Driven about 5000 miles... without a single maintenance procedure done. The next maintenance will be an oil and filter change sometime this week.

IMHO, a turbo kit that is setup correctly from the start will not have as many problems as one that was not. This is why I spent the extra time to do things right. Do it right the first time, or you will have to do it again. No hokie pokie crap...

 

What can I say that hasnt been said in Dixit's thread yesterday. Just a disappionment, More like a for what you pay. I know Hal isnt having fun with this whole situation, but if you do something right the 1st time nothing like this would happen.

 

Oh yeah... these guys didn't have the proper setup in the first place, so now you see the end result.

 

Whatever


I have no idea what you mean here. Some background.
1) I've swapped engines and have done some head work on my own ride, by myself with my own tools.(don't you have a shop do all your work?)
2) I got eibach/tokicos, 17x8 rims/tires, Y pipe, custom exhaust w/ ball joint flanges(1st here that I know of), advanced timing, FSTB(one of the 1st for the VEs), Y2k muffler(again one of the 1st on a 3-gen), developed a custom pressure brake bleeder(1st here on .org) for a 3-gen, JWT ecu, ST front bar, ADDCO rear bar(one of the first few to mix bars), I'VE HAD A TURBO INSTALLED ON MY CAR AND IS NOW UNDER FUTHER DEVELOPMENT(but it's not installed presently). Key statement here. Friend designed it and built it. I've purchased the design and prototype and have contracted a shop to jig it and build better versions. So yeah, my car is "ALMOST" stock.



No one should be offering a kit w/ serious design issues that "might" require wholesale redesigning of pipes.(which defeat the whole purpose in the first place of the turbo install) I don't know if that's the case here or not. Baggs will decide.



I think you are equating your SC setup w/ a custom turbo setup. I think that's an incorrect assumption. You are taking alot of the inherent design/built quality for granted that can't be taken for granted here.

Of course not, but basic design/fabrication should be at a certian level from the getgo. It's not been done here. It's like if your SC mounting plate alignment was off spec or was cracking all the time.

 

And that makes me want to bring up something else. Kevin, if you would switch places with Dixit for a second...you would have gone to KY to pick up your car...looked at it and after you picked yourself up off the ground after fainting, you would tell Hal to FIX this **** the right way as soon as you looked at it. Right? It is because you KNOW what you are doing and what you are getting yourself into and your attention to detail is somewhat ****. (like me) That car should have NEVER left KY. Period. Not until the thing was fixed properly. Anyone disagree?

As far as Jeff and Brians statements go...like I said earlier. Look at the # of turbos that Hal put out there. Honestly, the kits are still in the prototype stage and need to be customized for every car they go into until certain design flaws are corrected and a kit can be mass produced. We are NOT talking about clear corners here. This is $4000 and paying for something that expensive, you do have some expectations. But, there should also be the expectation that you are a pioneer in the world of turbo Maximas and that thing MAY NOT just plug right in and work to your satisfaction. Anyone disagree with that?

 

that's true, but still the wrong attitude to have. I always kept enough money stowed away to buy a tranny or a new engine. I can't afford downtime like that.

I agree more money spent for a quality job will yield less problems down the road, that's true of everything, but still a turbo setup will never be as reliable and trouble free as not changing anything (staying stock), as you now have many more parts to break, more connections to come loose, more lines to leak, more fuel control devices, etc.

I was simply stating nobody should get into this without knowing that it can become very costly and that it's much easier to break things (expensive things). You did your setup right Kev, these people bought a kit that was no where even close to right. I'm not defending the kit and saying it's their fault. They're entitled to a kit as advertised, a kit that should not require immediate drastic action. I was just commenting that I felt his thought of 'I should purchase a kit and not have to put any money into it."

I re-read what I wrote and I can see where you're getting where you're getting, but I really just think (from personal experiences with ALL my cars) that if you start modding you need to be able to cough up the dough for stuff that you break or stuff that you need to make the car do what it needs to do.

Kev, on another side note, if you blew your tranny up tomorrow would you be super ****ed, blaming Nissan, blaming your mechanics, blaming PFI and all the other people responsible for your turbo setup. No, I think I know you well enough to say you'd be a little sad or waht not but you'd understand why things broke and you'd pop right back up with some super built tranny (someone has a lot of donation money right now, hehe). At any rate, I just wanted Big John to realize it's not just a $4,000 one time fee. Later on down the road he will probably incur costs from the turbo that were not planned (e.g. broken tranny, blown engine, tuning, etc.)

 

Dude spent 4 grand will probably have to spend many hundreds of dollars more and you're arguing about semantics?

