matthewtennyson

Ok, so here's what's going on.

99 Maxima, owned since it only had 33K miles, now has almost 200K. Do quite a few of my own repairs, but have limited tools and kind of stupid when it comes to electronics.

About a month ago, came out of my office to start my car, took multiple tries, would not turn over. After a few tries, started and ran fine, got home, no problems at all. A few days later, it happened again, but took longer to catch and turn over.

Third time, I was in a grocery store parking lot and I honestly didn't think it would catch and I would get stuck. Finally started, got home and decided to take it to a shop.

First shop took a few days to diagnose it, then called and told me that they were getting a code for the mass flow air sensor, but couldn't really test it because the boot was ripped. I told them to duct tape the stupid thing, but they insisted I replace it before they would check it. Drove car to dealer (same price as eBay), but then got stuck in their parking lot with no start. Had it towed back to shop (I was an idiot for using the car, I know). Wouldn't start even when cold now.

Next day, shop calls and says that they did a compression test on the cylinders and got no pressure, and they thought I had broken timing chain, wanted to do exploratory surgery on my engine. I told them they were morons and to **** off. Took car to another garage.

Second garage said I had two issues: first is that when I was at the dealer, I tried unsuccessfully to restart it so many times that the security system kicked in and shut it down. They re-set system and we were back to the previous start only when cold. Got code saying mass flow air sensor was bad, would cost me $300 at local parts dealer.

Bought it on eBay for only $30 (HA!), but that didn't solve it. Shop said their last thoughts were either the cam sensor or the crankshaft position sensor. They had another Maxima in shop, borrowed them from that one, replaced mine with those used ones (that were known to work), didn't solve problem. They have given up and recommended I take it to dealer!

So, looking through different posts on different forums, I've seen people talk about:
air intake temp sensor
engine coolant temp sensor (ECTS)
cam sensor
crankshaft position sensor
knock sensor
Idle Air Control Valve (IACV)
fuel pressure regulator hose (on the vaccuem side)

That's a lot of parts, pretty pricey to do them all or just "guess" at parts. Besides, I would buy them on eBay to save money, and if I did them one by one, it would take me weeks and weeks.

My thoughts are that:
1. Crappy crankshaft sensor and that's still the problem
2. Wiring issue?
3. IACV (but this is pricey)

When I was stuck at dealer with no start at all (remember, anti-theft had kicked in), with key in on position, I heard intermittent clicking from IACV and from something on back of engine, near top (about in the middle of car, over by the fuel filter area).

Sorry for long post, but wanted to get it all out there. Any thoughts or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance!

CS_AR

Welcome to Maxima.org. We're here to help.

Last year I about this time I had a hard to start problem, the dealer declared the engine to be bad, the ECU was replaced, and on and one.. Finally figured it out..

Quick question regarding tools: How are you fixed for 10mm, 12mm and 14mm tools?

While I'm looking up some answers to your points above, for entertainment purposes, you may want to read my horror story in the link below.

https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...ng-advice.html

CS_AR

Where are you located? We may have a member in your area who can help or refer you to an honest garage.

Are you getting any Check Engine Light (CEL) codes?

Replaying your post and questions with answers in line.

So, looking through different posts on different forums, I've seen people talk about:

1) air intake temp sensor

I doubt this will keep your car from running. Reason: I accidentally unplugged mine and started the car. The car started but quickly threw a Check Engine Light (CEL) code for the temp sensor.

2) engine coolant temp sensor (ECTS)

Possible. When trying to find my issue, I replaced mine with SMP/BWD Intermotor brand from Advance Auto using an internet coupon code for low cost. This was not my issue.

3) cam sensor

It can be cleaned. I replaced mine but that was not the issue.

4) crankshaft position sensor

The front and rear cam sensors can/should be cleaned. The front sensor can get soaked with oil and grit. The rear sensor contacts can corrode and the magnet can pick up metal fragments from the starter gear hitting the flywheel. I swapped CKPS with my running 99 I30 – no change.

5) knock sensor

Will not keep the car from starting. Often a ‘ghost code” associated with the KS is presented when other codes are present.

6) Idle Air Control Valve (IACV)

This can be cleaned. If you hear it clicking when you turn on the key, there is a good chance the electromotor inside is good.

