http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

Comments, anyone?

 

I'll stick with 87 octane...

 

But seriously . . .

 

Nah...I'm cool with 91. I'm not boosting, nor am I running Nitrous at this point. I don't have any problems with pinging or retarding even though I did get a timing advance.

For those boosting though this may be a benefit, but sounds like a pain in the **** to get for a decent price. How many of you know a chemical supply warehouse? Even if you do they probably don't sell to the public. I mean one drum? They most likely have customer accounts with tens or hundreds of drums sold at a time.

 

I also have my timing advanced. And when the weather gets hot here in So. Cal., I get a little detonation at low rpms. It's not bad enough for the knock sensor to retard my timing, but I just don't like detonation . . . period. And I don't want to reduce my timing advance to get rid of it.

One way around the problem is to use Techron Concentrate. That stuff works like magic for eliminating detonation. But it's too expensive to use all the time. I need a cheaper alternative. Depending upon how much I have to use to get the job done, toluene may just fill the bill.

 

In the UK you can get 97 at the gas stations.

You can only do this with a car that can retard the timiming. For exmaple with my '95 Ford Taurus I bumped the base timing from 8deg to 12deg and got a little bit of a power gain, but I was forced into always buying 93 because 87 would ping whenever I went up a big hill or stomped on the gas.

Can you imagine if I adjusted the timing to take advantage of, say, 96 octane? I could prolly run 14-15deg advance. But the first time I have to fill up and have no toluene on me, I'm screwed - the car's gonna ping like mad all the way home.


Now with the max the advance/retard is computer controlled (the knock sensor). I wonder what the computer's max advance is? Is it programmed to advance high enough to benefit from 97 octane? It's not just the ocate rating that makes the power - it's the fact that the engine can run timing advance enough to make more power without pinging - the higher octane resists pinging better. And there is limit to how much extra power you can make - you're not gonna get 30hp out of a timing advance unless your timing is set incorrectly to begin with.

 

Right. But I think if you poll the 5th Gen people who have had their timing advanced, you'll find that most felt they achieved an increase in performance.

For a Maxima, I doubt that anything above 93 octane would be beneficial. But an increase from the crap 91 octane we get here in CA to, say, 93 octane might be very beneficial. And given what a little Techron Concentrate does to eliminate my low rpm detonation, I'm pretty sure the detonation would go away as well with a slight increase in octane.

So let's cut to the chase. The Audi guys say there's a significant increase in performance when they add Toluene to their gasoline. Does anyone have experience in this area to either support or counter their assertion or are we going to sit here and continue to argue over something we obviously know nothing about?

 

Well you brought it up in the first place. How many people here do you think have experience with toluene. I bet you will get less than 1% of the max.org population that has experience with it.

Honestly I think between the cost, non boost, and hassle issue of obtaining the toluene there is not a benefit at all.

I am in So. Cal and have yet to experience any detonation with my advanced timing. Are you running your AC? I usually don't, only sometimes.

 

You know, since I got my timing advance a few weeks ago (6-8 ) Ive been runnin the A/C here in Phx both day and night and have gotten no pinging what so ever. I have always ran 91 octane, this stuff however I would use if I had an extra 3gal fuel cell just for the nitrous. Id make the ontane rating somewere in the 125-130 range and run that fuel with a wet kit but on normal steet, just keep your injectors clean and you should have no problem IMO.

 

All that tells me is that we may have something to learn.

I think you'd get some argument from those who have actually used toluene. And as far as the hassle of getting it is concerned, you should be able to find it in just about any paint store. It's an ordinary solvent.

I experience minor, low rpm detonation with the A/C off. It's possible that the detonation may be a hangover from the days of my leaky coil. I may have some carbon buildup in one of the cylinders that's causing it.

 

It appears that toluene may be more difficult to get my hands on than I had originally thought. Although it's a common solvent, it's no longer available at most paint stores. If anyone knows where I can find some, let me know. If it's not too expensive, I'll try it out in my Maxima.

Thanks.

 

The only place to get it here in Hawaii is at Sherman Williams. However you may need a commercial account to do so, as Toluene plays a major part in creating crystal methamphetamine. It's increasingly difficult to buy it in any amount smaller than 50 gallons, and if you buy 50 gallons Sherman Williams may have to report the sale to the DEA.

For most applications, Toulene is overkill and won't produce significant gains in power or increased milage. The only guys I know who use it are boosted or running completely built engines, which require a higher octane rating, close to race gas.

The other concern is that Toulene may be carcinogenic. This makes hadling it a lot more difficult. You have to premix the Toulene with gas to effect the desired ratio, which makes handling necessary.

Good luck with any experiments.

 

Good Info.

 

That is good information, and it pretty much turns me off to the idea of using toluene.

I checked with a friend of mine at work who does a little racing on his days off. Rather than use toluene, he directed me to a local Unocal station that sells 100 octane pump gas. It's not cheap at $4.70 per gallon, but I've done the math and 2 gallons per tankful will bring me up from 91 octane to 92 octane. We'll see if that's enough to cure my minor detonation problem.

 

Isn't toluene dry cleaning fluid? I think dry cleaners buy it by the drum. I used to buy spot remover at the grocery store that was pure toluene. Look for methylbenzene on the label. I think it's a 10-12oz can that looks like charcoal starter with the flip top thing...