 

Converting a naturally aspirated engine to a forced induction engine is a tedious business, and you are bound to have problems with an engine that was not originally designed to handle said boost. But he hasn't even gotten to the point where he can find these issues becuase the original turbo design/layout/install is so sh!tty! That is the total and complete responsibility of the party involved with the sales/production of said modification, and the reason for both of these threads to be started in the first place. Granted, when you add this much potential power to an engine that was not originally designed to have it in the first place you'll have problems and more/excessive wear of major components. Anyone who knows anything about cars and power adding mods realizes this (or at least should realize this). Dixit and bags knew some of the risks they were taking when doing these mods. Just b/c they don't know as much about design doesn't mean they didn't realize these risks. The design and testing should be worked out BEFORE BEING SOLD TO ANY CUSTOMER. Even if it's tough for individuals and small companies to do this, it must be done. This isn't just my opinion, but a fact of business.

And BrianV, this isn't in direct response to you post, but rather my addition to what you've posted (sort of)...

 

For those who don't think this is Hal and his shops problem should go out and buy a Yugo. I guarantee you guys would complain about the quality of this car just like the people who bought this car in the late 80's. The car was the product of a half a$$ed job to present the public with an affordable vehicle for under $8000 and now the company is out of business. I wonder why? It wasn't the consumers fault the company presented them with garbage.

 

Jeff you want to sit here and try and make me look dumb. I don't care I'm not going to participate in this. Frankly, all I stated was HAL'S KIT HAS PROBLEMS, THEY NEED TO GET FIXED, JOHN DOES NOT DESERVE THIS, but I think it's a bad idea to assume that owning a turbo'd car is going to be a walk in the park. In the long run it will cost you more money, it will cost more time, etc.

I'm not comparing this to my SC'd ride other then the fact that even my SC incurred me thousands of dollars of consquential damage (not due to design, but just due to more power, boost, etc).

You're missing the point in waht I said and trying to pull out every little thing I said independetly and trying to prove me wrong (which isn't the point).

I'm sorry I assumed your car was stock, but that has no reflection on what I originally said.

Do not assume I do not know about turbo's either, I know what and how a kit should be and I never said Hal's kit was good, I said the problems should not be there, and that they're easily avoidable.

Stop picking on me.

 

How much extra time and money do you think you invested in your kit aside from the original kit price?

 

the only level he has mod his car was to boost 5PSI which is not even boosting 5, only 3PSI so his car should not be breaking anything @ 5PSI.

 

I agree 100% with what you said. The kit should've been in working condition before, but John's comment made me think that he thinks turbo ownership shouldn't be difficult it shouldn't cost money, etc. As you stated in your post,

"Granted, when you add this much potential power to an engine that was not originally designed to have it in the first place you'll have problems and more/excessive wear of major components. Anyone who knows anything about cars and power adding mods realizes this (or at least should realize this)."

 

They can't even get their car running right to break anything.



They can't even get their car to a point where they are even considering these little nagging things.



That's why these posts exists. Actually Kev's kit was not correct either. But he MADE it correct by himself.



Yes. Drastic action? You mean basic design and engineering flaws?



No one thinks this.



Again, I think they would be extremely happy to be putting enough power down to break something at this point.

Nope. He wouldn't be blaming anyone. He's the ultimate "gotta pay to play" dude. I think BigJohn realized long ago there would be extra costs w/ a turbo kit. He didn't expect to pay for subpar basic installation quality and flawed design. That's a WASTE of money. NOT "pay to play" deal. There's a big difference.

 

Later on down the road with a workiing kit he will be boosting though.

 

Right...most people don't realize that putting on a high flowing intake (CAI, WAI) usually shortens the engines life slightly b/c regardless of what the filter company says, there is more dirt/minute particles of junk passing through their engine...

 

Brian, I'm not picking on you. IMHO you are misunderstanding a very basic thought. These guys already know they will have to pay more to keep their car running right. Who doesn't??? They have been around this board much too long NOT to know this. No need to keep telling them they need to be prepared to pay more.

If you think they should have had a correct kit from the get go fine. But that DOESN'T = "be prepared to pay more to keep your car running right." I think you have already stated this correct?

You seem to be repeating the same two statements that everyone already agrees with.

 

I don't know what time schedule Dixit was on, so I can't speak for him. If I didn't have anything else to do, I would have told him to fix all the problems and let me know when he was done. Granted it's very easy to say this now because a couple months have past and it's hard to spot things right away.

Sounded like Dixit was in a rush and he needed his car back. I'm pretty sure he would have stayed or went back home without the car if he knew all this was going to happen.

It's VERY hard to spot problems right away since it he didn't install it himself. What does he look for? How does he know if XXXXXXX is working like how it should?

