FI vs. NA
04-20-2006, 08:40 AM
#1
SC vs. 3.5L
This debate stemmed from Chris's thread that we whored up and hijacked regretfully, lol. Anyway, I'm still pretty firm in my statement: "3.5L can't outrun an SC, prove me wrong".
I guess all questions, comments, points could go in here. As usual, this debate has happened before but with new gadgets, technology, and ideas, the gap between NA and FI closes.
I'd say SC wins just on ET
SC 11.9
3.5L 12.2?
I guess all questions, comments, points could go in here. As usual, this debate has happened before but with new gadgets, technology, and ideas, the gap between NA and FI closes.
I'd say SC wins just on ET
SC 11.9
3.5L 12.2?
04-20-2006, 08:52 AM
#2
Man you keep changing your story around to fit your needs. At first your where talking about beating any 3.5L swapped 4th gen running only 7psi and missing 4th gear on purpose. Now you are pulling turbo/nitrous cars into the mix which wasn't in the debate to start with. Look up SC ONLY times and find one that beats a 12.8 then we will go from there. Remember the 12.8 was run without any internal mods just bolt ons and a little massage work to the manifold. Once 96sleeper gets the timing right, he will be running mid 12's all day long on sticky tires.
A modded 3.0L SC'ed car will not outrun a fully modded NA 3.5L car at the track both running on the same tires. It will be close but I would give the nod to the NA car, the SC'ed car will out trap the NA car but the peaky power band isn't the greatest for the track.
A modded 3.0L SC'ed car will not outrun a fully modded NA 3.5L car at the track both running on the same tires. It will be close but I would give the nod to the NA car, the SC'ed car will out trap the NA car but the peaky power band isn't the greatest for the track.
04-20-2006, 08:57 AM
#3
taken from Chris's thread...
Originally Posted by Blu←
When you beat a 12.8@108 non cammed 3.5l without having to use nitrous then come back and talk, until then don't make these statements.
Originally Posted by TJ_Max
Oh and no problem, just get me a list of ALL the mods he did to get there, i'll do it and just run 7psi on top of it all. But according to your theory he'd still be the faster vehicle. 
Originally Posted by Blu←
you will not get anywhere near a 12.8 or 108mph at 7psi, you really do need to do more research before making statements like this. His mods are modified stock manifold, raised rev limit, headers/exhaust, homemade maf housing and tuning. Less than $2000 spent on everything including all the dyno time.
04-20-2006, 09:04 AM
#4
Originally Posted by Blu←
Man you keep changing your story around to fit your needs. At first your where talking about beating any 3.5L swapped 4th gen running only 7psi and missing 4th gear on purpose. Now you are pulling turbo/nitrous cars into the mix which wasn't in the debate to start with. Look up SC ONLY times and find one that beats a 12.8 then we will go from there. Remember the 12.8 was run without any internal mods just bolt ons and a little massage work to the manifold. Once 96sleeper gets the timing right, he will be running mid 12's all day long on sticky tires.
A modded 3.0L SC'ed car will not outrun a fully modded NA 3.5L car at the track both running on the same tires. It will be close but I would give the nod to the NA car, the SC'ed car will out trap the NA car but the peaky power band isn't the greatest for the track.
A modded 3.0L SC'ed car will not outrun a fully modded NA 3.5L car at the track both running on the same tires. It will be close but I would give the nod to the NA car, the SC'ed car will out trap the NA car but the peaky power band isn't the greatest for the track.
LOL, and what "massaging" is that to the manifold?
04-20-2006, 09:05 AM
#5
Originally Posted by TJ_Max
This is SR20DEN we are talking about or 96 sleeper? I know one of them has more work than that, cutout, widened TB, etc.