7) fuel pressure regulator hose (on the vaccuem side)

Fuel pressure regulators have been the source of “hard to start” issues. However, the car will eventually start.

8) That's a lot of parts, pretty pricey to do them all or just "guess" at parts. Besides, I would buy them on eBay to save money, and if I did them one by one, it would take me weeks and weeks.

You can buy yourself a lot of trouble for these cars on eBay. A MAF of unknown origin can bring some kind of grief. I buy used Nissan OEM MAFs from salvage yards. We have members who sell used MAFs in the classified section. I just saw someone purchase a new aftermarket MAF that worked. Most don’t.

My thoughts are that:

1. Crappy crankshaft sensor and that's still the problem
The CPKS (2) can be cleaned.

2. Wiring issue?
Possible. You never know. A grounding issue could be contributing to the problem.

3. IACV (but this is pricey)
It can be cleaned. It sounds the electromotor in yours is working. I would try cleaning it. This usually doesn’t keep the car from running.

Have you verified the car has good fuel pressure? Fuel pumps do fail sometimes.

Also, I’ve seen a failing ignition switch cause failure to start issues. We may need to rule out a failing ignition switch.

I had the car towed home for ME to fix it with help from this forum.

In my thread you can see where “Maxima_Joe” correctly nailed my issue last winter as a clogged Catalytic converter. I ended up paying the dealer over $800 to mis-diagnose my issue as a bad engine.

Steps to get the car running again:

1) Removed the upstream O2 sensors so the car could breathe in spite of clogged up cats.
2) Jumpered car to another car with a hot battery.
3) Held the accelerator wide open (WOT)
4) Closed the driver’s door to keep from immobilizing the car again.
5) Hit the starter and held it for a couple of minutes until the car started.
6) One I got it running I kept it running for an hour.

After I got it running, I had later found a misfire on cylinders 5 and another on cyl 2 caused by broken injector pintle caps that resulted in uncontrollable flooding. The uncontrollable flooding that had been occurring cooked the cats. One problem leads to the next.

I had to refurbish the injectors to get the flooding problem under control.

After ALL that the car still didn’t idle like it should – but at least it didn’t missfire and I could drive it. The car idled like it had a vacuum leak. It did have a vacuum leak alright – from a failing EGR valve. I had previously cleaned the EGR pipe and valve. The EGR pipe was completely clogged. So after cleaning the pipe, I exposed vacuum leak with the failing valve. So I replaced the EGR with a SMP Intermotor brand that I purchased from Advance Auto using a discount code. It turned out to be a Hitachi EGR just like the original.

After cleaning everything on the engine, refurbishing the injectors, installing a new y-pipe (without upstream cats), new temp sensors, and a new EGR valve, it runs like a new car.

matthewtennyson

Wow, that sounds like a heck of a bad time with the computer. I don't think I'm facing anything like that because once my car starts, it runs fine, good mileage, not stalling, no missfires, etc.

Oh, and the check engine light is not on and after I replaced the MFA, there were / are no codes.


I'm doing pretty good for tools. I'll change my own breaks, in the past have changed out starter, water pump, alternator, etc. Even did the A/C compressor (had a shop evacuate and then recharge, but I did the other labor). I did hire someone to change out my coils about a year ago, but that's because I didn't want to remove the fuel injectors to get at the back three coils.

Once I get this fixed, I'm going to tackle changing out my struts because they're shot and running on springs sucks.

When I said I'm an idiot for electrical, its because I'm good at mechanical but get lost really fast when people talk about ohm testing and such. I can swap out parts and break my knuckles while getting dirty (even did my fuel pump last year).

JoshG

Since u have a 99, Maybe your security system is messing around with you? if its immobilized it can prevent it from starting.. but listen to CS AR above ^ , he knows it.

CS_AR

Ok - you're equipped for some maintenance. Just a hard to start problem.

I would try cleaning the front and rear crankshaft position sensors. No parts to buy.

Also, I've read where a failing ignition switch contributed to hard to start problems. A member just reported and resolved this problem in another post.

Then the fuel pressure regulator is a usual suspect.

At 200k its time for a good mid-life maintenance refresh.

