly matched haha - anyways, give it time, it'll become nothing before long

 

i actually drive smoother when i race vs. average driving, and my driving has sucked since i changed my muffler...that beautiful PULL i had is gone . Its amazing what a catback will do...feels like my car is choking


if racing, i pull out of first at like 2 rpm...then switch at like 5 or 6....

 

The second, start giving gas when the pedal is almost completely out and therefore the clutch almost fully engaged. Obviously though, this depends on where your point of friction is in your clutch pedal travel. If it's low then you give gas earlier because your point of friction is early and vice versa if your point of friction is high.
As for how much gas, in total racing you give it full gas. However, don't give it full gas right away, practice first with only a little gas. You won't get it right on right away so take it easy on your clutch. As you get the hang of it, it'll start feeling more natural and you'll be able to give more gas right away because you'll get your timing right. You should notice this method when you give it a nice easy try. You'll see how smooth it is.
As for normal driving/granny driving, you can do either one but it's easier to just do what you're doing now which is waiting for the clutch to be fully engaged. You see, when you're granny driving, your RPMs never get very high, therefore, waiting for the clutch to fully engage first isn't a big deal. If you're racing, your shifting at redline which means if you wait, you get RPM fluctuation which can jerk the car. Giving it gas just before the clutch is fully engaged (or more like just as the clutch is fully engaging) keeps the revs high. In racing shifting, your RPMs are never below 4000 on the Maxima.

 

I shift better when I dont "think" about it. Especially a hard 1-2 shift...

 

I agree, there's so many things happening all at once that simply thinking about it screws everything up
However, when you're just starting, you need to think about the process. As you keep doing the same thing over again, your brain starts recording the necessary pattern and sequence of the motor skills required to make the shift. Once your motor skills are recorded in your brain, you can start shifting a little faster. After a while, it becomes second nature and you're shifting super fast with no thought required. At this point, if you do think about it, you're slowing yourself down because you're adding thought processing instead of using simple reflexes and motor skills.
But I'm sure everyone knew that. I only put it into words

 

Hmmm...I'm thinking of just trying to do the "race" method even when driving normally/granny. I still get jerkiness even when I'm shifting around 3k rpms if I don't time the shift correctly.

The reason I didn't use the "add gas while clutch slipping" method is because I heard that it ruins the clutch faster because you're slipping the clutch. I'll try it out and see what happens.

SteVTEC, did Greg (from M5) mean that you should let the clutch out all the way before adding gas as in the clutch pedal all the way out? If anyone's interested in his videos, they are at http://playground.sun.com/greg

Thanks all.

 

Yes but it was well said

 

I race my car and I'm still on my original clutch with no issues. Heck, my engine just blew up last week so my clutch and transmission lasted longer than my engine! You'll be fine. Just remember that the gas and clutch at the same time shouldn't last longer than a split second and at low revs from granny shifting, there's no issues. A clutch isn't THAT fragile
In any case, you can smell a clutch burning. It's foul
As for your jerkiness even when waiting for the clutch to be fully engaged. It could be because you're letting go off the clutch too quickly. If you do that, try releasing the clutch as slowly as you would when starting from first without gas. Then, once the clutch is fully engaged, give it gas. (That's if you want to keep doing the waiting method when granny shifting).

 

Hehe, thank you! At least one person finished reading that blurb

 

Ok, good...Cause all the talk about clutches makes it seem like they're made out of butter, so I wasn't sure how easy you have to be on it. Is excessive clutch wear only noticeable when you smell it? In other words, can you excessively wear it out without smelling it?

Quote:

In any case, you can smell a clutch burning. It's foul
As for your jerkiness even when waiting for the clutch to be fully engaged. It could be because you're letting go off the clutch too quickly. If you do that, try releasing the clutch as slowy as you would when starting from first without gas. Then, once the clutch is fully engaged, give it gas. (That's if you want to keep doing the waiting when granny shifting).

Would letting the clutch out as slowly as when starting in 1st cause burning of it? Also, the rpms would drop significantly while slipping slowly, so wouldn't you get a jerk?

I think I understand now though. I'm sorry for asking so many questions, but I would just really like to learn the right way right from the start, instead of learning on my own mistakes, learn from others

Thanks

 

You can maybe burn out a clutch over a period of a few years without smelling anything but that's mostly from riding the clutch (a big no no). Intense clutch burning you smell right away unless you're smoking a joint while driving or something Also, if you do smell a burned clutch, don't freak out. Just let the clutch cool down and it'll be ok. (As long as you don't smell the burned clutch everyday for weeks, cause even then, if you let it cool down every time, you'll have issues. But once or twice is ok.) I'm just trying to tell you that although a clutch is one of the most wearable items on your car aside from brake pads and tires due to the amount of friction, it's still not "butter" to use the word you mentioned.
And to answer your second question, no it wouldn't because since you're shifting so slowly, your RPMs have dropped considerably. Again, your clutch isn't that fragile. If you really think about it, everytime you disengage your clutch and re-engage it, your clutch has to match the speed of your flywheel. The slower the flywheel, the better for your clutch. A well driven clutch can last you at least 6 years. Just imagine how many shifts that is (and the awful bumper to bumper traffic you'll most likely encounter at some point on the road).
And as for asking all these questions, don't worry about it. Everyone has to learn sometime. I'm just glad I can help and I hope my advice works out for you. May your clutch live long and prosper

 

...normal takeoffs??

Steve's talking more of when the clutch is fully "hooked up" and not "clutch pedal all the way out"...you have to give it gas before you come all the way off the pedal. He just means don't floor the gas before the clutch is fully engaged, I think.

It's really just footwork and doing both at the same time. If you're jerking, chances are you're letting the clutch out too fast and/or without enough gas. I learned to shift fast just by doing it. Of course, I would be a little leary of learning this way in a new 2K3 Maxima. I'd go easy on it well past the breakin period, and then maybe trying here and there. Don't need to rush these things, esp when the clutch is newborn

About wear on the clutch, the main thing is minimizing the amount of gas and the time your foot is on the gas pedal before the clutch is engaged (ie, before you've come up enough to hit the point of engagement on the pedal).

 

I have been driving manuals for close to 17 years now and I can honestly tell you are right. Well said.

 

One thing to keep in mind is the gear ratios. 1st gear and 2nd gear are quite far apart, so shift slowly between 1and 2. What I mean is, give the engine a chance to let the revs drop when you go from 1st to second gear. For the 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 shift, shift quickly. Those gears are closer together, so you should shift as fast as possible so the revs don't drop too far.

Enjoy your smooth shifting

DW

 

in first, bring it up medium, like to 4k, then shift so quickly that it seems comedic, like it seems almost too fast. then take 2nd up to about 5k or 5.5k. once there, shift like lightening, then your 3rd is the catapult gear. rev it nearly to redline, then shift fast fast to fourth and put that into sub-redline, then go to fifth, nearly redlining that, then go to sixth. by then, with those fast shifts and high revs, you will be going about 140 or 150. do this at a safe place. do not do this too often, but cultivate the style. launching hard off-the-line too often will waste gas. but the quick shifting applies, though no matter what, like the race car thing you saw. also, get a short-throw shifter, like the race drivers have, when you master shifting as you will want to take it to another level.

 

and, yes, the guy's advice prior to mine is an excellent point: first and second are farther apart. you will let the revs drop anyway by the act of shifting within these, but do heed his advice about gear ratio, as will i. and shift quickly. get out of the gears and into others.