04-20-2006, 09:13 AM
#6
Originally Posted by TJ_Max
I never said 7psi missing 4th gear on purpose. The comment that got everyone started up was "I beat anything with a 3.5L in it" Meaning 3.5L Maximas, 4th, 5th or 6th gen, with a 10psi pulley. It wasn't to be cocky in any way, it was more of a question as to why people swap in that motor instead of boosting the 3.0. That's what started all this. I argued that the SC had more potential off the bat. Just throw in a 12psi pulley and be done with it all. This was all to my understanding.
LOL, and what "massaging" is that to the manifold?
LOL, and what "massaging" is that to the manifold?
You have another thing coming if you think 10psi with a vortech blower will get the job done against a NA 3.5 modded and tuned at the track.
There is no reason to get cocky I've already tried it and my SC'ed car making 320whp at the time really didn't impress me against SR20DEN's 260whp NA car. Once again area under the curve > peaky SC HP.
There is only so far you can go with a SC'ed Maxima unless you start dumping loads of money into it. I know from experience trust me.
04-20-2006, 09:14 AM
#7
a 7 psi s/c max with no other work done will run low to mid 14's thats it.a 3.5 is more than capable of hitting those numbers. i ran a 3.0 S/C CL running 6lbs and i was 7lbs. i murdered him off the line and at at highway speeds and he swore i was juicing him. so in front of meccanoble, liqidvenom and maxboogie i showed him the bottle and it was disconnected. eitherway i think the 3.5 will give both a serious run.
04-20-2006, 09:55 AM
#9
Originally Posted by Blu←
For reference both being 5 speed cars:
A stock 3.0 with a stillen setup on 7psi will run high 13's at best
A 4th gen with a stock 3.5 swap only will run mid-high 13's
A stock 3.0 with a stillen setup on 7psi will run high 13's at best
A 4th gen with a stock 3.5 swap only will run mid-high 13's
I need to learn how to drive.
04-20-2006, 10:10 AM
#10
TJ, would you like to care for a wager? I'm installing the 3.5 early summer, and you'll still be on the 3.0, but with S/C. I'll bet you a dollar i'll edge you out at the track.
and NO JUICE.
and NO JUICE.
04-20-2006, 10:13 AM
#11
Originally Posted by tavarish
TJ, would you like to care for a wager? I'm installing the 3.5 early summer, and you'll still be on the 3.0, but with S/C. I'll bet you a dollar i'll edge you out at the track.
and NO JUICE.
and NO JUICE.
You're on! But make it $5, I only run for big bucks. LOL.
Go over the "rules". What psi? I can't just turn boost up or down though, remember that.
04-20-2006, 10:24 AM
#12
Originally Posted by TJ_Max
You're on! But make it $5, I only run for big bucks. LOL.
Go over the "rules". What psi? I can't just turn boost up or down though, remember that.
Go over the "rules". What psi? I can't just turn boost up or down though, remember that.
04-20-2006, 10:26 AM
#13
Originally Posted by tavarish
use whatever pulley you want. If you win, I wanna see by how much. And if I win, i'll teach you how to do the 3.5 swap.
. You going to Nissan day on June 24th?
04-20-2006, 10:30 AM
#14
Originally Posted by tavarish
use whatever pulley you want. If you win, I wanna see by how much. And if I win, i'll teach you how to do the 3.5 swap.
04-20-2006, 10:34 AM
#15
Originally Posted by C MAX
are you talking just the 3.5 swap and nothing else? any size pulley would be a disadvantage cause if he ran a 14lb pulley vs a 7lb pulley, that is two different ball games. when it goes down i have to be there so i can film it.
04-20-2006, 12:10 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Nismo3112
I am sure a 3.0 with a 2.87 pulley would edge out a bolt on 3.5 though.
04-20-2006, 12:20 PM
#23
This is strictly my opinion so no talking ish.
I think that most of the people who have done the 3.5 swap have been more track oriented people, therefore they do more track prep(weight removal, power steering and a/c removed, slicks, etc.). People with s/c tend to either be newbs who want to go fast(which i was and kinda am still) or gearheads who dont go to the track much and are interested in tinkering.
to summ it up we see more impressive times from the 3.5 swap because of both the car prep and the 3.5 better torque curve.
