Shrout1

When I start up the car I can hear what I think is the timing chain until the engine warms to operating temps. This takes probably 2-3 minutes. This happens after the car has been sitting overnight.

It's a 5 speed manual, so when I shift into reverse and let off the clutch the engine RPMs drop to about 800. At that point I can hear a very pronounced rattle. If I keep the engine above 1500 RPMs the rattle goes away. Once I reach operating temps everything is fine.

I suspect that the piston spring in the tensioner has failed. Since the tensioner is hydraulically pressured at temp, I think that the spring is bad.

Wanted to pick your brains and see if you agree with me. Also, how likely is this to cause major problems in the near future if I try and let the car warm each morning?

I'm kicking myself because I had the engine out in October and even removed the tensioner to replace the water pump I could have swapped for a new tensioner or serviced the spring quite easily... Ugh ugh ugh.

It looks like swapping the tensioner is annoying but not impossible... The bay is pretty tight, but if I move the power steering reservoir supposedly I can reach it without too much of a problem.

Appreciate your thoughts!

Shrout1

Here is a boredmder video on removing the water pump - he goes over taking out the tensioner with the engine still in the bay. The end of video 1 shows the prep prior to him pulling the tensioner.

Turbobink

iTrader: (2)

Before you assume it's chain rattle, I'd encourage you to rule out other possible culprits ... primarily the belt tensioner but also look into the alternator bearing.

vqmaxman

I have heard the 97-99 have the tensioners redone different than the 95-96 maximas. The redesign in the chain guides were due to the chain rattling at an later high mileage and wear and tear on the 95-96 maximas. The 97-99 are supposed have the bulletproof version of the tension guides and chain.

Shrout1

The car is at 186k and the alternator was swapped at 165k... It's an autozone alternator so it's not impossible, but the fact that the noise goes away with temperature is odd to me.

I'll grab some video in the morning, lift the hood and maybe try and induce the sound a bit.

Shrout1

I've read this too. That's part of why I didn't service it when I pulled the engine. Many posts here say the later design is supposed to be good until 300k

Turbobink

iTrader: (2)

I think the likelihood that your issue would be a worn/failing belt tensioner is a bit higher than it being the alternator.

I'm speaking from specific experience.

I was convinced that my chain tensioner and likely the chain guides were failing causing intolerable (to me anyway) clatter.

Turned out to be the belt tensioner pulley.

I'm not saying that your issue isn't the chain tensioner. However, don't be mislead based on the fact that your symptoms appear to relate to engine operating temperature ... lubricants react and they're characteristics change with temperature (i.e. old pulley bearing lubricant flows better when warm).

CS_AR

This is true. I've replaced tensioners on both Phase I and Phase II VQ30 engines. If you have a Phase I engine, you're in for some work.

I had to replace the Phase II tensioners on my 98 and 99 model engines between 220,000 and 235,000 miles.

Replacing the tensioner on a Phase II engine only requires removal of the tensioner access door and some care not to let the piston pop out during the operation.

If you do anything with the tensioner, be sure to order the gasket that sits behind the tensioner. The gasket was issued in a TSB. All of my 4th gens are running Phase II tensioners with the TSB gasket.

I have a thread posted with some tips on how to perform painless tensioner swaps.

Before changing tensioner "cold start" video.


After changing tensioner "cold start" video.

Shrout1

Oh wow it's not that bad. I'll have to pop the hood in the morning. At 186k if I can get another 35k out of the current tensioner I'll be happy. I just moved into an apartment and have no good means to work on the car...

If it turns out to be the tensioner and I can get it done in a single day then I'm sure a friend will let me use their garage.

Otherwise she's running great tho! Been quite reliable. I should probably stop talking about it or the car will catch wind and start acting up...

vqmaxman

I know for a fact that heat is the enemy. I know they call for 4.5qts for an oil change but believe me putting in 5 full quarts is better to lube all the moving parts and minimize engine heat. The extended oil filter would be a good idea with 5qts.

vqmaxman

The car sounded like the popular 3.5l that go bad in the quest murano maximas altimas. I wanna say heat and cheap oil and improper oil changes wilk cause this stuff to happened. I don't wanna say mileage or wear and tear because the chain and the guides are built to take the beating on the 98-99 models. It's heat and improper lubrication.