Do you know how the EGR tube looks?

matthewtennyson

Not security system. It did come into play after multiple attempts to start when hot, but now that it's re-set, I don't keep on cranking if it won't start right away. Just have to wait for something to cool down (???).

So, even though the last shop said they swapped out the cam and crankshaft sensors, I should still try cleaning them?

Other recommendation was the ignition switch. Any way to test, or just have to replace and cross your fingers?

Third recommendation, fuel pressure regulator: previous post said that would cause a hard time starting, but it would eventually start. That's not my issue, won't start at all when hot.

I'm located in Tucson, AZ. Willing to go to a reputable shop if they know what they're talking about. Already been to two different idiots (see initial post)

matthewtennyson

Missed your question about the EGR tube. Not a clue what it looks like (or even where it is).

I've got to go back to the last shop to get the car back (it's currently just waiting for me). Have to pack up the kids and the wife to go pick it up, thank God I can use her car temporarily. But with two kids (one 11 months), we can't just leave them and this is really a pain in the butt.

I'm trying to figure out what I can do myself once I get it home, how much $$$ to spend on it (kinda broke, like a lot of people, or I'd have a newer car than this) and how long it will take.

Frustrated. If I knew what the stupid thing was, I'd just do it. This diagnostic stuff is ....

CS_AR

Hey now we're getting somewhere.

A bad ECTS is known to cause warm start issues.

Here's a video from one of our members. Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9MNH8Ukpw

If it turns out that you need to buy a new ECTS, I got mine at Advance Auto for $18.89 that is a BWD/Intermotor brand with a lifetime warranty by ordering online using the TRT30 coupon code and picking up at my local store an hour later.

JoshG

yeah.. since u say it doesn't start when hot only, It has to be something temperature related.

matthewtennyson

A bad ECTS for under $20 and it's really easy to get to? I'll do that, can't hurt.

And I'd only be out $20 (besides, it's probably original, 15 years old and 200K miles).

I'll try that tonight and post the results. I just have a gut reaction that its something that is fine cold, but hot throws out a message to computer to stop the start, so this makes sense.


Thanks!

JoshG

Engine Coolant Temperature sensor it is, It makes sense.. Post back results and see if it works for you. I'm sure it will.

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

Going by the thread title alone, my first recommendation would be the ECTS. Don't replace it without testing it first. Very simple to do.

matthewtennyson

Well, went to the shop to pick up the car tonight (they left it outside for me, I have a second key). Glad my wife waited for me instead of drop-and-run because I couldn't get it to start at all, even cold. It tried to catch one time, then just cranked and cranked.

It's late, had to get the kids back home to bed, so left the car there.

Should I still try the coolant temperature sensor, or does this new information / symptom change anything?

Basically, it's progressed from hard to start warm (wouldn't turn over, but starter, fuel, and spark were good) to not starting at all now.

?????

CS_AR

Quick question -

At any point while you are trying to get it started, are you holding the accelerator to the floor?

I take it you have the door closed while you are trying to get it started?
I don't want to dwell on the accidental immobilization topic, but since you have lost a few hundred dollars on it already, I hope you can avoid it in the future.

Do you have a VOM to test the ECTS like the guy in the video?

Since we are moving from "hard to start" to "no start" some troubleshooting will need to occur.

I would like to see you be able to start it so you can drive it home to do more diagnostics. The problem is that most shops I know frown on owners working on their own cars in their parking lots.

There is a thread reference in my signature line to the following page.

https://maxima.org/forums/infiniti-i...on-solved.html

matthewtennyson

Unfortunately, it's not the lock-out. I've already been down that road and know not to try a zillion times and to not try with the door open.

Don't have a VOM, but I'm going to talk to the shop in the morning and try to shame them into testing the ECTS for free.

First shop tried to charged me an hour labor, I only paid them half and told them to **** off.

Second shop, first go-around (lock out and bad ECM code), they charged me $200. I bought the ECM myself and installed it. Second go-around when ECM replacement didn't work, they didn't charge me but did have it for four days before they gave up.

Like I said, I'm going to shame them into testing the ECTS for free. If that shows ok, then I'll have to figure out how to get it started to get home and diagnose some more.

