View Poll Results: trans ?
rebuild it!!!
4
10.00%
VLSD!!!!its worth the extra $$$$$
36
90.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll
vlsd advantage
01-22-2007, 01:52 PM
#41
Originally Posted by KRRZ350
interesting, I never knew that. Anyways, no need for the apologies, it's all good. I was hoping you were going to take the bet though, I'm going to miami for spring break, I'm not positive I'll be driving in the I' or my freinds mustang though
01-23-2007, 02:22 AM
#42
Originally Posted by KRRZ350
yes you're missing something here, the article says that a vlsd will wear out at 60k, yet clearly the pics above with 175k it is still causing tq to go to BOTH drive wheels, length of them had nothing to do with it, no need for an attitude.
Also, if you don't believe me I really don't care, but heres one more bit of info and I challange anyone to prove otherwise. viscous newtonian liquids turn from a liquid to a solid at higher temperatures,
the opposite of everything you learned in 3rd grade science class, that is why under higher shear rates they turn from a liquid to a solid,
because shearing creates friction which creates heat. SO, in the wikipedia article that was written 20 years ago, it says this "particularly any sustained load which overheats the silicone results in sudden permanent loss of the LSD effect". That is flat out wrong and if you can prove otherwise more power to ya
If you intend to argue, at least look up the definition of a Newtonian fluid and get that straightened out first.
Dave
01-23-2007, 12:08 PM
#47
Originally Posted by VQuick
Nothing wrong with quoting Wikiepedia, it's as accurate as the Encyclopedia Brittanica according to a recent study.
Did you ever get the suspension setup you were looking for?..
01-23-2007, 12:56 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Apparition
Most of the stuff on there is highly credible, more so than many other sites.. That's why I quoted it genius.
01-23-2007, 07:50 PM
#52
Originally Posted by Apparition
Did you ever get the suspension setup you were looking for?..
01-23-2007, 08:07 PM
#53
Originally Posted by JSutter
This thread sucks!
Peeling out in a FWD on the street is lame... Taking pix and bragging is even more lame. WHO GIVES A ****!
Peeling out in a FWD on the street is lame... Taking pix and bragging is even more lame. WHO GIVES A ****!
That's for those kids who drive Boosted Sentras around, not us, were better. Hell yeah..
Originally Posted by VQuick
Still searching for a used set of coilovers. I'm going to take off my current setup and sell it in the next few weeks, and then keep searching.
01-23-2007, 08:20 PM
#54
Supporting Maxima.org Member
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Posts: 4,572
I have to defend v-quick and apparition about wikipedia, it is deffinitly very informative, it's just that article on vlsd was clearly written a long time ago and alot of it isn't applicable anymore. Also, I've found the best place to find out 'the real deal' is by going to google and clicking on the link for ">>more" then doing a patent search. Type in Torsen Limited Slip Differential, a few pages down in the actually patent it has the same intro that viscous and clutch have, and drawbacks of both I THINK, can't remember
"The only thing a pair of skidlines proves is that there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep them both grabbing. VLSD will tolerate slightly more torque imbalance."
Since you're nitpicking stuff, do you mean to say that 'there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep near equal tourqe going to each wheel. VLSD will tolerate slightly more traction imbalance'
It will tolerate ALOT more than an open dif, to the point that it makes a huge difference in the amount of traction and acceleration in a straight-line race. The pics imo prove that my dif. isn't 'functioning like an open-dif after 60k'. if it was then the majority of the time it would have left one. open-difs leave one mark most of the time, of course not every time, I totally agree with people on that, I also agree that if the traction imbalance is great the vlsd will leave one also, but I drive an open dif a33 alot and it would def. blow 1-tire in similiar situations as the pics. vlsd is better than an open-dif in a straight line, and they are, the traction imbalance caused just from the drivetrain twist alone under a hard launch is enough that the vlsd would have a much better traction advantage than an open dif. car. btw, I'm not saying you disagree with any of this stuff either, it's just that you said 'slightly' and it's more than that, it's def. a noticeable improvement.
"You're confused perhaps with shear-thickening fluids, which are non-Newtonian and increase in viscosity under heavy shear load. They do NOT turn solid."
You're correct, they don't turn into a solid state, but they DO behave like a solid, and yes that is what I was thinking of, I always thought it was caused by heat until I just learned a whole crapload about it because I second geussed you.
