RAZ76

iTrader: (8)

Yes Santa comes through(not thru) the chimney, always has ..duh
By all means, you have the right to try whatever you like but why not try something new that no one else has tried before. Why beat the dead horse over and over. It didn't make a difference then and it will not make a difference now. I tried this little experiment about 7 years ago before Mythbusters ever got the idea and it didn't work then, didn't work for them with better technology then me and it wont work now. That's all I'm saying.

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

I will pull up some figures in regards to the results. My wet cell, which you will be lucky enough to view once I dig it out and take a pic, is out of commission. I disregarded my electrolyte composition early on and provided a very terrible situation for stainless steel.

So I am waiting to make a better one to save money on future road trips. I will add though, that the cell worked well even though the steel was rusted badly; I have stopped using it as I have accumulated many bottles of rusty water contaminated with Chromium (the protective layer of the stainless steel which makes it resistant to rust and other deformities).

Everything I have learned has come from fuel-saver.org

The fuel-saver forums are much like these: a very open and supportive community of people with a common goal/interest. Even though the proprietors of the forums also sell fuel saving technology, they are supportive even if you don't buy their stuff. I have purchased a few things from them, and they have been incredible when support was necessary, and answer any questions to no end to insure you can use the technology effectively.

mist max2000

iTrader: (16)

well FWIW,.. not trying to start an argument,..

but gas 7 years ago is alot different then gas today,.. todays gas has about 10% ethanol in most places,.. so you might get different results today as the acetone might have an effect on the ethanol in the fuel.... just food for thought...

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

Here are the two charts I have for the 2001 Mercury Sable I drove around earlier this year. It may be important to note, the sable has a 3 Liter V6 much like the vg30 of the early 3rd Gens. Yet one could argue all factors of the differences that would influence fuel consumption........

The noticeable difference in MPG is apparent by studying the information. The first chart is a compilation of the data recorded previous to the installation of the HHO fuel cell. The second, naturally, is of post installation information.





(the lower right number is the one that matters, but it may not be easy to see because of the signature - 28.72)

I am unsure of the amount of amps it used on average. I imagine it was very high as the design would encourage this (wet cell vs. dry cell). Also, the amount of rust bloom would hint that amperage was over the top. From my research on fuel-saver.org, heat and amps go hand in hand and both could be a huge contributor to rust bloom in the electrolysis environment. As stated previously in another post, it is apparent through info on the fuel saver forums, the mixture of baking soda and vinegar creates an incredibly detrimental environment to stainless steel, which is problematic to HHO production.

The simplicity and effectiveness of this technology is awe striking. I have cheered the fuel meter needle so many times because it seems stuck in place. I wish i could create or find a device that could alter or convert the sensor voltage reading into a recognizable number or figure that would enable me to know exactly how many gallons of gas are in the tank. It would make calculations much easier as it is almost necessary to figure out how many gallons the car used within the miles driven with that gas.

Here is a link to the design and information of what is known as a Tero Cell. These fall under the dry-cell category, which are typically 3 times more efficient than wet cells. If you are a DIY person, these plans explain everything you will need to make your own cell, for a very affordable amount, and I will use them when i have the resources to do so. If you are new to this technology and have an interest, READ THIS.

http://www.umpquaenergy.com/hydrogen.../tero_cell.pdf

RAZ76

iTrader: (8)

I doubt it but like I said, it's your right to try things that thousands before you have with no results. Think of me of the cheat card that has the answeres on the other side. I just gave you the answer to your research by saving you time, effort and all of the above.

Professor

iTrader: (4)

Downfall to acetone is over time it will eat the seals and if your not careful it can burn holes in the pistons.

SLASH

Just wanted to say that i had a friend who tried this with his 1999 Tahoe a couple of years ago when gas was pushing $4 a gallon. He recorded gains of around 25% in gas mileage over the course of about a 2 month period and 10-15 tanks of fuel. Only reason he stopped doing this was the concern over the acetone hurting the vehicle in some way over time... fuel lines etc.

After hearing this my brother had to give it a try as well. Similar story... about 20% or so increase in mpg but he only ran it through a few tanks due to concerns about the effects of the acetone as well.

If in fact you did try this yourself it is hard for me to believe you experienced 0% increase in mpg.

Stereodude

I'm sure you're all violating the laws of physics.

More likely subconsciously your driving style has changed accounting for the improved numbers. Placebo effect++

bryan163

iTrader: (2)

I put an amp probe on mine and found that I could control the amperage by using more or less electrolyte concentration. I kept mine around 25 amps to avoid overloading my relay. I was running at 12 volts, but a reduction is needed to make the electrodes last longer.

