Hey STEVE I emailed you with all my info that you requested on the new thread ok.

Chris

 

thanks i got it.

 

he contacted a good lawyer who will help him so i think he's got it covered

 

My share of the many stock dyno sheets we have.

http://www.poweredbynissan.com/1600mile_StockDyno.jpg

 

yup i hear he's the best ever

 

Goodluck. You may want to start spreading the word to the media via a letter to SCC, Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc stating what people are seeing. I think SCC even dynoed the 2k2 Maxima. I think the rags would be VERY interested in seeing this.


Dave

 

i think LCF was right about turning our cards too early i'll wait a few weeks and see how it goes and if that's necessary then i'd love too, heck i want to know but idon't want to spill the beans yet.
and thanks.

 

so whats being done...i have a 2k1...did they lie to me too???? that would really suck...somone please tell me if 2k1's got screwed over to...if not i will still protest!!!!ha!!!!

 

2k2's and 2k3's

 

DAMN I'LL SUPPORT ANYWAY!!!! BY THE WAY WHATS MY HORSEPOWER DYNOED AT(...AHHH STILL WRITTEN IN CAPS!!!!!)

 

look through here to get an idea what stock 2000 and 2001 maximas dyno

http://forums.maxima.org/search.php?...der=descending

 

i'm definitely down... got a stock 2k2 SE auto.. and the only reason i bought maxima over altima WAS the HP!!! My dealer gave me a same price for a full-option Altima 3.5 and a stock bone SE auto..and i chose Max!!

 

post in the new thread, thanks. this one is cluttereed
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....3&goto=newpost

 

So WHO wants to cough-up the $2-$5,000 deposit money for the attourney??

Who wants to get involved in a two to three year trial and litigation process with a multi-million dollar CAR COMPANY??!!!

Who wants to pay the Litigator $100-150 bucks and hour???!!

Who wants to step-up to the plate and kick this little crusade-off???

Not me - I've got a life.

This is damn near THE SILLIest, most infantile thread I've seen here yet.
Ok - it's true, we were probably the victim of False Advertising. But, engine HP ratings and measurement are HIGHLY subjective processes these days. This = buyer beware.

Motorcycle manufacturers REGULARLY OVERESTIMATE the HP ratings of their bikes to get the competitive "edge" on engine specs.
It is literally accepted in the motorcycle community that Dyno readings and HP numbers are inflated by 10-15% simply because the HP ratings are taken at the CRANK and not the rear-wheel, where the power actually MEETS the pavement, and consequently where MOST Dynomometers MEASURE HP/TQ.

This is NOT the true rating of power to the pavement in any case - it's TORQUE that truly dictates how hard your vehicle launches off the line and pulls stumps from the earth.
For my short-arm engineering opinion - HP is a measurement of TOP-END power, not low-end >> and low-end is where 95% of NON-RACE-CAR DRIVERS use an engine's power.

Simple logic - if you truly think you are a race-car driver on the public streets and NEED 15 more HP:
1) You're kidding yourself
2) You drive like an idiot and need your license revoked

I'm all for being ****ed that my car doesn't truly rate att 260 ponies as billed on my window sticker - but it still feels damn nice when I punch the throttle @ 4k rpms and watch other cars disappear in my mirrors!

Ground yourself gentlemen -- we bought 'em, we gotta live with 'em - or sell 'em. Might as well enjoy the ride >>>>>>>>>

g.r.

 

Steve's talked to him, he's a good guy, i've met him, and settling not doing anything is stupid, you paid for it, why not get what you deserve if you can.

 

this post is prolly the most infantile and pointless one on the org yet. if you don't have anything positive to contribute then take your maxima with only 240hp, not what you paid for, and your comments about not needing 15 more hp. and we don't have to live with it. and also aobut the dyno's actually you know what nothing of what you said has any ground or relevance as we have already looked into all the factors involved and i'm not even gonna dignify your post with any further response or comment, in fact you might even make my ignore list.

everyone else, thanks for you support and i think we might actually get somewhere on this. i'm gonna fax over a bunch more dynoes to the lawyer soon.

 

I am in.

 

Hey Steve, I had a question.
So you saying that Maxima's engine is overrated in hp right, but it is underrated in torque, right?

Doesn't Max put down same torque numbers as G35?

