Dohcser

Dont start calling the Max a POS, cmon the car is a great car IMO, but I guess that is only your opinion. I know somone that has a 2k2 A4 that cannot keep up with my Max, I believe that the A4 is rated at 220HP. Obviously if you really want to go back to an A4 then HP dosen't matter to you.

Dohcser

Dont start calling the Max a POS, cmon the car is a great car IMO, but I guess that is only your opinion. I know somone that has a 2k2 A4 that cannot keep up with my Max, I believe that the A4 is rated at 220HP. Obviously if you really want to go back to an A4 then HP dosen't matter to you.

I am with you all though for getting Nissan to do something about the 15HP issue.

03BlkSETE

iTrader: (3)

Personally, I think the Max is a great car. I love it and I would not not want to sell it back to Nissan. I also hate lawsuits. At the same time I am ****ed off about the Horsepower issue. This was a big selling point to me, probably the biggest one that kept me away from competitors. The 255 hp was also what Nissan pushed to seperate themselves from the competition. This is a number that should be fairly easy for a huge company to report accurately. A lawsuit in this case is a just cause.

By the way when I finish my break in period which appears to be taking forever, I will dyno my stock 2K3 auto.

vito1281

I'm in the market right now for a 2003 SE 6sp, so once I get it (hopefully, before New Year's), and after I break it in, I'll go dyno it as well and save the papers. I think if at least 20 of us got stock Maximas dyno'ed and all of those showed less HP, then I don't think Nissan can deny that there is a problem, even if they try to dyno one of their's in the factory. If there are enough underpowered Maximas on the street being sold as 255HP cars, then no matter what Nissan will claim, the lawyers/gov't agencies/BBB will see that there is a problem.

Also, it would seem to me if we ARE able to get 20 stock Maxs dyno'ed and showing less HP (significantly less), then if we approach Nissan Corporation with a petition with our signatures (I think there's a way to do E-petitions, which works over email or something) and tell them that they should fix this or we'll go public with it to the newspapers in our respective states/cities, they would be more willing to do something about it privately rather than having us exposing them on a national scale and damaging their reputation. My 2 cents.

Dohcser

So now that everyone is hyped up about this especially me, do we have any LAWYERS on the org that can help. Or does someone know where we can go to file a complaint?

vito1281

I've mentioned some ideas in earlier posts. To summarize, we can try local big newspapers (to create negative publicity for Nissan and put PR pressure on them), Better Business Bureau, or if someone knows any lawyers they can consult with, that would be the best I think.

However, why don't we try to "scare" Nissan and go straight to them and tell them the situation. If they don't own up (which I'm sure they won't), we tell them we'll go to local newspapers and consumer agencies and create negative publicity for them. I think if there are enough of us that will say this to Nissan, they may actually listen...

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

lots of good ideas are being tossed around and like someone else said for those of you who are gonna sit there and say that's it not a big deal and we should drop it WRONG. nissan used the hp of the car as a major selling point and for those that said what about the altima owners suing for having more horse power i think that would get thrown out, they got more then what they paid for IFFF that was the case, but i'm holding that the cars both have ~240hp. i think a magazine would be a good venue to explore also, pull in some random maximas and altimas off the streets. No way in hell would they or should we allow nissan to supply the cars cus you know they can and will alter them to show the difference. Better Business Bureau, who wants to contact them?? I'll contact several magazines over the next couple days and if we have too i'm sure most of the 2k2-2k3 owners wouldn't mind throwing down $10-$20 just to get the ball rolling on this and have at least a couple dynoes video taped with witnesses ect... Like ASU said we let too many good ideas get hyped up and then fade away and we can't let this go. let's get some evidence see what nissan has to say and i'm sure the better business bureau can at least direct us the right way if not help us. and ya there has to be a lawyer or a friend of a lawyer lurking around, any advice???? if this goes public we will have no shortage of stock angry maxima owners around that would let their car get tested and i'm sure our altima brothers would help us out. so tonight i'll email some magazines, i need a volunteer to do the BBB.

vito1281

Just to add something on...For those of you who feel that Nissan SHOULD do something about it but doubt that we can pull anything off, well we won't be able to do much if YOU don't participate in some way (I'm not saying take on the whole issue by yourself, but at least offer advice...). But here's what I wanted to say...DON'T EVER FORGET THE POWER OF THE CONSUMER, AND ESPECIALLY A LARGE GROUP OF CONSUMERS!!! Look at the structure of unions, which basically arrange for huge paychecks and benefits from diff industries simply because they have large numbers. Obviously, we don't have the numbers equivalent to a union or anything, but I don't think it would take that many people to have SOMETHING done about it. I don't really think Nissan would be willing to buy the cars back, and I'm not sure a lot of people here would want this done, but they COULD take the cars in for service and perhaps tune the engines so that the HP is +/- 255, or perhaps add some parts FREE OF CHARGE that would boost the HP to the proper number. My $.02. Best of all, I don't think anyone of us should feel like we got taken by Nissan, especially after we shelled out some big bucks for the car. They need to be taught a lesson that consumers won't tolerate this kind of marketing gimmicks, and we can be the ones to make an end to this.