RAZ76

iTrader: (8)

I never said I experienced 0% increase but I did not find anything too spectacular worth damaging my car over some gas. If gas is such a factor, people should look at more efficient cars already on the market. Someone already mentioned some of the damage resulting from this. Just trying to save the guy his car from possible major damage, that's all. I care less how much gas you guys are saving. When I care about a few miles per gallon, I will buy an electric car or a more economical car. Maximas already get pretty decent gas mileage compared to the competition.

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

Surely, you are correct in that statement. The Tero cell uses a 5th of that to achieve the same results, more than likely. High amperage isn't a positive aspect in an electolysis environment as stated in the previous posts of mine and yours: you get rusty, nasty, and dangerous conditions.

What did you use for your electrolyte?

bryan163

iTrader: (2)

I used sodium chloride.

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

Well, I would stop using that as soon as you could.......... Sodium chloride can be very damaging as chlorine is expelled as a bi-product from the electrolysis process. I found a great helpful guide on fuel-saver.org which follows.

"1) When an electrolyser is run, it splits water into its component parts, hydrogen and oxygen. Water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. So when they split you get the two gasses in a fixed 2:1 ratio.
2) The function of the electrolyte is to increase the electrical conductivity of the water because pure water is not that great a conductor. There are many substances which will do this, but some are better than others. Desirable characteristics are that it have a high solubility in water and that it not produce any undesirable by-products when electrolysed.
3) The purpose in adding alcohols (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol etc) is to depress the freezing point of the electrolyte so that it does not freeze in cold weather. These also reduce the electrical conductivity of the electrolyte, so reducing the current that the electrolyser takes.
4) Some of the electrolytes that people have tried :

• Table Salt
• Baking Soda
• Vinegar
• Citric Acid / Koolade
• Hydrogen Peroxide
• Sodium Hydroxide and/or Potassium Hydroxide

Table salt is sodium chloride, and in an electrolyser it splits into sodium and chlorine gas. The sodium recombines with water to form sodium hydroxide and hydrogen gas. The chlorine and hydrogen gas mix is then fed into the engine and burned, releasing some undoubtedly-nasty pollutants as the chlorine combines with the other combustion products. Chlorine will also attack aluminium alloy parts, corroding them. A bubbler filled with sodium hydroxide solution may help to cut the chlorine level a little but will not get rid of it all. IMHO a very bad choice for an electrolyte, as would be any other chlorides.

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, formula NaHCO3. In an electrolyser this decomposes into sodium hydroxide and CO2 gas. Whatever effect the added CO2 has on engine performance can only be detrimental. There are also legions of posts from people who have complained about baking soda rotting their 316 plates. IMHO another poor choice.

Vinegar is acetic acid. It appears to be stable under electrolysis but it has relatively poor electrical conductivity. If you can tolerate the need for larger plates to compensate for this then vinegar may be OK. Best to use white vinegar or try and get some pure acetic acid if possible.

Citric acid is the organic acid derived from citrus fruit, and I am reasonably sure that it is the citric acid in koolade that is mostly responsible fir its electrical conductivity. Like acetic acid, it appears to be stable under electrolysis but is also a poor electrical conductor. Koolade also contains other salts ('electrolytes'), some of which may pollute the gas stream.

Hydrogen peroxide decomposes under electrolysis into water and oxygen. It will go some way to fulfil CJ's wish to twiddle the hydrogen/oxygen ratio, but the hydrogen peroxide will be consumed in the process, so needing to be replenished steadily to maintain electrical conductivity and keep gas production and composition steady. IMHO fun, but ultimately a bit complicated.

Sodium hydroxide / Potassium Hydroxide. Not a lot to choose between them, both are very good and both have been industry standards for water electrolysis electrolyte for decades. Both are stable and do not produce any nasty by-products when electrolysed. Problems are that they are strongly corrosive and they do slowly erode stainless steel electrode plates. IMHO, the best choice.

There are a few others that I had thought may be worth trying out, but I have not been able to find out much about their properties in an electrolyser : sulphuric acid, nitric acid, phosphoric acid, sodium/potassium nitrates, suphates and phosphates, calcium hydroxide. I'm sure there are others too."

I hope this may encourage better opinions/results. Sodium hydroxide is readily available at your local hardware store via "red devil" lye drain cleaner. I use Potassium hydroxide, when my unit is in operation...............

The6spdMax

iTrader: (23)

Keep us updated Jay... Thanks.

