Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

oh yea sorry to nitpick....i HIGHLY recommend swap out that Deltagate for an Tial, HKS, Greddy or other brand. The deltagate is know for being crappy. If your tuner recommened that he is trying to unload a product or he really isnt an "expert"

skimax

why are you sorry, he should be thankful! you are being way too nice and helpful!

norton2099

Skimax always puts a smile on my face.

nigelcmf

Dude....I did not say I was not thankful! I am very thankful for Turbomax's help! Way too nice and helpful? That suggests he shouldn't be helpful to us...is that what you're saying? That's what the org is all about...it's about good, friendly people sharing their experiences and trying to help each other out.

One thing though about the wastegate, fuel injectors and other stuff...I need to highlight again that this is a budget system. Turbomax and others keep telling us how difficult it is to get a Turbo system for that cheap...it is possible you can't expect the really high quality stuff.(I am not saying that this is all bad quality stuff). I told my Turbo guy I was on a budget and to provide a GOOD budget system. You will always trade something off....in any case I am sure I will upgrade stuff later. I am TRYING to put together a good system that is generic enough but you can customize the major parts....wastegate and turbo are examples (some additional flange work required). Will this set up be as nice as Turbomax's.....probably not...but then again I am not paying the $$$ he is either. Don't pay $5 and expect to get a Porsche. It would be wonderful to put a VATN turbo that can spool in 0.1 seconds....and you can if you want to pay the $$$

On the Fuel pump, again I agree, don't cheap out on that. I am going to get the Walbro GSS342??. It doesn't cost anything really. I would love to get the Greddy variable boost. It's something I'll get later when I got the $$$.

As far as turbo sizes go....thanks again for the feedback...it's really good to challenge and understand what is involved here and it also depends on opinions and what you want. Why did Porsche put such a large turbo in their 911 and Nissan put such a small one in their Turbo ZX's when their engines are similar in size? Yes, I know the Porsches have been criticised for turbo lag but they have good power and less heat.(Yes there are also engine diffs....air cooled, stronger internals...) We can discuss this till the cows come home! Once again...I am very very very thankful for Turbomax's help! He is a good guy who has given a LOT of input into other threads and forums on this topic....I know! It might be good to do a TO4 just for comparison. I have to put a little bit of trust in my Turbo guy....he races at Bandemere a lot and should know a little something. I think he's getting a little bit ticked that I am questioning so many of his decisions....he flexible though and will do pretty much whatever I ask for. I'm going to back off questioning him for a couple of days.

By the way, Shimax, why are you on my case? Did I offend you with the fuel pump thing? OK I was wrong about the 100 shot....I admit it...again. The claim is that you can do without it running 5-7 lbs (I am not going to try running without it though. For approx. $100 it isn't worth cheaping out on it)....obviously doesn't like people to disagree...is that cos you're always right? If you don't like what you see, don't buy or change it to something you do want. I have very little to gain from doing this other than the fact that I will have a nice Turbo max.

j_bryan

iTrader: (1)

sounds like an interesting project.

i'll keep my eyes on this to see how it turns out.

nigelcmf

I always try to keep the initial posting updated by editing it, so the latest information will be right at the beginning of the thread. Just FYI.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

You know...since this guy is about the only one that's even come close to getting a turbo kit for ANY generation maxima, how about we all switch gears and give him our support? If you don't want the kit, how about not participating in the thread? If you do want the kit, how about contributing in a positive way? I admit, I was critical but now we I think we should support him. What's the worst case? He can't do it? Leaves us right where were before, no worse right?

And BTW. How about the T3 w/ the internal wastegate? It might be a little more inefficent but should be cheaper to get the kit going. If people want external types, they can have a shop fab them up one later? You can adjust the internal ones pretty easy w/ a simple boost controller anyway correct?

skimax

i'm not coming down on him, i'm just giving my opinion so he won't run into problems. also the his guy can use a tial or greddy wastegate instead of deltagate for the same price since i see some room for it in the price.

so can you answer my q this time? is it for auto/manual or manual only?

i happy that he has finally decided to use a fuel pump, these are the type of corrections i want to see made so he will run into less problems.

i know he can do it, but who can honestly do it on their own. so my help should be praised! well since my OPINIONS aren't welcome here i will be gone.

ttyl

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Well I suggested to use an internal one that's even cheaper.

He is designing this one around the 5-sp. He already mentioned that he didn't know if the kit was going to clear the auto tranny.

I'm doing mine on my own. Turbo95 did. And I'm helping another member do his also. But more one that later. It's not really applicable here.