And if new Z only dynos at like 225-230hp, from some dynos that I saw, than it is mad overrated as well.

Sorry for not really related post.
Me and my friend going to dyno my car and his new Z soon. I will email you dynos when I have them.

 

This thread is out of control. The simple solution of course is to just measure HP at the flywheel. You'd have to do it for a whole mess of Maxima's too. Can't build a court case on just one car's numbers. But, who has the ability to dyno the flywheel?

 

the maxima puts down less hp then it should, it puts down about equal numbers to the altima.

and the new Z's dynoing at around 230hp, isn't that far off, it's slightly lower for sure. 287hp * .82(18% loss for a RWD stick) is 235hp so yes they are overrated too.

and kojiro, it's very hard to measure flywheel hp, you need a special dyno to do that, and we aren't building a case on just one cars numbeers we have almost a dozen dynoes being faxed over that are all consistently about 12-15 hp low of what they should be and more people dynoing over the next week.

 

I have been following this thread. I too have a 02 auto. I think there is absolutely some truth to this miss conception of HP by Nissan. One person will defenitly not make a difference, but all of us together will make some noise... But if we really want to get heard, we got to get to the media level. We should definetly contact car and driver or motor trend and e-mail this thread...,. or write to them... I know everyone is busy with there lives, but this is our car we are talking about...too be specific our Max's... We spent some hard earned money for our cars and should get what we bought...a 255bhp engine...not a 240bhp engine...I will make some phone calls to these magazines and e-mails too... and see what can happen from there.... I hope everyone will help me out too....

 

this is good.... i want my extra 15 HP

 

What else does your lawyer need beside some dynos?

 

In a class action lawsuit, you don't have to worry about forking over lawyer fees up front. Most lawyers will not charge you if they do not win the case, and most lawyers will not take a case if they think they can't win it. Come on people...we're talking about nissan doing a RECALL here. One person is not going to have to front the money. False advertising is illegal. This falls under a watch-dog group, we just provide the "evidence that somthing is up..." and someone else does the investigation. We just need to find the right group to blow this open and get the word out, Nissan will be forced to take action or end up in court.
I doubt they want to end up in court, and I doubt they want the word out that their hp #'s are questionable especially with the launch of the new Z...Murano, etc. Nissan is trying to turn their company around, and they're doing it with new cars and BS #'s.

 

exactly with a suit like this against a big company the lawyer will take it if he feels there is a good chance he will win cus tha'ts the only way he'll get paid and from talking with im last night he sounded like it was solid footing and he have a case. I'd like to get a magazine involved but i think it might be too early for that.

 

Is there a way to get an "expert" witness for this matter? For example, get a reputable mechanic somewhere that would testify that Nissan's #'s are indeed incorrect. I'm not sure myself, but some people here are claiming that Nissan's #'s are legit because there are a number of legal ways to calculate HP, and perhaps Nissan used the method which yielded the highest results. I think we need to be CERTAIN on this matter because a lawyer may seem interested in taking the case cause he sees major $$$ involved (potentially), but may not know how HP is measured. Perhaps contacting one of the mags would straighten this debate out, and once we have a DEFINITIVE word on how it's supposed to be measured, and even by those measurements Nissan's HP do not add up, we have a MAJOR piece of evidence against them.

I also think that Nissan would not want to take this to trial because that would automatically create negative hype, and even if it turns out that Nissan measured their HP in legal ways, the reputation damage will be done because there will be a grain of doubt instilled in all potential Nissan consumers. I think we have a good thing going here!

 

even if that theory is true, and i dont think it is, they would still be guilty of misrepresentaion, they can't take the same engine and put it in different cars and measure the hp differently to get different results and then use that as a big marketing push for one car, that's still illegal. and i'm sure we can get people to attest to the standard horse power losses in cars. all we would even have to do it round up a number of stock dynoes of other FWD cars and figure out the loss on all them. but i'm sure there are experts are motor trend, car and driver and other mags that would be able to testify to that and if not, any experienced dyno technician would also be able to. and your right, we will get our evidence and nissan will not want this to go to trial, in the end it will be very bad for them whether they win or lose.

 

I don't think it has been brought up before, but if the lawyer is willing to shell out the costs of such testing then why not just get a real engine dyno done? That way we get the real numbers at the crank and eliminate other factors such as % of loss from the drivetrain and such.