"Well nearly all fluids lower in viscosity as they increase in temperature, Newtonian, non-Newtonian, etc. Silicone does too. Putting heavy work into the VLSD will increase it's temp, which decreases the viscosity of the fluid, and lowers the amount of torque the viscous unit will output. Basic physics."
ok, obviously you're right and you made me look like a fool right there, (I'm a very honest person and have no shame!) the only point I really wanted to make in this thread anyways is that choosing a vlsd over an open-dif will greatly improve traction, people on this board seem to make comments otherwise, and the wikipedia article makes vlsd sound like junk, I've never over-heated one to the point that it would spin one wheel under a hard launch, and I've wailed on both auto and stick vlsd's pretty hard. to the point I would have felt guilty even if they were rentals
, for the type of driver I am I would hate ripping through first gear in an open-differential, I can immediatly notice the loss of traction and lack of straight-line performance gained from one
"If you intend to argue, at least look up the definition of a Newtonian fluid and get that straightened out first."
I'm not trying to argue or prove a point, ok maybe I am, and for that I appologise, but there's no need to attack my veiwpoints so viscously, so again, sorry if I brought this to some sort of confrontation between ANYONE here. But anyways, since you worded that so harshly, I did look up the deffinition, let's compare:
You:
Newtonian = a fluid characterized by a viscosity, which is constant across temperature, pressure, and applied shear
Wikipedia:
For a Newtonian fluid, the viscosity, by definition, depends only on temperature and pressure (and also the chemical composition of the fluid if the fluid is not a pure substance), not on the forces acting upon it.
Websters:
–noun Hydrodynamics. any fluid exhibiting a linear relation between the applied shear stress and the rate of deformation.
"The only thing a pair of skidlines proves is that there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep them both grabbing. VLSD will tolerate slightly more torque imbalance."
Since you're nitpicking stuff, do you mean to say that 'there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep near equal tourqe going to each wheel. VLSD will tolerate slightly more traction imbalance'
It will tolerate ALOT more than an open dif, to the point that it makes a huge difference in the amount of traction and acceleration in a straight-line race. The pics imo prove that my dif. isn't 'functioning like an open-dif after 60k'. if it was then the majority of the time it would have left one. open-difs leave one mark most of the time, of course not every time, I totally agree with people on that, I also agree that if the traction imbalance is great the vlsd will leave one also, but I drive an open dif a33 alot and it would def. blow 1-tire in similiar situations as the pics. vlsd is better than an open-dif in a straight line, and they are, the traction imbalance caused just from the drivetrain twist alone under a hard launch is enough that the vlsd would have a much better traction advantage than an open dif. car. btw, I'm not saying you disagree with any of this stuff either, it's just that you said 'slightly' and it's more than that, it's def. a noticeable improvement.
"You're confused perhaps with shear-thickening fluids, which are non-Newtonian and increase in viscosity under heavy shear load. They do NOT turn solid."
You're correct, they don't turn into a solid state, but they DO behave like a solid, and yes that is what I was thinking of, I always thought it was caused by heat until I just learned a whole crapload about it because I second geussed you.
"Well nearly all fluids lower in viscosity as they increase in temperature, Newtonian, non-Newtonian, etc. Silicone does too. Putting heavy work into the VLSD will increase it's temp, which decreases the viscosity of the fluid, and lowers the amount of torque the viscous unit will output. Basic physics."
ok, obviously you're right and you made me look like a fool right there, (I'm a very honest person and have no shame!) the only point I really wanted to make in this thread anyways is that choosing a vlsd over an open-dif will greatly improve traction, people on this board seem to make comments otherwise, and the wikipedia article makes vlsd sound like junk, I've never over-heated one to the point that it would spin one wheel under a hard launch, and I've wailed on both auto and stick vlsd's pretty hard. to the point I would have felt guilty even if they were rentals
, for the type of driver I am I would hate ripping through first gear in an open-differential, I can immediatly notice the loss of traction and lack of straight-line performance gained from one"If you intend to argue, at least look up the definition of a Newtonian fluid and get that straightened out first."
I'm not trying to argue or prove a point, ok maybe I am, and for that I appologise, but there's no need to attack my veiwpoints so viscously, so again, sorry if I brought this to some sort of confrontation between ANYONE here. But anyways, since you worded that so harshly, I did look up the deffinition, let's compare:
You:
Newtonian = a fluid characterized by a viscosity, which is constant across temperature, pressure, and applied shear
Wikipedia:
For a Newtonian fluid, the viscosity, by definition, depends only on temperature and pressure (and also the chemical composition of the fluid if the fluid is not a pure substance), not on the forces acting upon it.
