pmar

hmmm....don't get mad fellas but too little too late. The styling problem that arose with the 4th gen being out-of-date in 1998/1999 and the controversial styling of the 5th gen will not have been addressed even with the 2002 model. I personally was heartbroken when I saw the 2000 in late 1999--I had expected some kick-*** car like the concept Z, and that thing was just plain ugly. It can't grow on you, seriously. That style just doesn't grow on anyone.

260 hp, HID headlamps, six-speed, these are all things that have been readily available for 2 years by other makes. Still FWD and still the 5th gen styling. Now maybe, just maybe, if the price is under 20 for the GXE, the motor will be worth it. But what a mistake too from a Nissan perspective to offer the same stuff in each model designation. It's the Oldsmobile syndrome, why?? What exactly is a GLE? Why SE if it has the exact same powertrain as a GXE?

It's all about money. Without having to save money or seek extreme value there's really no market for Maximas. I get a bit frustrated seeing brand new ones for $18,999 in the paper at 5-7 dealerships every weekend. Wait til late summer, probably be 2 grand less. If that 2001 goes for under 17 brand-new in August I'll buy another for the heck of it.

pmar SE 5-speed 98

philpoe

iTrader: (4)

I'm curious to see where the 2002 Max will lineup.
250HP+ in a near lux sedan is only available on the TL-S and 300M anywhere near 30K or below (Bonneville SSEi may count as it has so much torque)
Add in a 6spd and only the S4 and A6 2.7T can come in at the $40K+ mark
looks aside (I think it needs work), it should be a winner if they don't get carried away with the price.

bigtexan7

well, that's one guy's opinion....
and for another...I like 'em.

Maximus97SE

You are getting hung up on a numbers game. You cannot compare the Max to the TL-s and the 300M because of the Max's lack of refinement in many areas, the top two being higher quality interiors, and better handling/ride quality. Even worse, you make it seem like a six-speed availability in the Max elevates it enough to be compared to the two Audis. Again, the Audis rewards the driver in many areas that the Max cannot. Buyers are not one-dimentional, never have, never will be. Except for the Camaro and Mustang buyers, maybe.

Let's call the 2002 Max like it is...it is in no-mans-land...sutck between a model that replaces it (Altima) and a next generation model(2003 Max).

philpoe

iTrader: (4)

The statement was made that you could get 260HP and 6spd in other makes. I said that you could only get that combination for $10K more in the form of the S4 and A6 2.7T.
If you just wanted 260HP for a number (today) and could live with an auto, the Acuras make a lot of sense, especially in a lease. If you like RWD and can live with an auto, the IS300 fits the bill. If you can handle Chryslers dealers and build quality rep, the 300M's there for you for a buy situation. In that price range, the I30 Touring is definitely worth a look and a Maxima GLE or SE costs less. If Nissan keeps the price stable and adds the power (there's no substantial cost increase in production of the engine), the I30 looks even better and the Maxima is a "bargain"

While I personally don't like the exterior of the Maxima, I don't find the interior to suffer too badly in comparison to the Acura and Chrysler (haven't seen a new Bonneville). Reviews of the Acura detract from interior pieces, btw, and some people prefer the firmer ride of the "sport" suspension.

The combination of attributes that attract many Maxima buyers (especially SE 5spds) is that it's a roomy, relatively powerful, sporty sedan, with a manual transmission (let alone a 6spd with helical diff), and "luxury" features (such as Bose) for a "reasonable" price. For that combo, it quickly boils down to the Maxima and the Passat (though many forget the Saab 9-3 SE). As far as being one dimensional, car buyers spend what they think that their combination of features is worth. Are Bentley, and Rolls Royce owners one dimensional?
The Maxima offers a combination that few others can or will have for that price range. The SE-R will be "more of a good thing".
In the future the Lexus IS300 will have a stick, and Chrysler may switch the 300M to RWD (and heaven forbid, bring out the Charger).
If you want the rewards of the Audi, pay more money. Why not just get an M5 and be done with it? Of course I'd prefer those cars, but I can't justify spending that much on those cars when I can be satisfied with what the Maxima offers well below $30K.

wdave

If the 02 260hp max really happens it will probably turn out to be the fastest max ever - and into the future too. When the shell is redesigned for 03 (or 04) you can bet on a signifigant weight gain which will offset the power. Expect the 02 to be a one year wonder. The sad thing is that it will probably still have the damned beam axle - note that all the news only mentions engine, transmission, diff and headlights.

Dave

Zam

I think ya'll have some good points.

Not to detract from the thread, but the Maxima is/has been the premier Nissan model. Why can't it compete with Acura, Lexus, BMW & Audi?