I think that most of the people who have done the 3.5 swap have been more track oriented people, therefore they do more track prep(weight removal, power steering and a/c removed, slicks, etc.). People with s/c tend to either be newbs who want to go fast(which i was and kinda am still) or gearheads who dont go to the track much and are interested in tinkering.
to summ it up we see more impressive times from the 3.5 swap because of both the car prep and the 3.5 better torque curve.
04-20-2006, 12:21 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Blu←
. I have yet to see a SC'ed setup run mid 12's on boost alone no matter what the car made power wise on the dyno.
04-20-2006, 12:36 PM
#26
Originally Posted by pawnstar12
3.5's can boogie especially when its with the company of a 6 speed. i ran a blue one in d.c.(one of corey's boys) with a total of three people in mine and two in his and he pulled on me. i was running 8 psi!
04-20-2006, 12:55 PM
#28
Originally Posted by tavarish
you think a 6spd is good? 5spd is lighter, and has less parasitic loss. Boogie with that. :-D
. the car you was working on at your house is that the car your gonna use for the swap.
04-20-2006, 12:57 PM
#29
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swapped 3.5 with just headers and a good tune over a SC max any day of the week.
It takes alot to get a SC max running much more than high-mid 13's. It's not just a matter of "throwing in a smaller pulley". Mardi's old SC max really wasn't all that fast on boost alone, no spray.
A 3.5 making 260-270 whp will have ton's more power under the curve than any vortech SC max making over 300whp could ever dream of.
It takes alot to get a SC max running much more than high-mid 13's. It's not just a matter of "throwing in a smaller pulley". Mardi's old SC max really wasn't all that fast on boost alone, no spray.
A 3.5 making 260-270 whp will have ton's more power under the curve than any vortech SC max making over 300whp could ever dream of.
04-20-2006, 01:04 PM
#30
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
A 3.5 making 260-270 whp will have ton's more power under the curve than any vortech SC max making over 300whp could ever dream of.
04-20-2006, 01:16 PM
#31
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
A 3.5 making 260-270 whp will have ton's more power under the curve than any vortech SC max making over 300whp could ever dream of.
04-20-2006, 01:19 PM
#32
Originally Posted by chris'smax
and that right there is why i decided to do the swap
04-20-2006, 02:07 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by Blu←
96 sleeper has a 12 second car as it sits right now on sticky tires without proper timing and the restrictive stock IM. If he got those two things taken care of that car would easily run mid 12's on stickies and make 280whp+.
04-20-2006, 02:10 PM
#34
Originally Posted by Blu←
I've been waiting a couple years for someone to tackle what you're doing, I cant wait to see how the 3.5 responds to the Vortech blower. Im mainly wanting to see how much better the torque curve looks.
04-20-2006, 02:52 PM
#35
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I agree with chris'smax on page 1 of this thread...the people that have done the 3.5 swap are usually drag race (straight line track ******) and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense...it's just the simple fact, they have a lot more experience in prepping, launching, and setuping their cars to be lighter and faster in the 1/4, ie tire pressures, weight reduction, better suspension setup, stickier tires....so therefore a fully modded bolt-on 3.5L should keep up with a 3.0 S/C'ed running 300whp to the 1/4...but I think that is because they are much more efficient at putting down the power to the ground...they have just enough power to get out of hole very fast, but not waste the first 2 gears of acceleration like 3.0's do when they are s/c'ed...well atleast all the ones I have been in...meaning the boosted 3.0's have to waste a lot of acceleration they could have in 1st and 2nd gear since they have way to much power...but if you look at their trap speeds such as requin6's video taped 12.9 runs on a slightly slipping exedy stage 1 and 3.125 pulley, he wastes a lot of acceleration in 1st and some of 2nd with only 320whp and no weight reduction, you will see that his traps are crazy...comparing those to other cars from the factory such a porsche turbo which has awd...they run the same traps but their 1/4's are about a half second faster since they can get out of the hole and put the power down through those first few gears without the necessity to feather the throttle...so the real test of power/weight is not off the line, but from a roll...then my vote would without question go to the boosted 3.0...
