Kinetix Intake? You make up your mind...
11-09-2007, 09:28 AM
#1
Kinetix Intake? You make up your mind...
I will emphasize again that we will beat any price - advertised or unadvertised - on the Kinetix intake.
There are different perspectives on the Kinetix intake manifold. We've sold a bunch of these to Maxima and Altima owners (let's not make assumptions based on other cars) and they tell us there's power made on the top end but they either don't make power, or lose a little on the bottom end. Nothing surprising about this, with a single runner design.
We'd be willing to help sponsor a dyno test on a customer's car, under our supervision (in Tucson) so we can make sure everything's done correctly. Its not practical for a vendor to buy an IM and dyno it - we'd have to sell dozens to make our money back, given the very thin profit margin. Otherwise, its up to the buyer to do their due diligence.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Serving the Maxima community since 1997!
There are different perspectives on the Kinetix intake manifold. We've sold a bunch of these to Maxima and Altima owners (let's not make assumptions based on other cars) and they tell us there's power made on the top end but they either don't make power, or lose a little on the bottom end. Nothing surprising about this, with a single runner design.
We'd be willing to help sponsor a dyno test on a customer's car, under our supervision (in Tucson) so we can make sure everything's done correctly. Its not practical for a vendor to buy an IM and dyno it - we'd have to sell dozens to make our money back, given the very thin profit margin. Otherwise, its up to the buyer to do their due diligence.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Serving the Maxima community since 1997!
Last edited by Cattman; 11-12-2007 at 08:01 PM.
11-10-2007, 08:26 AM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,898
that's what i'm talking about.. when i get my kinetix IM, i'm buying from you brian.. it only makes sense since people are so hesitant about buying this thing without seeing a non-kinetix dyno.. i really believe this will help your business
11-10-2007, 09:57 AM
#6
I don't want my dyno offer to seem like a hollow promise, but I need to be clear that carrying this out depends on finding a willing Kinetix customer within driving distance of Tucson, or perhaps in Phoenix. However, we don't have that many local customers, so I think we'll be lucky to find a volunteer.
I'll also just toss out that a basic before-and-after dyno comparison of the Kinetix IM will tell part of the story, but this is the sort of part that may require fuel tuning (particularly with this engine/ECU) to maximize its potential. A dyno session will be useful, but I think we need to see some real-life results from a few fuel tuning sessions to have a complete picture of its performance capabilities.
Brian
I'll also just toss out that a basic before-and-after dyno comparison of the Kinetix IM will tell part of the story, but this is the sort of part that may require fuel tuning (particularly with this engine/ECU) to maximize its potential. A dyno session will be useful, but I think we need to see some real-life results from a few fuel tuning sessions to have a complete picture of its performance capabilities.
Brian
11-10-2007, 04:04 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: alta loma ca 91737
Posts: 202
hey brian next time im going to flagstaff ill make it a point to drop down and pay ya a visit either for the dyno w/kinetix or just to thank ya in person for the exhaust im soon to getting
11-10-2007, 05:15 PM
#9
Brian.. i removed your section of your post that takes an issue of other Vendors... we have a very close nit community here which you have been apart of longer than I, however lets try to keep things fair among each other.
11-10-2007, 09:02 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,898
I don't want my dyno offer to seem like a hollow promise, but I need to be clear that carrying this out depends on finding a willing Kinetix customer within driving distance of Tucson, or perhaps in Phoenix. However, we don't have that many local customers, so I think we'll be lucky to find a volunteer.
I'll also just toss out that a basic before-and-after dyno comparison of the Kinetix IM will tell part of the story, but this is the sort of part that may require fuel tuning (particularly with this engine/ECU) to maximize its potential. A dyno session will be useful, but I think we need to see some real-life results from a few fuel tuning sessions to have a complete picture of its performance capabilities.
Brian
I'll also just toss out that a basic before-and-after dyno comparison of the Kinetix IM will tell part of the story, but this is the sort of part that may require fuel tuning (particularly with this engine/ECU) to maximize its potential. A dyno session will be useful, but I think we need to see some real-life results from a few fuel tuning sessions to have a complete picture of its performance capabilities.
Brian
11-12-2007, 06:44 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
Funny!! i dynoed with it over a month ago!!!!!