KP11520

DUDE! You're Back! Been a long time since you moved!

Glad to see you're taking care of those body parts I want on your 99! LOL

See...... Now you wish you did pop that TC cover and replace the Chain, Gears, Guides, Tensioner and Water Pump while the engine was out of the car! Piece of cake compared to now.

I hope you get this settled easily! But you did look really happy when you were sitting in the engine compartment. I think you're gonna wind up like CS_AR. A whole Maxima Farm. LOL

Better start buying the wife expensive jewelry now!

So where are you keeping my body parts now? Still MD?

Turbobink

iTrader: (2)

O.K. wait ... am I reading an assertion here that in an engine that calls for 4.25 US Qts. of motor oil, 5.0 US Qts actually be used?

If this recommendation is sincere, what about foaming ... what about the impact on internal seals and on gaskets ... cavitation?

I realize that I'm old-school but running an engine with .75 Qt. additional to the manufacturer specifications seems to fly in the face of whole bunch of common internal combustion reasoning.

Shrout1

Haha - so long as I own this thing I'm bound to stop back in

I've relocated all your parts to sunny Huntsville, AL. Rocket city! Never thought I'd live in Alabama but hey - expect the unexpected.

And I would *totally* have done that timing chain, but my mechanic buddy wasn't having it. Since I am barely verging on competence when it comes to auto repair I figured I shouldn't go that one alone.

Anyyyway I took some video this morning, tho my youtube account isn't being cooperative. Here's a link to it on my google photos account:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...NMSlV3dUpZWDJ3

If I can get it on youtube I will.

What you're seeing here: I have the parking brake on, brake depressed and shifted the car into reverse. As the clutch starts to slip and the RPMs drop on the engine you can hear the rattling. The second time I did it I have the tachometer in frame.

It makes this noise when I get below about 1000 RPMs cold / 800 RPMs lukewarm. Seems like it goes away when the engine is hot.

vqmaxman

That is known that the oil manufacturer recommendations are 4.5qts. I have been using 5qts with no problems. The reason is because i have the long extended oil filter that has more oil capacity. The mobile 1 we use m-108 i use the m-110 thats longer but the diameter is the same as the m-108 oil filter.

KP11520

Alabammy? Don't tell the mrs, but they do have some very beautiful critters running around down there. LOL


Now about my SE-L body parts..... They look dirty. You need to do a better job keeping them clean. LOL

So, I'm gonna ask the hard Questions.

If your wife doesn't drive a manual, how do you know where the rattling is coming from? Do you have any new friends that can put stress on the rpms without hurting the car?

Do you have a stethoscope?

If not, how about a long screwdriver?

You can firmly push the tip on the metal where you want to hear and wrap your hand tightly around the handle with your thumb over the end. If you put the bent knuckle of your thumb in your ear, you can pinpoint where the noise is coming from.

Once you know for sure, it will be a better guess what's causing this for sure. Right now it's anybody's guess. Tensioners (there one in and one out), TC Guides, Chain itself, something in the valve train, just for starters.

And as usual, JvG below, has some additional worthy advice along with those above!!!!!

See pic below (I'll add it later) for what the above listening helper should look like.

JvG

I would remove the belt so that the possibility of noise from belt driven stuff can be eliminated.
You could even drive the car without a belt.
That is safe to do because the water pump is chain driven.

Also listen for noise from the power steering pump.

Shrout1

Good suggestions all! Hopefully I can take some belts off this weekend. May need to borrow a friend's garage.

edwardh1

keep us posted

flynlr

iTrader: (2)

my 95 has had cold tensioner rattle on startup for going on 17 years now .....on startups when temp is below 40F I get the rattle for about 2-4 seconds then it goes away . I bought a new tensioner about 10 years ago to replace it but since it has never gotten worse I just let it go. car is only driven 4-5K per year so no big deal.