04-20-2006, 03:06 PM
#37
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
I agree with chris'smax on page 1 of this thread...the people that have done the 3.5 swap are usually drag race (straight line track ******) and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense...it's just the simple fact, they have a lot more experience in prepping, launching, and setuping their cars to be lighter and faster in the 1/4, ie tire pressures, weight reduction, better suspension setup, stickier tires....so therefore a fully modded bolt-on 3.5L should keep up with a 3.0 S/C'ed running 300whp to the 1/4...but I think that is because they are much more efficient at putting down the power to the ground...they have just enough power to get out of hole very fast, but not waste the first 2 gears of acceleration like 3.0's do when they are s/c'ed...well atleast all the ones I have been in...meaning the boosted 3.0's have to waste a lot of acceleration they could have in 1st and 2nd gear since they have way to much power...but if you look at their trap speeds such as requin6's video taped 12.9 runs on a slightly slipping exedy stage 1 and 3.125 pulley, he wastes a lot of acceleration in 1st and some of 2nd with only 320whp and no weight reduction, you will see that his traps are crazy...comparing those to other cars from the factory such a porsche turbo which has awd...they run the same traps but their 1/4's are about a half second faster since they can get out of the hole and put the power down through those first few gears without the necessity to feather the throttle...so the real test of power/weight is not off the line, but from a roll...then my vote would without question go to the boosted 3.0...
Requin has about the fastest SC only 1/4 to date that I've seen with is a 12.9@110. What you are wrong about is his car was fully gutted also. I've ran SR20DEN when I was making 320whp and I got the slight edge but it wasn't nowhere near as much as some of you think. 320whp SC'ed will get beat by a 280whp NA 3.5l 4th gen with the cars weighing the same. It doesn't matter if its from a roll or a dig, the 3.5l at those power levels will have just as much traction issues as SC'ed cars.
04-20-2006, 03:08 PM
#38
Originally Posted by michaelnyden
I agree with chris'smax on page 1 of this thread...the people that have done the 3.5 swap are usually drag race (straight line track ******) and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense...it's just the simple fact, they have a lot more experience in prepping, launching, and setuping their cars to be lighter and faster in the 1/4, ie tire pressures, weight reduction, better suspension setup, stickier tires....so therefore a fully modded bolt-on 3.5L should keep up with a 3.0 S/C'ed running 300whp to the 1/4...but I think that is because they are much more efficient at putting down the power to the ground...they have just enough power to get out of hole very fast, but not waste the first 2 gears of acceleration like 3.0's do when they are s/c'ed...well atleast all the ones I have been in...meaning the boosted 3.0's have to waste a lot of acceleration they could have in 1st and 2nd gear since they have way to much power...but if you look at their trap speeds such as requin6's video taped 12.9 runs on a slightly slipping exedy stage 1 and 3.125 pulley, he wastes a lot of acceleration in 1st and some of 2nd with only 320whp and no weight reduction, you will see that his traps are crazy...comparing those to other cars from the factory such a porsche turbo which has awd...they run the same traps but their 1/4's are about a half second faster since they can get out of the hole and put the power down through those first few gears without the necessity to feather the throttle...so the real test of power/weight is not off the line, but from a roll...then my vote would without question go to the boosted 3.0...
what do you mean waste acceleration? if you mean traction, it's all about launching technique, and the rubber you have on your wheels. A fully modded 3.5L should be able to beat an S/C 3.0 pretty badly, it's the stock 3.5L we're talking about. But keep in mind the amount of money it takes to get to the power levels we're talking about here. All motor is the cheapest "advanced performance" category. No, you don't get any fancy whoosh sounds, but they get the job done, and you don't have to worry about boost leaks or nitrous explosions.