Websters:
–noun Hydrodynamics. any fluid exhibiting a linear relation between the applied shear stress and the rate of deformation.
01-24-2007, 03:07 AM
#55
Originally Posted by KRRZ350
I have to defend v-quick and apparition about wikipedia, it is deffinitly very informative, it's just that article on vlsd was clearly written a long time ago and alot of it isn't applicable anymore.
"The only thing a pair of skidlines proves is that there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep them both grabbing. VLSD will tolerate slightly more torque imbalance."
Since you're nitpicking stuff, do you mean to say that 'there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep near equal tourqe going to each wheel. VLSD will tolerate slightly more traction imbalance'
Since you're nitpicking stuff, do you mean to say that 'there was balanced enough grip across both wheels to keep near equal tourqe going to each wheel. VLSD will tolerate slightly more traction imbalance'
You're right, the difference between open and VLSD is quite significant. However, compared to a torque-sensing or adjustable diff the VLSD isn't as impressive.
You:
Newtonian = a fluid characterized by a viscosity, which is constant across temperature, pressure, and applied shear
Wikipedia:
For a Newtonian fluid, the viscosity, by definition, depends only on temperature and pressure (and also the chemical composition of the fluid if the fluid is not a pure substance), not on the forces acting upon it.
Websters:
–noun Hydrodynamics. any fluid exhibiting a linear relation between the applied shear stress and the rate of deformation.
Newtonian = a fluid characterized by a viscosity, which is constant across temperature, pressure, and applied shear
Wikipedia:
For a Newtonian fluid, the viscosity, by definition, depends only on temperature and pressure (and also the chemical composition of the fluid if the fluid is not a pure substance), not on the forces acting upon it.
Websters:
–noun Hydrodynamics. any fluid exhibiting a linear relation between the applied shear stress and the rate of deformation.
Dave
01-24-2007, 08:07 AM
#56
Lmao I wrote most of the article on the 4th Gen Maxima.. 
Some of it was already there though.
The car was redesigned again in 1995 as the A32. A new VQ30DE 190 hp (142 kW), 205 ft-lbs tq 3.0 L V6 was the only engine option for the USDM. Its smooth, powerful acceleration and long-term durability helped the Maxima earn its first "top ten engine of the year" award which it has now been recognized 10 years in a row, the engines have also responded well to lower boost levels when a turbo or supercharger is added. The car was redesigned to compete with the new Mazda Millenia.
The exterior was refreshed for 1997, with new 5-spoke alloy tims, plastic (clear-lens) headlights, a slightly different front and rear fascia with new taillights, foglights and badge designs, and a chrome grille insert for GLE's (body color for SE models) was added. Among interior changes were a different steering wheel and CD player. Front seat-mounted side impact airbags were added as an option for 1998 and 1999 models. The independent rear suspension was replaced with a cheaper torsion bar solid axle, although some argue this system was more beneficial due to the front-wheel drive layout. There were also structural modifications to improve crash worthiness for the 1997 to 1999 models.
The North American 1995 Maxima included a Bose sound system on the GLE (optional on the SE) which had a 6 speaker sound system, a Clarion system was also an option (non-Bose). The fourth generation Maxima was highly appraised for its roomy interior.
This Maxima was Motor Trend's Import Car of the Year for 1995. The Maxima SE again made Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 1995 and 1996.
In addition, this version of the Maxima is the most popular with tuners or modders because of its low price and performance parts availability.
This particular generation was sold in Japan as the Nissan Cefiro A32, which previously was a separate rear-wheel drive car (see A31 Cefiro). For the Japanese market, a Cefiro-badged station wagon was also available. The Cefiro was sold in the US as the Infiniti I30, yet the Cefiro had subtle differences including different fog light arrangements, one-piece headlights and a few assorted engine options (one of which was the VQ25).
This generation was sold as the Maxima QX in Europe, and was mostly identical to the Japanese Cefiro except for minor trim differences.
mwahaha.