Price the SE in at $25k, fully loaded albeit the auto/side-airbags/sunroof/navigation and I'm there.

I personally am not very thrilled by the current Maxima's looks, but hell I drove a 99GSR for a year. I'll let my wife drive the purdy 4Runner. A nice suspension drop and decent wheels can make any car look good, even the 300M. Hell, I bet a set of 18" TE-37s on my Sonata will make it look good, err..umm... well decent.

The biggest issue I have with owning another Nissan is resale. I would have traded off my 96 several years ago, but I refuse to lose my ****. I'm hoping this new Nissan image will create a stronger market for the older models.

Maximus97SE

Nissan does not compete with Acura, Lexus, BMW and Audi in the US. Infiniti does.

Mike S.

Err....but at what cost? Were talking about a 20-30K car. NOT a 540i 6sp. The price probably isn't going to go up much.

Styling is COMPLETELY subjective. For christ sake how many people have bought 2K Chrysler Concordes. They look like fish out of water....literally.

Nissan is uping the ante and really putting out some great cars....and some even better ones in the near future. Don't take this personally, but lots of people have the attitude that nissan is screwing them over beacuse they are putting out a "better" car the next model year. Whoops..gues all those M3 owners are mad beacuse the new car has like 80hp more. Man....BMW should have just added 10hp each year to break em in slowly.

Mike S.

philpoe

iTrader: (4)

Here's where I think that Nissan/Infiniti may have made a error.
IMHO, there's not enough differentiation between a Maxima and an I30. If you compared the 2 cars and know that they're mostly the same, why spend the premium on the I30?
I30 sales must have been cannibalized by the Maxima since 96.

How many threads here have compared the Maxima to the CL/TL and IS300, but not the I30?

Ever since the Sentra SE in 98, the G20's a car with a questionable price premium. The Sentra SE-R and spec-V will certainly be attractive to badge-blind purchasers.

At least the ES300 makes it a _little_ bit hard to see the Camry within.

I wonder with the Z coming back if Infiniti will come back with a J35 RWD sedan or the like to compete with the Lexus GS

Zam

Why not? The A4 lists at $25k, the Acura at $28k-$30k, 325i at $30k, and the IS300 at $30k. I paid $25k for my 96(Auto GXE back in 95). Back when the 2k Maxima was a hot product, I'm willing to bet that people paid $30k for it.

When people go out to buy cars, they look at a price range. For instance my Maxima replacement range is $25k-$35k. That fits a wide range of cars. I doubt many people say "I'm going to buy an entry level, luxury 4 door sedan, with all the bells and whistles, but won't even consider a Maxima because it wears the lowly Nissan badge."

justmax

I tried to explain the same thing to Maximus earlier when I posted my thoughts on the '02 Max. Don't even bother. According to Maximus, people shopping for an entry level luxury sedan don't look at a Maxima because:

"Nissan does not compete with Acura, Lexus, BMW and Audi in the US. Infiniti does."

There's no other reason. Oh, by the way, Maximus, next time I go buy some weiners at the supermarket, I'll be sure to only look for Oscar Meyer and Ball Park. This is because I want to get a decent weiner and I know that the local brand doesn't even compete with them, even though they taste just as good and cost a little less. I know that sounds stupid, but it's the same thing on a much smaller scale.

I'm not flaming you Maximus, just pointing out that there's some room for argument in your "stone tablet of automotive competition".

justin

RussMaxManiac

Why get a 260hp Acura when you can get a 222 hp Maxima 5spd that will hand its ***? The acura is way over rated, and does not show the 260. It has 200hp at the wheels dyno proven, and its 300-400lb heavier than the current Maxima.

Shingles

Russ let me let you in on a seceret. A lot of folks here will buy a TL-S had it had an option for a manual. Let's face it, the TL is a better car(not straight line performance, but all other things factored in). Way over rated? how? Not everyone simply cares about how fast a car goes straight. I mean isn't is obvious that the car is good by the fact that it is the best selling near luxory model? Not to mention, most folks who buy the TL isn't going to care too much about how fast it drives between stop lights. The thing you can say is it's not your kind of car because it's not fast in a straight line. You can't say that the car is over rated or whatever simply because it's not your type of car.

It's great that you love the Maxima so much, but let's not shoot every car down because it's not nissan.

BTW, show me a dyno of a TL-S with only 200hp at the wheels.

-Shing

RussMaxManiac

Ask DaveB for the dyno. Also, The TL-S or the CL-S is only better in a few areas, interior design, comfort, and all the goodies you get. The looks are good, but still plain, it does not handle as good as the 5th gen either, or accelerate as good. So if people want performance that car is not it, but if people want more flush soft suspension luxury, then that is what they need to get.