Your help should be praised? Is that why you post your opinions? For praise? You should help becuase you want to help and in this case, to see something new get done(turbo).

Yeah it's nice to get praise sometimes but it's not why I post technical help.

Since you are repling to my post, where does it say your opinions weren't welcome? Does that mean you were only going to post in a non-constructive manner?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

People always beat me to this stuff...

Deltagates are junk, unless you enjoy boost creep and spikes

The DSM pump is the same pump as our cars use (Walbro).

I wouldn't go any larger than a 50 shot of nitrous on the stock fuel pump. Power is power, and fuel needs are proportional to that power. BriGuyMax is running lean on just a 50 shot, bolt ons, and stock pump... thinking you are going to use the stock pump with an 80 hp increase is crackhead-ish.

I think that's all that really stood out for me in this thread...

nigelcmf

OK

Well I am going to stick to the turbo. Turbomax, if you have any dyno test results to share at a specific boost, we can compare after the install. As far as the wastegate is concerned, I don't think I can change since the stuff has been ordered.

I asked about the Tial and Greddy, he said Tial is good...about $50 more if you guys want it. Greddy is not worth the money.

As far as turbo sizes, he will do any turbo size you want with the appropriate flange.

And for Auto tranny guys, we should be able to work something out when the piping is is being done.

Thanks for the support Jeff! This thread may go quiet for a few days until my car goes in... I'll still be reading though. Now we're just waiting for the parts to come!

Later....

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

EXCATLY....fuel system and wastegate isnt something to cheap out on. Tial makes wastegates that are very realible and affordable. juss hearing Deltagate gives me a bitter taste in my mouth.

nigel, as far as dyno results...no i dont have any, nor do i have plans in the near future to dyno my car. I dont like dynos and i know alot of friends that have had trouble or blown motors on dynos. Ive said it before and ill say it again...cars werent designed to go 120mph standing still!

nigelcmf

two things:

1. People are saying Deltgates are crappy. Could you direct me to links that verify this. I would like to check them out ... boost creep and spikes sound a little concerning. I have been searching the open web to check this and so far no luck I have tried keywords "Delta, deltagate, poor, reliability,...." I cannot find any bad comments about them. I would be very interested in reading them and contacting the writers to see what problems they face and what they now use. Is it really common knowledge that these are bad? If so I will request a change.

2. no one has talked of blow off valve. Do I need one at such low boost? My turbo guy says it's not necessary at low boost like this.

As far as internal wastegates are concerned, I wanted some flexibility to choose a wastegate... and for anyone buying this also. I also thought of a cabin boost controller as a future upgrade...not sure how these work but thought externals might be better/easier to set up in the future...please correct me if I am wrong cos I don't know much about wastegates at all!

OgreDave

iTrader: (1)

get a bov, protect yer investment.

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

sorry i dont know of any direct links to the deltagate. YOu shouldnt be searching the maxima forum tho as nobody really has turbos. You can still use a boost controller with an internal wastegate. a bypass valve might be a better choice if you are trying to save money. bypass valve works better then the showoff BOV, but i still like BOV better cause thats a big reason people get turbos. for the BOV noise. plus with the blow off valve, you might run into probs sometimes because of placement of the MAF sensor.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

Yeah bypass valves are more efficient on MAF/VAF cars, because the MAF accounts for the air that goes past it. If you are using a BOV, some of that air gets vented to the atmosphere when you shift, rather than vented right back into the engine like with a bypass valve. If you are venting to atmosphere, your MAF is accounting for air that is actually ESCAPING, and thus will provide fuel for air that "gets away." Still, I like BOVs because of the neato "psshhhtt."

I don't have any links to specific complaints on the net about Turbonetics Deltagates, but I know many honda owners with Drag and Rev Hard turbo kits. Both of which come with the Turbonetics Deltagate. One guy I know blew his engine up because of creep/spiking. He's now using a Tial wastegate on his new motor. I've heard the other turbo guys talking about how $hitty they are as well. From what I hear, they are bad bad news.

nigelcmf

Thanks for the advice guys..

What should I be paying for Tial wastegate and what type of BOV/bypass valve should I get and cost?

Thanks

Nigel

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

i paid under $180 for the .6bar 35mm Tial wastegate about 2 years ago but i dunno if prices have changed since then.

nigelcmf

How about recommendations for BOV?

Thanks

carnal_c30

iTrader: (38)

HKS, Turbomax's sounds SUUWWEEEEEET

nigelcmf

Heheh! All Right! PPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHTT!