11-12-2007, 09:36 PM
#13
JP's dyno on his 5.5gen turned out quite poorly, with big losses on the bottom end, and little gain on the top, so he took the part back off his car.
I'm baffled by this. If I had 2 or 3 other customers telling me this, I'd probably drop the part like a hot rock, but JP's experience contrasts dramatically with other customers that have seen measureable and consistent improvements in their race results. These are guys that race once or twice a week - 1/4 mile, autocross, open track - and they're very in touch with their cars. I'm not saying this to contrast them with JP (his racing pedigree is very solid and I don't question his judgement in any way), just to point out that they're not imagining the IM performance on their cars.
So, we've got several customers that are very pleased (or at least they were when they spoke with me), several we've gotten no feedback from, and one customer who is definitely not satisfied. This mix of experiences is part of the reason we're more than willing to take a Kinetix-buying customer down to our local dyno shop and supervise the before and after runs, I'd really like to prove this to myself and have some data I can personally stand behind.
Brian
I'm baffled by this. If I had 2 or 3 other customers telling me this, I'd probably drop the part like a hot rock, but JP's experience contrasts dramatically with other customers that have seen measureable and consistent improvements in their race results. These are guys that race once or twice a week - 1/4 mile, autocross, open track - and they're very in touch with their cars. I'm not saying this to contrast them with JP (his racing pedigree is very solid and I don't question his judgement in any way), just to point out that they're not imagining the IM performance on their cars.
So, we've got several customers that are very pleased (or at least they were when they spoke with me), several we've gotten no feedback from, and one customer who is definitely not satisfied. This mix of experiences is part of the reason we're more than willing to take a Kinetix-buying customer down to our local dyno shop and supervise the before and after runs, I'd really like to prove this to myself and have some data I can personally stand behind.
Brian
Last edited by Cattman; 11-12-2007 at 09:40 PM.
11-19-2007, 04:18 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
I dynoed both ways, One for Cattmans notes, and tuned for me!
11-19-2007, 07:26 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,296
tuned it was running way rich around 4.6krpm. After tuning and tweaking in other spot i gained somewhere around 10whp, But was still 1hp less than stock manifold without a tune and over 20wtq less than stock. I dont have the exact numbers in front of me so dont quote me on this yet.
11-20-2007, 02:25 PM
#21
That makes sense about the rich thing. Every power mod that's proven to make hp, causes the car to run lean. That means the mod promotes more airflow. since this thing caused the untuned motor to run rich, it would appear it caused a LOSS of airflow.
Brian, I watch the Z and G forums fairly close. Honestly I haven't come across more than 1 or 2 guys even commenting on any sort of power gain. Much less offering any type of dyno referenced proof.
I HAVE come across guys that are happy with the mod. I imagine for the bling factor. One guy knew it wasn't a power adder but had the thing for show purposes.
Brian, I watch the Z and G forums fairly close. Honestly I haven't come across more than 1 or 2 guys even commenting on any sort of power gain. Much less offering any type of dyno referenced proof.
I HAVE come across guys that are happy with the mod. I imagine for the bling factor. One guy knew it wasn't a power adder but had the thing for show purposes.
tuned it was running way rich around 4.6krpm. After tuning and tweaking in other spot i gained somewhere around 10whp, But was still 1hp less than stock manifold without a tune and over 20wtq less than stock. I dont have the exact numbers in front of me so dont quote me on this yet.
11-21-2007, 11:03 AM
#23
A mod that improves airflow can easily cause the engine to run rich. Depending on the mod, the increased flow without corresponding changes in IAT can cause the ECU to think it's seeing something unusual and richen the mixture to compensate.
So, on that untuned engine with the Kinetix IM, the ECU might just have been overcompensating.
As with any significant breathing mod, every car might respond differently. So, you definitely should do a tune with it.
Last edited by d00df00d; 11-21-2007 at 11:07 AM.
11-23-2007, 06:35 PM
#24
To me, if you need to "tune" to see ANY benefit from a product it isn't worth the time or money. A/f changes on their own don't really affect power a whole lot in the n/a arena anyway. Ignition timing is where real power is made.