Some of it was already there though.The car was redesigned again in 1995 as the A32. A new VQ30DE 190 hp (142 kW), 205 ft-lbs tq 3.0 L V6 was the only engine option for the USDM. Its smooth, powerful acceleration and long-term durability helped the Maxima earn its first "top ten engine of the year" award which it has now been recognized 10 years in a row, the engines have also responded well to lower boost levels when a turbo or supercharger is added. The car was redesigned to compete with the new Mazda Millenia.
The exterior was refreshed for 1997, with new 5-spoke alloy tims, plastic (clear-lens) headlights, a slightly different front and rear fascia with new taillights, foglights and badge designs, and a chrome grille insert for GLE's (body color for SE models) was added. Among interior changes were a different steering wheel and CD player. Front seat-mounted side impact airbags were added as an option for 1998 and 1999 models. The independent rear suspension was replaced with a cheaper torsion bar solid axle, although some argue this system was more beneficial due to the front-wheel drive layout. There were also structural modifications to improve crash worthiness for the 1997 to 1999 models.
The North American 1995 Maxima included a Bose sound system on the GLE (optional on the SE) which had a 6 speaker sound system, a Clarion system was also an option (non-Bose). The fourth generation Maxima was highly appraised for its roomy interior.
This Maxima was Motor Trend's Import Car of the Year for 1995. The Maxima SE again made Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 1995 and 1996.
In addition, this version of the Maxima is the most popular with tuners or modders because of its low price and performance parts availability.
This particular generation was sold in Japan as the Nissan Cefiro A32, which previously was a separate rear-wheel drive car (see A31 Cefiro). For the Japanese market, a Cefiro-badged station wagon was also available. The Cefiro was sold in the US as the Infiniti I30, yet the Cefiro had subtle differences including different fog light arrangements, one-piece headlights and a few assorted engine options (one of which was the VQ25).
This generation was sold as the Maxima QX in Europe, and was mostly identical to the Japanese Cefiro except for minor trim differences.
mwahaha.
01-24-2007, 08:54 AM
#57
when it comes to hardcore road racing (not drag) the stock viscous limited-slip differential is worthless after just a few runs with R-compound tires. thats not me, that's purpose built se-r racer at Willow Springs Raceway.
when it comes to the street, who cares? get the best bang for the buck, whether it be rebuilt, open, or vlsd.
when it comes to the street, who cares? get the best bang for the buck, whether it be rebuilt, open, or vlsd.
01-24-2007, 10:44 AM
#58
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This is a repeat for some of you, but there seems to be some confusion as to how the VLSD in our specific transmission actually works.
The driver side axle has two splined sections. One engages the inner portion of the viscous coupling and the other engages one of the two differential side gears. The housing of the viscous coupling is bolted to the differential carrier (ring gear). If the side gears and carrier are turning as a unit (ie. both wheels turning the same speed) the coupling is doing nothing. There has to be a rotational speed differential between the two sections of the coupling for it to transmit any torque. The larger the differential, the greater the amount of torque that can be transmitted.
I have proven this to myself by jacking up both front wheels with the car in neutral and turning one wheel at different rates. If rotated very slowly (~1-2 rpm) the opposite wheel does not turn at all. For the other wheel to turn in the same direction, the ring gear and consequently the mainshaft would have to turn. By turning the wheel a little faster, the viscous coupling transmits sufficient torque to overcome the “losses” in the transmission and the other wheel turns. If you put the transmission in gear, the other wheel will turn in the opposite direction. In this case, the carrier (and viscous coupling housing) is held stationary, and the differential behaves like a conventional open-type unit. There is a fair bit of resistance to turn the wheels in this manner but it can be done by hand slowly. The faster you try and turn it, the harder it gets.to maintain a constant speed. You are feeling the extra resistance imposed by the viscous coupling as it tries to turn a stationary ring gear.
Incidentally, these tests were all performed on a VLSD with about 48K on it.
I also tested it with one wheel on ice and the other on dry pavement. The car will creep ahead slowly with the wheel on the ice spinning easily 10 times as fast as the wheel with traction (depending on throttle position)
To make a long story short, because it can only transmit a relatively small amount of torque when the wheel speeds are close to the same, it is really only of any benefit in low traction situations (ie. both wheels on snow).
This may have something to do with the fact that Nissan only offered it as standard equipment on Canadian market maximas. We do have significantly larger annual snowfalls (based on national averages of course)
Personally, I am considering the Quaife unit. Unfortunately, I will have to buy another tranny (open diff) to put it in. It’s too bad as I just replaced all the bearings in my current one less than a year ago.