How likely is it that it's still the ECTS? Would a failing sensor give me the initial symptoms and then it "gives up the ghost" and won't start at all? I really hope so.

Stay tuned ...

CS_AR

I haven't seen where a failing ECTS will render a car inoperable. Hard to start yes. Impossible to start no. Basically the ECTS tells the ECM the engine operating temperature so it can adjust for cold or warm conditions. Unfortunately, the club sometimes doesn't see how a given case turns out once someone apples a fix and gets their car running again. Though, the hard to start when hot sounds like classic a ECTS issue. Only testing will verify the sensors condition.

See how far you can get with getting it started to make it home. I have a suspicion there is more than one issue at hand.

How long has it been since the fuel filter was changed? We recently had a starting issue case that turned out to be clogged fuel filter.

I would start verifying the basics like fuel, fire, and exhaust to rule out some new culprit.

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

With your new information, I'd look at the fuel pressure regulator as well.

matthewtennyson

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

Talked to the shop today, and they really didn't get too far into it before they threw in the towel. I was incorrect in what they have done so far.

What I was told today (now that I know a little bit about what I'm talking about due to you here in this forum; you rock!) by he shop is that they swapped out the cam sensor with a known good one. Didn't work, so they re-installed my old one. That's it. He told me that he cleaned oil off the crankshaft sensor, but upon further questioning, he told me that they did not remove it from the engine, just cleaned oil off the external connector. WTF?

Shop does not want to swap out parts with aftermarket, only wants to use OEM. He's telling me that there are two crankshaft sensors and one cam sensor, and all three parts alone will cost about $350, let alone labor.

I asked him about the ECTS and he said that there was no code, and that they bench tested it (???) and it was fine.

So, we're back to the crankshaft and cam sensors. Morons. Why not pull them and clean them off?????

Going to try again to start car b/c was told by shop that they were also having the hit-or-miss on starting it. One day, it would start, the next it wouldn't. Once I can get the thing home, I'll remove the sensors and clean them.

Question: I thought there was only one each, but the guy from the shop was saying I have one cam and two crankshaft sensors? Also, what should I clean them with?

Thanks so much!

matthewtennyson

Or should I just say to heck with it and replace them? Where can I get good parts, not too expensive?

Live in Tucson, AZ, have Auto Zone, O'Riley Auto Parts, Meryl's, and a few others, but not a lot. Usually end up going on eBay. Thoughts?

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

I agree with CS AR - The ECTS will not cause a no start condition.
You need air, fuel and a timed spark.
Air should be a given, have them check for fuel by verifying fuel pressure or even by pulling the plugs. They might be soaked with fuel by now if spark is what your missing.

The camshaft position sensor controls fuel injection timing, it should not cause a no start condition if it fails.

There are 2 crank sensors, POS and REF. They WILL cause a no start condition if either fails. REF looks at the main crankshaft pully, POS is located on the transmission bell housing and looks at the flywheel. Both control ignition timing.

Nopike

iTrader: (2)

Have you tried actually changing the starter? My 4th Gen had hard starts for a while. It thought it might be the FPR or something like that. It ended up being the starter which gave out completely 2-3 months later. The starter had more issues when the car was warm. What was happening was the starter seemed to crank fine but it was actually too weak to start the car quickly. A new starter solved that.

How old is your starter? Sometimes issues like this end up being overthunk.

When in doubt try the cheap and easy stuff first.

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

Added "cold" for clarity.

The only way they could have bench tested the ECTS is if they heated the tip somehow and measure the resistance cold, and at around 190 degrees. As the temp goes up, the resistance goes down. Specs are listed in the FSM.

Don't replace the 2 crank sensors and camshaft sensor just yet. Diagnose and evaluate, don't just randomly replace parts that could potentially cause the issue. Just clean them with a dry cloth. Inspect that the crankshaft sensor tip is not chipped in any way. You didn't mention if your mechanic checked to make sure the 3 sensors were within voltage specs per the FSM, sounds like they only swapped the cam sensor temporarily.

For $20, you can get a decent multimeter. The FSM is free. If possible, diagnose yourself and skip the mechanic. We're here to help.