11-26-2007, 09:52 AM
#25
I haven't see a mod that increases power and caused the car to run rich. Not on a nissan. Can you give me an example? Headers, high flow cats, intakes all increase air flow. The ecu CANNOT compensate at WOT conditions. Can you explain to me how an ecu can richen the mixture on a closed loop WOT condition?
I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that this mod actually did anything to increase power when the dyno sheet plainly shows otherwise. They did do a tune. And the best they could to was get it back to stock power (almost
)
Not too sure where you are going with this post but you aren't make any sense from what I read
I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that this mod actually did anything to increase power when the dyno sheet plainly shows otherwise. They did do a tune. And the best they could to was get it back to stock power (almost
)Not too sure where you are going with this post but you aren't make any sense from what I read
...Not always.
A mod that improves airflow can easily cause the engine to run rich. Depending on the mod, the increased flow without corresponding changes in IAT can cause the ECU to think it's seeing something unusual and richen the mixture to compensate.
So, on that untuned engine with the Kinetix IM, the ECU might just have been overcompensating.
As with any significant breathing mod, every car might respond differently. So, you definitely should do a tune with it.
A mod that improves airflow can easily cause the engine to run rich. Depending on the mod, the increased flow without corresponding changes in IAT can cause the ECU to think it's seeing something unusual and richen the mixture to compensate.
So, on that untuned engine with the Kinetix IM, the ECU might just have been overcompensating.
As with any significant breathing mod, every car might respond differently. So, you definitely should do a tune with it.
11-26-2007, 09:55 AM
#26
On the G and Zs, if you increase the breathing mods to a point where it causes the car to run lean during WOT, then the engine starts to see some ping and the ign curves get pulled back. Getting a reflash to correct this along with some ign mods, typically nets you another 5-10-15 hp depending on the level of modification before the reflash
11-26-2007, 11:22 AM
#27
I don't understand why that happens. In the past, higher MAF voltage = higher IPW based on predetermined maps. Why these new Nissan ECU's are unable to add more fuel to match is beyond me. 
11-27-2007, 02:17 PM
#28
11-28-2007, 01:43 PM
#31
You made a statement that makes absolutely no sense one or more levels.
Asked you to back it up with an example. But none was given or will be given. Because backing up ridiculous statements are almost impossible.
Go right ahead and try though. I'm not failing at all. I'm here patiently waiting for you to try to back up what you say. That's entertaining.
I'll even requote you to refresh your memory:
Really? When? Example?
Really? How? Example?
So a "breather" mod designed to increase flow at the same intake air temp will cause the ecu to richen up the a/f to the point of being rich?? Exactly how? Example? Should be easy to give one as it's easily done. Even though I haven't read of this happening on the numerous boards I've been on.
How? Why would it "overcompensate" for anything? There's less airflow. Your statements require to you prove there was MORE airflow and that the ecu caused the engine to run rich. But the hp levels PLUMMETED. Since an engine is an airpump and the more air you move equates to more hp, how does the dyno graphs that show LESS hp than before prove your point in the least? Especially when AFTER the tune to the proper a/f ratios, the hp wasn't even back to STOCK levels??
Flail? Right.
Asked you to back it up with an example. But none was given or will be given. Because backing up ridiculous statements are almost impossible.
Go right ahead and try though. I'm not failing at all. I'm here patiently waiting for you to try to back up what you say. That's entertaining.
I'll even requote you to refresh your memory:
Originally Posted by d00df00d
...Not always.
...Not always.
A mod that improves airflow can easily cause the engine to run rich.
Depending on the mod, the increased flow without corresponding changes in IAT can cause the ECU to think it's seeing something unusual and richen the mixture to compensate.
So, on that untuned engine with the Kinetix IM, the ECU might just have been overcompensating.
Flail? Right.
11-28-2007, 01:49 PM
#32
For the record, IAT sensors are out of the loop regarding a/f ratios as far as nissan's are concerned. The MAF sensor measures what it says it does, MASS AIR FLOW. It inherently takes both volume and density into consideration.
11-28-2007, 02:18 PM
#34
What I was talking about was based on what I'd been hearing about other cars (new-ish STIs IIRC). But I guess that doesn't apply here. Thanks for clearing that up.
11-30-2007, 02:03 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
on 5.5gens, good headers (cattman, hotshot, modified OBX) are NOTORIOUS for making the car run rich.
/argument
/argument
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