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

I understand your stance in regards to damaging your vehicle, and/or stepping outside of the lines defined by the auto maker and their engineers. All we are attempting to do is provide efficiency. When an engine runs more efficiently, it last longer, it has more power, it hurts the environment less, and the negative effects are non-existent (provided the method of providing greater efficiency isn't damaging your components).

The role of the hydrogen produced in the fuel cells shown and the acetone technique discussed is to make gasoline do more. They aren't substantial, stand alone, make it or break it addtions. They are merely fuel additives that allow the engine to get more out of the fuel it is designed to use. In the case of the hydrogen: the hydrogen gas is much more volatile than gasoline, therefore as it is ignited, it encourages the combustibility of the gasoline that discharged into the air stream in which the hydrogen is a part of, and the result is a staggering increase in actual fuel igntion. With less fuel escaping the combustion process, the o2 sensors are deprived of the foul gases disperesed as a biproduct of under used gas, and following the sensors in the stream, the catylitic converter also will be harmed less by the more efficient fuel consumption.

The technologies used to gain more efficiancy are simple and well known. Hydrogen fuell cells were patented before automobiles made their way into mainstream culture. It is easy to see why our vehicles today are inefficient in the perspecitve of our economy and how it is based upon consumerism, not sustainibility. Auto makers don't initiate this technology into their design for simple reasons: people aren't accepting of technolgy that requires more maintenance than what they are used to, it may seem complex, and the auto industry is contolled and vaguely defined with labels. People who want a fuel efficient vehicle these days are opting out of conventional design by spending a prety penny on hybridsa and other new vehicles. Those who are looking for power don't always care for those two large number on the info sheet int he window, they are more than likely searching the finer print for hp and torque ratings, etc. Most people emphasize fuel efficient design with new vehicles, when in fact, we can take older vehicles, especially non- fuel injected, and make them just as, if not more efficient thatn some newer models which only contribute to the consumerist wave our economy relies on.

I may sound conceptually naive, and my opinions of people and our econmy may be devoid of concepts that will further influence my ability to tell you of my perspective. My main goal is to show people that we can use old technology on our newer vehicles to make them run forever. If any one learns anything from my babbling, please look into what is possible as the potential we have to help ourselves and each other is endless.

nalc

iTrader: (11)

And in the conclusion, he discusses the fact that it doesn't have nearly enough capacity or efficiency to run a car motor.

ve30max

iTrader: (2)

I am not referring to automobiles that use hydrogen as the sole fuel source. They are out there and even though the technology relating the hydrogen fuel cell, that I am involved with, to the ones used in producing gas that a car can run off of is almost identical, but the scale of the production is immensely different. A car that runs off of hydrogen requires alot of gas, but it is readily available through solar, wind, hydro, and thermal power. Check out this video:

"Who's Killing the Hydrogen Car?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX2RxlXCZKA

It is possible to revamp an automobile to run solely on hydrogen. The possibilities with hydrogen are endless as it is one of the most abundant resources we have. Any use of it in a combustion setting will only have the bi-product of water= no harmful emissions. Thank you for the reply, sincerely, and I hope to continue talking about the subject. I only hope to inform and encourage positive change for the greater community.

Stereodude

Hold on... Let me put on my Aluminum Deflector Beanie before I watch that video so the oil companies won't be able to read my thoughts while I'm watching.

bryan163

iTrader: (2)

Stereodude

You are now cleared for viewing. Enjoy your clip.

bryan163

iTrader: (2)

That was actually a pretty cool video. I have always believed the government was suppressing this technology and now i can safely discuss it without the risk of a brain scan. All kidding aside, if cars can run on hydrogen and hydrogen can be extracted from water, why are auto manufacturers not taking advantage of this simple solution to high fuel prices? It would be great for the planet to, seeing as there are no emissions.

mist max2000

iTrader: (16)

not to keep straying OT but.. BMW seems to be ahead of the the curve,..

THE FUTURE--->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbaOX2UAs0


and back on topic.. OP .. What were your results?

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

^ no spam in sig or else youre risking bannage

RAZ76

iTrader: (8)

Can you elaborate more on your answer or do yo need more time to google next answer??

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/new...00069_Acetone/

Nelsito65

...Looking at his other posts, I think advertising was his intention...
Do I smell...???

VincentXero86

Do some special wireing

05SmokeSE

One sure way to increase your gas mileage is to use ethanol-free gasoline.

It's not easy to find gas without 10% ethanol in it anymore, but it is still available in places.

To see if a pure gas station is available near you, go here:

http://pure-gas.org/

Your mileage will definitely improve running on pure gas.