Dohcser

Well I sent in my complaint to BBB, can you all also do the same I labled mine "Nissan Complaint".

BBB Lookup For Your Area

GregP

My best dyno run stock was 205/218 on a 2K2 6-speed in 4th gear. The results are on my site - see link below.

http://www.greghome.com/Greg's%20Garage/2002MaxSE/DynojetResults.htm

vito1281

Why don't we do this? Lets come up with a standard letter, post it here in a thread, and then have everyone copy and paste it into their emails to BBB. This way we all say the same thing, and we can all edit this email so that we don't forget to include/mention everything that we need. Anyone think this is a good idea? Or should we just all do this separately?

vito1281

Here's another thing. I just looked at the Boston BBB and they say that the complaints should be filed with the BBB that is in the district where the company is HEADQUARTERED. So, I guess this means the complains have to go to the BBB in the state where Nissan is headquartered. Is that in Michigan or something? Anyone know?

2k2max

I'm in on this!!

How about calling the Consumer Report people?

vito1281

Can we make this a sticky so that everyone sees what's going on?

Dohcser

I believe it is now Tennesse, but trying sending the complaint locally and ask for advise on where we really need to take this.

Green 2kSE

Vito, you posted a ton in this thread and you don't even have a Max!

Young04

ok, let's actually do something. i'm in the boston area, i will schedule a dyno appointment...someone have a video camera? (i'm here for school, so i don't have any my goodies that i have at home). if someone with a video camera wants to meet up with me, i will do it. as for the legal stuff, i'm a law student, but i couldn't begin to tell you with any definitiveness whether there is a case or not. normally, if an attorney takes our case up, he will assume the expenses of discovery (meaning, he will pay for our cars to get dynoed).

if anyone in or near boston wants to accompany me, send me an email. let's get the ball rolling. (btw - i have a 2k2 auto, probably more of a prime subject than a 6spd). what we also need is expert testimony or documents saying what the typical drivetrain loss is, and not anything that is "hearsay" amongst enthusiasts.

Young04

see my post above...i can't say with definitiveness whether we have a case, but i do know that jurisdiction won't matter. if this is a class action suit, then it will affect customers nationally. it will probably be done in the federal district court that the hired attorney is in.

having said that, i'm going to suggest that choosing a venue where consumer groups advocates are strongest is in our best interest (i.e. NOT near plants of headquarters - since many of the people who live there will be employed by these companies).

vito1281

So, what's your point? If anything, that shows that I'm willing to help out while I still don't have mine. Besides, I'm going to be buying one in the next month or so, so by the time this actually rolls around to anything, I'll have it already. Everything that I posted is suggestions how to go about filing ANY complaint with ANY company. I believe you guys that the Max is overrated by Nissan, and I've driven some myself (although it's hard to tell by it's pull ). By the time I get my Max, I'd like there to be a way for me to get Nissan to do something about the HP. Anyhow, I was just trying to help, so no need to get on my case.

Young04

ok, actually what i will do is this. by the end of tomorrow night, i will get on lexis or westlaw and start researching some of the cases out there. again, whatever i come up with isn't definitive, but it should give us an idea. sorry that i can't get to it sooner - i'm busy with homework and classes as we get closer to finals, but i should have something by the end of tomorrow night. i will post the cases i find or at least the relevant parts so i don't bore members until then, let's keep the ideas flowing.

any takers who want to video tape a dyno of my 2k2 auto?

johnvt1111

iTrader: (2)

yeah a measly $640,000

Green 2kSE

It seems to me that some people don't understand how to correctly calculate the horsepower from their dynos. Say you have a 2k2 auto and you dyno 205hp. Assuming 20% drivetrain loss, do you think your car is overrated? Since it is a drivetrain loss, you need to subtract 20% (51) from the advertised 255hp to arrive at the actual hp at the wheels: 255-51=204. Bingo, if you dyno around that number, you got what you paid for! Some people just try to add 20% to the hp off the dyno but that's wrong. If you use the same 204hp and add 20% (40.8), you'll arrive with a much lower number (244.8). See my point?

Dave B

Back in 2001 when the power numbers for the 2002 Maxima and Altima were released, I noted how odd it was that the 3.5VQ in the Maxima and Altima were rated at the same amount of torque and at the same RPM yet the Maxima was to make 15hp more than the Altima. This is impossible. HP is computed from torque at a given RPM therefore if both the Maxima and Altima are rated at the same torque at the same RPM, they have the same HP (ie same motor).

You guys are forgetting something, according to the dynos, Nissan is giving you an extra 15 ft/lbs of torque. The 3.5VQ really makes about 260ft/lbs, not 246ft/lbs.

From a Nissan standpoint, they can simply say the Altima is underrated and got the Maxima motor. They can also say the 5 speed is more efficent than the 6 speed. The "lost 15hp" will be hard to prove in court because the lacking power is a very small percentage and can be attributed to numerous factors.

The lack of power in the 99 Cobra was significant (~40hp unaccounted for). Even with the SVT "fix", the 99 320hp Cobra was still slower than the 305hp Cobra. Most people never took into account that the independent rear suspension added 112lbs and IRS driveline sucked out more HP than the old live axle design.