Shingles

So let me see, you say the car is over rated, but you just basically said that every other area except straight line performance is better with the TL/CL. Also I am sure you are only quoting skip pad is worse in the TL/CL?? Yet you say the car is over rated? Let's not compare skip pad number... I can get a pinto to pull better skip pad numbers than the max by giving it better tires. Let's talk about slalom numbers: According to Motor Trend, the Maxima does the 600 ft slalom at 62 MPH. The NON Type S TL does it at 63.5 MPH. Sure the ultimate grip around a skip pad has the maxima at an advantage, but that's mostly the tires in play russ. So no, the maxima does not handle better.

-Shing

pmar

I truthfully have never met anyone who likes the way the 5th looks. It goes beyond being subjective. We all did it in college, went home with someone who may have had a good you-know-what but was fug**!!! Park the 5th gen next to a 3 or 5 series, or a TL or CL, or Civic, and there's no way anyone's gonna pick the Maxima 5th gen in the looks dept. Does it have something underneath that body? Yes it does.

Now Maxima does have a serious advantage though. A stripped GXE probably goes for only 2 grand more than a Honda Civic coupe. If Nissan starts offering a rebate to get those leftover 2001's to move, they may cost the same. I'm willing to drive a car that looks like the 5th gen and get the nice motor for the same price as a Civic. So let's hope the steep discounts start this summer.

RussMaxManiac

Yes the 5th gen does handle better. Shing, ACURA/HONDA is not GOD to all automotive handling. I saw many tests in magazines between the 2 cars, and been in a Acura TL-S, the car does not handle like the max, it has more body lean, and it is really way to soft. The max has less lean, responds quicker, and is a bit stiffer ride. I am going by test results, not by your opinions.

emax02

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, last I checked the Cl and TL Type S are quicker in straight line performance, stock VS Stock. Did I miss something? I just looked it a mag and the Tl Type-S did 0-60 in 6.2 and I think the 1/4 in 14.8{not sure about the 1/4 though}.

Shingles

Neither is nissan russ, and I never said Honda was. so get a grip. Show me your results. I will tell you where to find mine. www.motortrend.com. Get over it. This is not my opinion... it is tested numbers. Sorry you don't like the facts, but then again, you never ahve liked facts. You are going by subjective reviews. "It feels stiffer, blah blah blah". I posted you facts Russ, you know tested numbers? So please... go do your homework. Numbers don't lie(most of the time)...


-Shing

Shingles

although steep discount is nice, it kills resale value for a 1 to 2 year old discount. And for folks that actually take that into account(I personally do not), it's a big big turn off.

-Shing

Shingles

Here are the numbers:

TL non type s:
http://www.motortrend.com/mar99/miusa/acura.htm

Maxima SE:
http://www.motortrend.com/july99/nissan/techdata.html

-Shing

Zam

That's funny. I hate to get into these luxury nameplates vs lowly "regular" nameplates arguements.

Russell & Shingles: Isn't handling an issue that can be very subjective? On paper, it would appear that the TL-S trumps the Maxima in most aspects. It is hard for me to argue Russ's butt dyno/handling meter, but again that is very subjective.

I personally think the TL is a beautiful yet conservative car. The headrests are stunning(yes I've got a fetish for headrests) and the rest of the interior is comparable to the god-like Audi interior. It has Honda's proven suspension minus rear truck beam axle thingy. If the Acura were offered with a manual, the Maxima would be VERY hard to justify. All that without even considering Nissan's woefully inadequate resale value.

Shingles: You have too many toys, you should donate the S2000 to the official "Starving Zams of America Foundation Who Aren't Allowed to Buy Cool Cars"

Zam

Shingles

Zam:

Certainly the feel of a good handling car is very subjective. And that's actually one of the points I tried to make on a later post... in that quotes like "the car feels firm" etc are all subjective things about a car's handling. That's not to say that a car that feels like it handles better is a bad thing though. But to say that car x is a better handling car vs car y simply on feel is a little deceiving IMO.

The Maxima certainly has it's merit, one of which is being a hell of a bargin for the price. But like you said, comparing luxury plates to a "regular" plate is some what apples to oranges. I would have much less of a problem comparing Accords to Maximas as after all, they are meant to be in competition.

I think though ultimately, it's not that easy to say you can't compare the Maxima to X because it's a luxury car. Because as car enthuists, that's what we do. But as car enthuists, we need to also need to know the "limits". We need to know when a car is fast, is better, is worse, etc etc. And in the end, that's my only point.


-Shing