As I stated in another thread, getting the install done for free (or if you did not participated on the install) is a con because you don't know what to do if your car breaks on the side of the road. Doing a "FREE" install is a marketing ploy since every kit needs to be customized. Ask the shop to send you a pre-assemblied kit and see what they say.

 

Can you elaborate on how exactly the kit should have been done from an engineering/fabrication/design/materials standpoint?

Again, please explain how they would be EASILY avoidable. Remember please answer the question as if you never saw these posts about Hal's turbo kit before. Because that's the situation these two were in before they made their decisions.

 

he didn't do much..

he did the UOP tap and SS lines, which was his own doing.. he wanted to run a safer setup.. he could have ran the kit fine with not much of an additional cost ok.

the only additional cost kev went through was shipping, which nigel tried to get re-embursed

 

Time?

My point is, (my impression is that) Kevin put a lot of effort into making his kit fit well, look good, and function well.

You can't expect a shop that will never see your car again to care as much. Same reason a large number of people here don't take their cars to dealers or shops to get work done.

If you want something done right, do it yourself.

 

 

If I blew up the tranny, it would be my fault because I took it too extreme. 5-6 psi... alright, you won't blow stuff up, but 10-12 psi will be my fault since I was stupid enough to go that high on stock internals.

I think you're missing Jeff's point, Brian. He's stating that Dixit and Kirk knew full well that they will have to repair damaged parts caused by the turbo setup, but they didn't anticipate turbo parts breaking on their own. There's a huge difference there...

parts breaking because of the turbo boosting too high
vs.
parts breaking because of a bad install


Time? Hmmmmm..... I would say one week of taking my time when I had all the correct parts with me.

Money?
Necessity:
- Weld two O2 sensor bungs

Because I don't like how PFI returns the oil:
- New SS oil return line, welding of the oil return adapter onto the upper oil pan, threaded oil return flange on the turbo.

Extra stuff because I'm ****:
- B&M oil cooler, Mocal thermo-sandwich adapter, SS braided lines which I did myself
- FP gauge
- SS fuel lines which I did myself
- Cartech FMU

More bling bling stuff that is not needed:
- ball-bearing turbo
- Blitz SBC iD boost controller
- Blitz DTT DCII turbo timer





So... $40 to weld the bungs. That's two donations for OT access!

 

these threads are interesting.....

ive been reading most of it but havent commented cause id rather not get too involved.
This is a big reason why i never attempted to make and sell a turbo kit. too much drama in life alreadywhy add another one. of course if i did do a kit im sure i wouldnt have some of these probs. oh well

 

TurtleMax's Chop Shop can do no wrong.

 

 

I understand where you're coming from Jeff, I just must've read that statement from Big John different then everyone else. As far as kit quality, I would definitely like to see a kit that fist on all Maxima's the first time. The piping should not be cut differently for each vehicle. That's why Hal is having different problems with different cars. The metling issue is plainly HORRIBLE. Frankly, it's obvious that thin wires (usually insulated by plastic and rubbers) are going to melt if sitting on or near a turbo that has impeller speeds 10x greater then an engine. I don't think I understand the complaint about the material used for the oil line. I would imagine a SS line would get the job done (wrapping it around the motor mount it stupid, like wrapping your brake line around your springs). What's the complaint about the line used, someone said a brake line (I assume they're not talking about a rubber brake line for obvious reasons (hot oil + rubber line)). I can live with ugly welds as long as they hold to be leak free. I know for a fact Maxima's have real high tendecies to have exhaust related rattles. I could never cure my car of rattlitis. Thus, I have no idea how Hal can get his car rattle free without a flex section, but if he can then make sure it's rattle free on all applications (see again why all parts should be the same for all Maxima's).

It appears Hal has each kit installed differently with different places with different parts and with different specifications. That just has an array of potential differences and quality realted issues. There should be one kit that works on every car, that has clearance on every Maxima (4th and 5th gens would be two different kits). One that has some sort of quality control to ensure that all parts are included and are consistent. The install should be able to be done by any competent mechanic with proper tools using a provided instruction guide by Hal.

There's no excuse for the used turbo thing, absolutely no excuse at all. I was in awe when I read that, and Bags I give you a lot of credit for just letting it slide, but if I were in your shoes I'd be doing the same thing.

Now the important thing, where to go from here:

Frankly I think you are within your right to get everything fixed. I also thinks it a completely fair call to say just give me the new turbo and I'll take care of everything on my own. That would basically mean you got the kit (like you were supposed to) and you made all the necessary adjustments and financial dents. Frankly I really respect that, and you should be entitled to that and more. On the other hand I've heard Hal's financial status with this stuff is real bad, he probably doesn't have the option of doing that, unless his supplier can do it for him. Hal probably wishes he could do more, but just dosen't have the money which just sucks, but still that's not anyone's problem but his own, he could've priced it higher to make up for stuff like this.