Dave

PoweredbyNissan

So who will pay for the court fees and the lawyer fee if in fact we do put together a case? Nissan can drag this on and on for years and years with appeals and whatever else their lawyers do, can we really afford that?? Even if we can, and assuming we win at the end, will what the court give us outweigh what all the lawsuit cost we put in? Someone needs to really, i mean really consult with a good lawyer. But, dont get me wrong, I am totally in for a class action lawysuit against nissan with this maxima hp rating thing if we can find a law firm who is willing to get paid based on what we get from nissan. eh? what do u think?

wild willy

iTrader: (10)

I THINK YOU GOT A GOOD GRIPE OVER THE HP NUMBERS...i THINK THE GUYS THAT BOUGHT THE Z HAVE A BETTER ONE. Sorry cap lock was on.

johnvt1111

iTrader: (2)

i know a good lawyer, i talked to steve, but he hasn't gotten back to me........so let me know

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Or the Sentra Spec V.


Sure wish I "only" had 205whp.

xfirepwr1

I would also like a refund or extra 15hp. Something is definitely has to be done. Keep searching guys there has to be some kind of government organization that could do something about this issue.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

for FWD vehicles the hp loss is about 15% for a standard and 18% for a automatic. the automatic in the altima and maxima are the same so they won't have an arguement that the 6-spd looses more power(even though that is prolly false too) so you take 255*.82(18% loss on an auto) and you get 209.1hp, that's more then the 6-spds are putting down. take the 15% loss of a standard at 255*.85 and you get 216.75. SOOOO maximas are putting down that much and those are the industry standards for hp loss and ui'm sure we can get experts to testify to that. now take 240hp * .85 and you get 204hp Exactly what i got when i dynoed my 6spd. take 240 * .82 and you get 196.8, i believe i've seen maxima auto's dyno right aruond 196-197. And the altimas are putting down the same amount of power within a couple hp. i think acura cl-s's might be our friends here too. they have 260hp and a 6-spd tranny FWD, i think they are putting down 217-220ish hp and 260 *.85 is 221. i think we have a legitimate gripe and case here and i think it would also be in nissan's best interest's NOT to drag this on forever, that's WICKED bad Publicity. if we can get a magazine to back us or even a lawyer to cover the discovery(dynoes) we'd be all set and nissan would be stupid to drag this on. and dave the hp number is 6% that's not too small. that's gonna be like them saying their auto matics and 6-spd only in the maxima lose an ADDITIONAL 6% in the drivetrain over every other car on the road including the altima, that's a hard leg to balance on. i'll email mag's tonight.

johnvt1111

iTrader: (2)

steve's talking to a lawyer tonight.....so hopefully he'll get some answers to help you guys

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

7:30 i will be, thanks again john. i'll have some info then hopefully.

Dohcser

10 more minutes till you talk to the lawyer WHOO WHOO can't wait, oh by the way I am on the East Coast it's 7:20 here.

Come on people stay hyped up about this one, don't let it go!!!!

dino1063

This loooooong thread is getting good now!

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

it needs to be stickied and we need a new post with teh BBB info and letter that needs to be stickied too, moderators????

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

ok LISTEN VERY IMPORTANT:

He thinks we have a very good case and would like as much information and proof as possible. He said the best route would be a class action law suit and nissan would have to either compensate the effected parties, give the option of recison(buy back) or fix it to the right hp.

What he asked of me was my dyno tests with THE DATES OF THE DYNO's and THE DATE OF PURCHASE of the car. Along with the telephone numbers of other people who have STOCK dyno tests. PLEASE PLEASE, email me tonight at steve@frankencar.com and i will give you his fax number where he requested all the information be sent to tomorrow.
-DYNO with date and time
-Purchase date of car
-Trannsmission type
-Name and Telephone number to contact you at

What i need help with is finding documentation of the standards for horsepower loss from the crank to the wheels. If someone could please help find that tonight it would be appreciated i'll be dealing with gathering dynoes and also shipping out some intakes lol gotta keep the business going.

MODERATORS-STICKY ME PLEASE

03BlkSETE

iTrader: (3)

This sound great! What can I do since my car isn't broken in yet and not dyno'd? Should I email any info?

Sorry guys but I just thought of this. Imagine Nissan offers to fix our cars and the fix gives us the 15 extra HP but the "fix" takes away our extra torque!!

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

i'd hold off emailing me unless you have a 2k2-2k3 stock dyno. i've got mine and i know there are several more out there and if we have to pool together to fund a couple more we'll have to.

lcf

iTrader: (6)

Be careful about getting too much attention before the actual case. ALL attorneys want to settle cases of this type OUT OF COURT and so does Nissan. Naturally they'd want to keep it hush hush. Getting the media involved [too early] is a BAD idea. Showing your cards too soon is never a good idea.

Good luck, guys.

BioMaxDDS

iTrader: (1)

steve, you might want to start a new thread. once the thread gets long people are less likely to keep on reading it

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=166163

new thread.