Shrout1

Haha yeah... The sun hasn't been kind to the paint job. I've also been a neglectful car dad and haven't waxed it or anything... It isn't completely gone yet buuuuut yah... She's still pretty on the inside!

I feel like this would be a fun car to learn how to paint on, but I also know that is a *maaaajor* PITA. I don't have the tools or knowledge, so I haven't really considered it. Would be fun though Guessing I'd need to keep it in a garage for about a month to get that done with the lack of skill I have.

Shrout1

I'm hoping this thing will hold out for a while either way. I let the thermostat hit the "C" on the bottom this morning and there was no noise backing out. Took about 2 min at 1000 rpms and then 60 seconds of me revving it to around 2000 rpms in neutral to warm it up.

I'd really like the car to last til 250k - I'm at 186k as of this morning. It just always seems to have something to fix...

JvG

I'm going to share one work-a-round solution or two which helps me cope with chain rattle, and an additive which might free up the tensioner if it is sticky due to deposits.

I own a 1992 Nissan pickup truck.
These are known to have bad chain guides.
like our cars, they have an oil pressure driven tensioner. It rattles badly when I start it, particularly the first start of the day. It will continue to rattle until the engine is warm. HOWEVER..... I noticed that if I rev the engine while it' in neutral, the rattle will stop immediately. Apparently the tensioner needs oil pressure to expand enough to apply enough tension to the guides to stop the rattle.

Try this experement on your Maxima. Let it idle about 15 seconds so that there is some oil pressure all over the engine. Then blip the throttle briefly to reach 2000- 3000 rpm while its in neutral. The blip should create enough oil pressure to stop the rattle.

Perhaps you can just live with the much less severe symptoms if this method works for you.

The 2.4 engine in the pickup has hydraulic lifters.
Our car does not. The 2.4 engine is infamous for lifter tick. Basicly crud gets into the lifters, or the lifter becomes sticky in its bore. I have found that adding a pint or so of Marvel Mystery Oil will stop the lifter tick. I have found that to be the case on three of those engines. It appears that the MMO disolves the stick crud. Results were almost immediate. Perhaps the MMO can free up a sticky piston in out tensioner as well.

MMO costs about as much as engine oil. It can be left in the engine for the duration of your oil change interval. I personally add MMO about 1000 miles or one month before the next oil change.

I'm not a fan of oil additives, but MMO has fixed my problem.

CS_AR

I've had some good luck with MMO on carboned up piston rings by soaking the cylinder in the down position overnight. That is an old Saturn trick that I applied to a "grandma driven" 95 model engine that was installed in the 99 model. That engine had the worst case of carbon build up that I've ever seen for only 83,000 miles.


MMO for the tensioner helped some on the 98 model when I first got it and the rattle started. For the 95 model engine, it seemed to aggravate the situation.


Here's a thread on some shortcuts for tensioner replacement for both the Phase I (95-96) and Phase II (97-99) model engines.

https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...ransplant.html



The most important thing that I learned about the tensioner problem is to use TSB gasket on the replacement -- left tensioner in this picture.

Shrout1

Little grave dig here...

When replacing my alternator a couple weeks ago I discovered that its bottom retaining bolt had gone missing. At some point in the past 4 years the 5 inch long bolt had worked itself mysteriously away and disappeared. Considering how obscured the bolt is it's not a huge surprise I didn't see it. I hope that it didn't shatter anyone's windshield when it fell out...

I replaced said bolt with some fancy Home Depot hardware while putting in the alternator and... low and behold... the rattle is gone. So I think that this rattle was actually caused by the body of the alternator chattering against the A/C compressor (joy) when the belt and engine were cold. When things heated up and everything expanded then the chattering would stop because the tension of the belt held the alternator in place. It may have contributed to the demise of the alternator after only 25,000 miles as well, though one carbon rod looked significantly shorter than the other after taking the dead one apart.

If this nonsense comes back this winter then I'll update, but til then I wanted to close this one out!