SuDZ

This could be very very cool.

SuDZ

poolstick01

let me know how it turns out. If everything goes good I will buy one

nigelcmf

Car should go under the knife this week if all goes well. I asked add the HKS BOV for $230+.

Well now I know where price creep comes from. Before you know it, it gets expensive again! It's still not too bad though. But if you start adding fortification like pistons and rings, camshafts and sleeves to run much higher boost, you get up to the $6k mark where uncle max and Turbomax are probably.

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

if your paying $230+ for an HKS BOV you gettin ripped off...heeh
maybe its 6k, maybe its more, maybe its less..

nigelcmf

I think that includes steel flanges. Does that still sound high? I have searched around the web. The prices seem to be in that ball park. if you can get a much better deal, I'd be very interested. PM or email me!

vmok

Check out the Bailey vent to atmosphere BOV. They also make a recirculating unit where you vent it back to the intake side after the MAF before the turbo.

www.roadsterperformance.com sells it for about $135, or $150 for the recircluating one.

You will WANT a BOV. I installed a Greddy TD04H turbo kit into my other car, and it came set from the factory at 4 to 4.5psi non-intercooled. I've up the boost via the integrated wastegate to about 5.5psi. Even at 4.5psi, when you lift off the throttle and close the throttle place, you can hear the air (under boost) smack off the throttle place and bounce back wards out through the turbo. It makes this weird pffft pffft pffft noise. Also, my pipe between the turbo and throttle body pops off quite a bit because of this. I believe a BOV will prevent it because it release the sudden pressure that builds when the throttle plate smacks shut.

You will want to watch what kinda of BOV you're running. There are basically 3 types. A standard single action vent to atmosphere, a sequential/dual action vent to atmostphere, and a recirculating unit. The vent to atmosphere one doesn't work too well with cars running a stock MAF. The reason is that the air going through the system is metered by the MAF, but then leaks out through the BOV before it gets to the throttle body/engine during idle due to the BOV not closing completely. This will either cause the car to die at idle or idle very erratically. The recirculating unit routes the air that is released back into the intake piece after the MAF before the turbo. This is supposed to be the best setup as all air accounted for by the MAF is used by the engine AND by putting excess boost through the turbo, you get faster turbo spool up because the recirulcated air keeps the turbo spinning. FINALLY, there are dual/sequential BOV. This is what I ordered for my Miata with a stock MAF. It should be coming in next week, but I know that it will work as my friend is running it on his Miata. His Miata is a 94+ which runs a hotwire MAF similar to the Max, while my Miata runs a barn door MAF. The sequential BOV is different in that it doesn't leak air at idle, hence the sequential/dual stage. At idle, it has a spring that holds it shut. There is a certain amount of air still lost to the atmosphere that is blow out when you lift off the throttle, but we haven't encountered any driveability problems. Plus you get the cool pffffffffftttttt noise everytime you shift of lift throttle. The other sequential BOV is the HKS Super Sequential unit. I believe there are several other unit as well, but I don't remember who makes them.

You'll want to mount the BOV as close to the throttle body as possible, and I believe the Bailey unit doesn't require a flange, but just a 1" bung.

-V

btw, I was wondering how was timing retard on the Max to prevent detonation while on boost going to handled?

nigelcmf

Thanks for the advice vmok. I am getting the HKS sequential BOV. I need to call the shop today to see if my stuff is in.

As far as timing retard is concerned ... I am not doing anything at this stage. I know Unclemax has an MSD 4 ignition system in his, which would be programmable. Unfortunately, he does not know how it got hooked up ... and neither do I cos I think those work with 3 or 4 coils and we have individual coils for each plug.

I am tring to think of a way to retard timing by either "tricking" the crankshaft and cam position sensors (phase shifting) or tapping into the ignition system and creating a delay in firing electronically ... this is theory right now.... but has some foundation for reality. The MSDs work on the latter principle, detecting a pulse when the plug is supposed to fire from the stock ignition system and creating a delay (where necessary) to fire the plug.

As far as I know, the JWT ECU daughterboard does not work for 97-99 models.... I haven't checked recently though.

We will try to avoid detonation by running 1 step colder plugs. I will probably add octane booster also (not sure how much it will help)... all to avoid detonation. I also plan to have an EGT to monitor exhaust gas temp for earliest signs of detonation.

SuDZ

So when does your car go in? Any idea how long they think it will take?

SuDZ

nigelcmf

I called them today. Just 2 components to come, intercooler and Turbocharger. If no problems 1-2 weeks with doing pipes and stuff.