 

Instead of paying $4.70 a gallon for 100 octane fuel, why not just try a bottle of Super104 octane booster or something that will raise your octane level 3-4 points for apprx the same price instead of paying that much for gas. Just s suggestion

 

Check the forced induction forums. I posted this at least 10 or so days ago. It really only works well for those with boost. We could carry a gallon or five with us if we found some seriously sh!tty gas somewhere and mix it in to help with the octane...

My buddy Bruce runs this stuff in his EVO. It definitely likes it...

 

Try a Porter Paints. That's where I can find some...

 

Those octane boosters only raise 93 octane by tenths of a point...like .2-.3

 

I'm pretty sure it's related to the Homebrew Octane Booster. You can make it pretty economical if you make a 128oz batch at a time.

Check out this site for info on how to mix up your own Octane Booster for the desired octane rating:
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html

WARNING: These chemicals are HIGHLY corrosive and will damage your fuel systems rubber/plastic parts over time, so think LONG AND HARD on whether it's worth it or not.

 

Really? Never knew that, but howcome it says 2-3 or whatever on the bottle. Unless there is a . I never saw

 

Yes, it's true. You'd need SEVERAL bottles to do anything.

104+ my azz.

 

Oh well, it was still a good idea (considering the stuff worked that is )

 

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html

Have fun!

 

make sure it's UNLEADED..most high octane fuels have lead in them. that's a no no on the max w/ O2 and cats.

 

Thanks, DanNY. I did check that out. Unocal sells several variants of their racing fuel. Their 100 octane and 104 octane are both unleaded. The rest are leaded. Here's the write-up on the 100 octane:

Competition 100 (unleaded) is designed for high performance streetcars, racecars, watercraft, motorcycles, etc. In fact, engines with compression ratios as high as 12:1 will benefit greatly from this clean-burning fuel. Controlled front-end volatility provides freedom from vapor lock when you're on the hottest tracks and roads. A sophisticated additive keeps port fuel injectors, carburetors and intake valves clean. This unique fuel, formulated for all engines, blends with any street gas, and is great for getting rid of knocks and pings, as well as anyone who happens to be on your tail.

 

Aviation Gas is actually cheaper than $4.70 a gallon, and it's a hell of a lot better burning IMHO. I think I pay in the low to mid $2 range for AVGAS...

Well, that's here in GA, I might add...

 

if i remember correctly there's something in jet fuel that won't work in cars.

 

I didn't say jet fuel, I said aviation gas Jet fuel is similar to a mixture of diesel and kerosene...aviation gas is 100 octane unleaded gasoline!

 

http://www.osbornauto.com/racing/race2avgas.htm

 

Hmmmm...that might be why I used it in my GTO...it was still a leaded automobile when I purchased it. The stuff I use now must be the 100 LL that's described in that writing...

 

I pumped 2 gallons of 100 octane Unocal into my gas tank and filled up with 91 octane Chevron Supreme. That brings my overall octane rating up to 92. My Maxima is running like a champ now. There's not so much as a hint of detonation at low rpms even with the A/C running. And the engine seems to be a little more responsive as well.

Obviously there's no reason to mess around with brewing up my own high-octane gasoline when I can pull into a Unocal station that happens to be on my way to work and pump 100 octane unleaded. AFAIC, the convenience factor alone is worth the additional cost.

 

I have never needed to try Tolulene because I live in Nascarville and can easily get my hands on 100 unleaded and 110 leaded fuels. A guy in my neighborhood uses toluene in his GN as a good way to increase his octane for high boost. One thing to consider when boosting your octane is that you're probably losing BTU's. Octane does not make power, the fuels do and Gasoline has a higher energy content than toluene. Diesel has about 30% more BTU's than gasoline which is one reason why Diesel engines get much better mileage.

 

Right. Octane, by definition, is the resistance to burn or detonation. The higher the rating, the slower the burn when ignited during the compression burn cycle of the piston. The higher octane allows for better control of burning for high compression engines. The objective is to match the correct octane rating of the gasoline to the engine design to ensure complete burning of the gasoline by the engine for maximum fuel economy and clean emissions.

(Source: http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm.)

 

That's definitey why my friends EVO likes toluene. He's already gotten it to produce over 25 PSi (on the engine), and it really makes a difference.

 

Part of the problem in selecting the correct octane is the ability of modern ECUs to adjust (within limits) to the burn characteristics of the gasoline. That's why it's possible for a 5th Gen Maxima to run 87 octane gasoline and not detonate.

Generally speaking, people should follow the manufacturer guidelines outlined in their owners manual for "recommended" octane ratings. In the case of a 5th Gen Maxima, the "recommended" octane rating is 91. But when people begin to modify their engines by adding exhausts, aftermarket intakes, ECU upgrades (including timing advances), forced induction, NOS, etc., it may become necessary to INCREASE the octane rating of the gasoline in order to slow the burn rate and reduce detonation. That seems to be the case with my engine. Increasing the octane rating from 91 to 92 appears to have eliminated the slight detonation I experience at low rpm when the ambient air rises above a certain temperature.