 

How about going through the parts list ( Service Manual or Parts Ordering DB) between the Altima 3.5 and the Maxima 3.5... if they are the same engine it is pretty impossible that one would make 240HP and the second 255HP!!

How about dyno of an stock Altima next to stock Maxima... same day and same test conditions.

However, I believe that the Altima Engine is the one under-rated...it is the same 255Hp engine in the Maxima...

 

I did 2 dyno runs with my 2K2 6speed, before any performance mods. My best numbers were: 206.4 HP & 223.3 TQ

 

There is definately a way to get expert witnesses.....the lawyer will take care of that most likely, or you could easily by picking up a phone

 

i'm going to have to FIRMLY disagree with this there is absolutely no evidence to support the theory going that way.

this would mean that the "255" engine would experience a 20% loss in standard tranny form and a 23% loss in auto form. those number are RIDICULOUSLY high and completely impossible. so that leaves only one path, they both have 240hp engines. sorry your wrong.

 

Do you think the lawyer is trying to lose money on the case? Why would he shell out the money for the dynos, you guys brought up the case.....like steve said if you have a dyno, send it to him by email

 

Steve, can't you get an engine dyno done?

 

those machines are very costly expensive and they are complicated to get done, and honestly i don't think we will need one with all the other evidence we have for us, the best piece of evidence being that stock auto maximas and altimas dyno at the same hp with the same tranny and supposedly 15 more hp for the maxima. even with the 6-spd dynos to the 5-spd it's good evidence too but nissan i'm sure will try and say the 6-spd loses more hp but for them to try and it it looses 6% and just HAPPENS to be the same output at the wheels as the altima won't get very far either.

 

there is an engine dyno over here in GA. its at a shop called sunbelt performance which is a very credable name across the world. they have an engine dyno. not sure how much it is but i have seen it in action and it is crazy. anyone in GA with a stock 2k2-2k3 wanna do an engine dyno down the road just let me know.

will
player98@bellsouth.net

 

I hope you guys get results. However I believe nothing will happen. For example it is known that bigger/heavier wheels will affect dyno readings. Could the max pick up some lost power by dynoing with 36lb 15in wheels vs the stock 48lb 17s? Has anyone checked their ignition timing to make sure it is within spec. Over the years most cars come from the factory with the timing retarded 1-3 degree more than stock. 2nd how do we know how much torque is lost in the drivetrain?

Does the torque loss increase with rpm or stay the same? What is the engine's coolant temp during the dyno runs? I'm sure as everyone that goes to the track knows a cool engine drops ET by 1-4 tenths vs being at normal operating temp. The best evidence to get in this case is by an engine dyno. Also someone has to do is remove the engine and its EFI harness + ECU. Goto the engine dyno place and have the runs done. Hell one can find a wrecked 2k2 and just buy the motor/harness/ECU then have it tested.

From my own experience my auto 87 maxima with just a K&N panel fiter + timing advance dyno'd 112whp/140wtq. Now it was rated at 152hp @ 5200rpm, 168tq @ 3600rpm. Then I found out that average 4th gen auto's dyno around 145-152whp/153-160wtq. I got to thinking if the 4th gen auto's lose say 35-40wtq, then mine should too. Given that I had 190k miles that seems reasonable. So that means that my car is clearing doing around 175-180tq @ flywheel. I don't believe a panel filter and timing would gain 10-14tq (although it could hehe). Another thing has anyone tried 94-100 octane gas to see if it increases engine torque? With a simple datalogger one can see how much KR (knock retard) the ECU is reading with different octane.

 

Next time I go to the dyno I want to try putting a fuel gallons of 101 octane gas in. I could bring the gas along and do a before and after dyno.

 

hey dmbmaxima, i have a 02 auto. and i dynoed at 205.6 hp and 213.9 tq. and that is with your frankencar intake with k&n filter and cattman's catback exhaust. and you said STOCK autos' have around 196-197 hp? and i do very believe that YOUR frankencar intake does have a 10 hp gain. but the catback exhaust did not have any gains in this? BUT, IF the catback exhaust DID have gains, that means in STOCK i will be pulling LOWER hp, correct? i will do another dyno test, but this time STOCK, i haven't had the time. but i just wanted to ask you if i am on the same page as you are.

 

aight, do it