SuDZ

Nice. Hope it is somewhat reliable for you. Then it will be all kinds of fun.

SuDZ

vmok

No prob... I'm using a MSD unit to pull timing out of the Miata. It is a specific unit designed specifically for turbo Miatas. It senses manifold pressure, and pulls 6 degrees of timing as boost builds. It intercepts the crank angle sensor signal and modifies it before sending it to the ECU, tricking the ECU. My friend is using a Bipes unit, which intercepts the signal off of the same crank angle sensor and modifies it before it goes to the ECU as well. It differs in that it pulls timing based off of engine RPM and temperature, rather than manifold vacuum. I don't know how the crank angle sensor signal is calibrated, but you may be able to use the same device?

Hmmmm, an EGT is nice, but I'm assuming the Max's ECU will pull out timing automatically when it senses preignition or detonation through the knock sensor. However, pulling it normally requires a lot of timing pull to get rid of knock, and only a little retard to prevent it. Are you going to be running an AF meter? It's VERY handy in tuning. I thought the lag in throttle response was the turbo spooling up until I installed the AF meter, then I found out that it was the FPR catching up to the boost. The car would go lean at throttle tip in (red lights on the Autometer), then turn green as the FPR starting increasing the fuel pressure from the manifold boost. The car would pull hard (also, because the ECU is going into open loop).

Good luck with the turbo project! What is your estimate on how much the total project will end up costing?

-V

nigelcmf

Vmok ... thanks yet again!

What MSD unit are you using? MSD DIS2 or 4? It is interesting that it uses that methos of modifying the signal (probably just phase shifting it) I had toyed with the idea in another thread a few weeks ago. It's fairly easy to do except I found that there is a LOT of interference in the engine bay (- I wanted to build my own circuit). This might work for the Max too but the Max uses Crank and Cam shaft sensors to detect top dead centre (I think). Do you happen to have a wiring diagram/instructions of how this fits into your Miata? If the Crank angle sensor is a Hall-effect sensor, it should be easy, but the cam sensor might complicate things.

As far as A/F meter. I have three gauges right now:
1. EGT
2. A/F meter
3. Fuel pressure

I will probably get a boost also. I initially bought these for the Nitrous kit I have (still not installed). Then this turbo thing came up and I didn't install the nitrous.

Many people had told me that the A/F gauge is useless bcos it is not accurate. I was going to leave this out of the turbo set up to make room for the boost gauge - I have room for three gauges.

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

messing with the crank and cam sensors wont work. it might even cause a no spark condition...the max reacts retardly with this stuff.

the JWT ECU upgrade does retard timing, i think on your less then 6psi of boost you should have no detonation probs. i guess it also depends on your weahter in the area.

nigelcmf

time for a BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSTTTTTTTTTT!

Still waiting for turbocharger and intercooler .... coming this week!

nigelcmf

Hi guys

Thought I'd give a quick update! Haven't done so for a while. My car still hasn't gone in yet. Spearco sent the wrong intercooler and my Turbo guy will not start until everything is there and is verified. I guess that's good so I won't be without my car for too long!

Hopefully, it will be in on Thursday or Friday. I am VERY anxious to get this started! Hang in there folks!

Wizeguy

Great work on the turbo, I've been reading the posts. As far as timing etc... I know www.flyinmiata.com is located in Grand Junction, Colorado. I'm not sure how close they are to you, but they are the turbo experts for the Miata crowd. Just a fyi...

I can't wait to see the results.

SuDZ

Figures once your getting so close something has to set it off for ya. Can't wait to see how it goes though.

SuDZ

nigelcmf

Thanks for all the support guys! It's really frustrating when stuff like that happens! I have been watching the thread on the general forums by Unclemax. He has great pics on his! Mine won't look quite so fancy. His is chromed turbo with stainless pipe. Mine will be powdercoated steel (on the pipe). Alex (Unclemax) is a good guy, I wish him all the best too! (guess I should post this on his thread). I will try to post pics ... prob need help there since i have never posted pics here b4. Pray they send the RIGHT intercooler next time. Turbo arrives monday ...hope they send the right one there too or I'll be really p!ssed!

nigelcmf

OK this has been dragging on for a long time. I've probably lost all credibility here. It has been delay after delay! Finally all the parts are in. The turbo was the last part . I didn't get to see the BOV but I guess we can install that later if it is not here yet. That wastegate is much bigger that I thought it would be!

I will be going in Thursday and actually doing some of the work myself. We will do a pre-turbo dyno test to see where we are with CAI and Y pipe.

Wish me luck!