The driver side axle has two splined sections. One engages the inner portion of the viscous coupling and the other engages one of the two differential side gears. The housing of the viscous coupling is bolted to the differential carrier (ring gear). If the side gears and carrier are turning as a unit (ie. both wheels turning the same speed) the coupling is doing nothing. There has to be a rotational speed differential between the two sections of the coupling for it to transmit any torque. The larger the differential, the greater the amount of torque that can be transmitted.
I have proven this to myself by jacking up both front wheels with the car in neutral and turning one wheel at different rates. If rotated very slowly (~1-2 rpm) the opposite wheel does not turn at all. For the other wheel to turn in the same direction, the ring gear and consequently the mainshaft would have to turn. By turning the wheel a little faster, the viscous coupling transmits sufficient torque to overcome the “losses” in the transmission and the other wheel turns. If you put the transmission in gear, the other wheel will turn in the opposite direction. In this case, the carrier (and viscous coupling housing) is held stationary, and the differential behaves like a conventional open-type unit. There is a fair bit of resistance to turn the wheels in this manner but it can be done by hand slowly. The faster you try and turn it, the harder it gets.to maintain a constant speed. You are feeling the extra resistance imposed by the viscous coupling as it tries to turn a stationary ring gear.
Incidentally, these tests were all performed on a VLSD with about 48K on it.
I also tested it with one wheel on ice and the other on dry pavement. The car will creep ahead slowly with the wheel on the ice spinning easily 10 times as fast as the wheel with traction (depending on throttle position)
To make a long story short, because it can only transmit a relatively small amount of torque when the wheel speeds are close to the same, it is really only of any benefit in low traction situations (ie. both wheels on snow).
This may have something to do with the fact that Nissan only offered it as standard equipment on Canadian market maximas. We do have significantly larger annual snowfalls (based on national averages of course)
Personally, I am considering the Quaife unit. Unfortunately, I will have to buy another tranny (open diff) to put it in. It’s too bad as I just replaced all the bearings in my current one less than a year ago.
01-24-2007, 10:52 AM
#59
Originally Posted by eng92
Personally, I am considering the Quaife unit. Unfortunately, I will have to buy another tranny (open diff) to put it in.
01-24-2007, 12:27 PM
#60
Originally Posted by eng92
Personally, I am considering the Quaife unit. Unfortunately, I will have to buy another tranny (open diff) to put it in. It’s too bad as I just replaced all the bearings in my current one less than a year ago.
01-24-2007, 05:05 PM
#63
Assuming equal traction on both wheels, an open differential will allow two-wheel burnouts every time in my (limited) experience. Every time I've done a burnie, I've left two definite skid marks. They may not be perfectly equal but roughly they are. I have traction bars and ES bushings up front, thereby eliminating wheelhop entirely, so maybe that helps. I could see wheelhop on one side messing with the balance maybe.
It's only once you turn the wheel a little or have significantly different traction levels on the two tires that you see the benefit of an LSD. Do most of you agree or not?
LOL, that's great Apparition. I remember making some important corrections to the Wikipedia entry on the Maxima, probably a year and a half ago. I think they had engine info wrong.
It's only once you turn the wheel a little or have significantly different traction levels on the two tires that you see the benefit of an LSD. Do most of you agree or not?
LOL, that's great Apparition. I remember making some important corrections to the Wikipedia entry on the Maxima, probably a year and a half ago. I think they had engine info wrong.
01-24-2007, 06:58 PM
#64
Originally Posted by VQuick
It's only once you turn the wheel a little or have significantly different traction levels on the two tires that you see the benefit of an LSD. Do most of you agree or not?
agreed
03-28-2007, 07:49 AM
#66
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 291
There is def a difference between an lsd car and a open diff car. Mine currently has an open differential, and is supercharged and i cant get enough traction to save my life. Even at 1/4 throttle i tend to just burn in 1st. Its been driving me nuts. The reason why i want a vlsd, or really anything that will help lock the two shafts together, is so i can get both wheels with equal traction. Those pics he is showing are exactly what the car should be doing. TWO WHEELS with basically equal traction. Ive done the same with mine and all i get is a lame one wheel patch with my open diff. And to note: yes if your a really good driver you can probably due without on a lauch, but around corners, an lsd will def help.
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