I agree with Nopike, it could be the starter. I've been reading quit a few stories here lately with regards to starting issues; and the person tried everything under the sun, and it turned out to be the starter after all.

maxfever1987

iTrader: (93)

200k miles? Quite possible that it's your fuel pump, I didn't see anyone above mention it at all, and I'm surprised p,

when you sit in your car do you hear it prime? To start you need air fuel spark, your fuel pump might be a prob,

A month ago it might have started to show it's symptoms and at this point it may very well be toasted since you have a no start regardless of temp

asand1

iTrader: (1)

I have seen cars that would not start due to a faulty ECTS. If you've ever ran a small engine with a carb and manual choke you will know that it will not start until you close the choke off. If the ECU thinks the engine is 200*, and its really 32*, the engine will not start. Try starting a hot engine with thechoke on and it will quickly flood and not start either. Spend enough time professionally working on cars and you will see this at some point.

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

Check for fuel and spark!

DBear

Just to be clear, the starter always spins, right? The issue is that the engine won't catch and keep running?

CS_AR

Though unlikely, is there any chance this issue could be caused by a blown fuse like #33 the 7.5 amp for ST or the Fuel Pump fuse?

matthewtennyson

Sorry I have not responded in the last week, been doing 14 hour days at work. Love the holidays!

Anyways, it's not the starter and not the fuel pump. I've gotten new cam and crankshaft sensors, going to install them tomorrow. The shop only did a temp swap of the one by the serpentine belt, didn't even look at the other two. Idiots.

Can I ask anyone out there to post photos of where exactly they're located? I see the one right on the side of the engine by the serpentine belt, that's the easiest of the three. Not sure where the other two are. I could probably find them, but I'm visual and if someone has a photo, that would be awesome.

I bought these off eBay, where I've bought other parts and such before and never had a problem. Got a deal on all three, so even if I don't need them, I'll look at it as preventative maintenance. Shipping and everything was only $77, not a bad deal considering local suppliers wanted about $250 for all three.

I'll be doing this after we get home from church tomorrow afternoon, so I'll post the results here when done and tested. I'm pretty sure this will take care of it, but if not ... fun!

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

Here you go. Overall pic




Crank sensor (REF) in next to the crank pulley and oil filter at the very bottom of the front of the engine



Crank sensor (POS) is near the radiator side motor mount


The camshaft sensor is probably the easy one that you described that you can see on the side of the timing cover

matthewtennyson

Well ...


IT WORKED!


Not sure which of the three sensors it was, but after only 30 minutes to replace them all (I spent more time removing the stupid splash guards in the passenger wheel well and the front under bumper), it works fine now.

Three cold starts -- starts right up.
Twice went for a 10 mile drive, back to home, parked car for a few minutes then started right up again with no problem.


First one, Crankshaft Position Sensor, REF was coated with old oil, all on the outside.

Second one, Camshaft sensor, looked like there was a chip on it but not sure (that's the one the mechanic said was swapped out).

Third one, the Crankshaft Position Sensor, POS, had a few metal shavings on it, so that could have been the problem, sending a false signal.


For anyone reading these posts in the future, DO NOT LISTEN TO MECHANICS WHO ONLY LOOK FOR COMPUTER CODES!!!! Ask clear questions here in this forum, listen to the advice, and you'll save tons of money and time.

Wish I'd come here first. Also wish that I had listened and gotten an electrical tester first instead of just relying on dumb *** mechanics.

To everyone who responded, especially CS_AR and The Wizard, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! I will be praying for the Lord to give you blessings and His grace even more this holiday season.




One last question: if the Crankshaft Position Sensor, POS, had a few metal shavings on it, is there something else I need to be on the lookout for / concerned about? Isn't that sensor inside the transmission?

CS_AR

Thank you and glad to see that IT WORKED!

The rear CKPS is in the bell housing next to the flywheel. The metal shavings on the rear usually come from the starter gear wear. I've noticed the front CKPS gets soaked in oil and grit where the rear stays dry. I've seen the rear contact points get corroded.

JoshG

Problem solved! by replacing the following parts-

Crankshaft sensor

Camshaft sensor

Crankshaft position sensor

Thank you, this helps future people who may run into this problem later on, Enjoy your ride!