I wish you the best of luck, and I think you're approaching it very rationally.

Finally, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding of everything, I got the feeling John thought this was supposed to be plug, play, and forget, but apparently he knows that's not the case.

Good luck to all, again sorry.

 

you mean like this?

 

I think for the most part everyone is in some sort of agreement on the build and install quality of the kit, as well as, the potential costs incurred down the road. There are just slightly different viewpoints that a couple members are nitpicking over. We know that the installation and the fixes can be better dealt with. We know this was a custom kit, and as Kevin pointed out basically every aftermarket turbo has some customizing in it. Yes it should have been tested more thoroughly before being delivered to the customer. But they are past that point now. They need to focus on getting their problems fixed however they can or cut their losses short. It would be sweet if Hal stepped up to the plate (if he isn’t already doing this) and did all he could possibly do. There is a lot of hardship on all the parties involved and they really need to work it out. I don’t think a couple members on here nitpicking over this and that really does anything. Do you guys?

 

my quick 2 cents.

My time has gone above 40 man hours trying ot fix things myself.

Cost has gone over $900 on fixes I paid a shop and parts I paid for.

Jeff and Brian, please do not hack away at each other. Thank you

I will reply more,but my time has grown limited.

And thanks kev for all you have help with including the cylinders still owe ya a beer

 

never!

our motto is always blame the customer....


juss kiddin juss kiddin....opps...maybe shouldnt say that espically in this thread???

 

Was this necessary? I didn't see any possible solutions in here? Of course nitpicking is not really needed. But some were fairly off base and it needed to be clarified before anyone got the wrong idea.

Most of the problems(expensive ones anyway) are design/weld related. I think he could probably live the welds IF they hold and don't leak. But some of the problems probably require baggs to get to a reputable shop and have the redo some of the pipes. NOT cheap to have done right. And that shop might not be willing to fix just some of the work. Looks like he already is well on his way to fixing his stuff anyway. He asks us to wait for more updates later.

 

unless the insolubles are high in their oil. you are saying that you will see more particles with larger filters and the reason is the increase of the air flow. If you have a K&N panel filter for the stock instake and a stillen WAI, you will see more particles entering the engine with the Stillen. However, if you divided the amount of particles to the amount of air flow for both intake. their numbers should be the close.

unles someone actually hook up a particle counter to the intake and measure it before and after the install. With a equipment like that, you will be able to set the flow to a limit and measure amount of the particles by sizes in a minute.


WAI usually get the same quality of air as stock. CAI might require more maintenance on the filters.

 

Its not "EXTRA" time and money. Its what should have been done to start with. Its all the small little details that make or break something such as this. I do not consider what Kev did on his install extra, its what I personally think, and know is neccesary to do in order to prevent problems in the future. I have always said that if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. This isnt always a reality but for poeple like Kev, Myself, ect..(too many to list) who lucky know what we are doing. I would rather spend an extra grand or two upfront and get a job done correctly, then save some cash, cut a few corners and have an unsatisfied customer as a result who is just gonna end up costing more money for both myself to fix and the customer.

That just is not fair to the consumer who expects to get exactly what they pay for only to find out something has been done half @ss'd on thier car. Mistakes like this cost alot of money to the person who runs the business, as an example there were several people who were considering Hal's kit and now are reluctant to process with a purchase for these reasons. Hal is losing customers left and right for just cuttin some corners. People are now turning to Nigels kit and the S/C again. As a result Nigel and Stillen will now profit from this mistake. This unfourunatly is how business works. It just does not add up to save a little bit only to lose so much. I know Hal knows how to do everything correcty, what is goin through his mind is beyond me

Good Luck to all those with the turbo problems on getting them fixed and to Hal, I dont know what you are going to do to redeem yourself but Good Luck to you as well.

 

juss to verify

a shop designed the kit and Hal installed it? so the problem is with the parts or labor? or both?

 

Yup!

Hey, what's that canister with the FPG? Fuel filter or fuel pump?


Eh... don't worry about it.


I know for a fact that Hal got the design from mingo for his own setup (which is the exact design mingo talked to us about... which in turn he discussed with Hal). But Hal took it a step further and "customized" each setup for his customers.

The shop(s) installed the kits... how much did Hal participate in the installs, I don't know.

 

How close did these installs occur related to his move to Calif.

 

 

Or you could just get your oil analyzed every time you change it like I've always done, and make the judgement for yourself (along with Blackstone's help, of course).

 

I did. After using cone filter, my silicone content(indicating dirt) didn't go up.