spock

iTrader: (5)

It would be nice if the gas gods listed the ethanol content, (and I think it should be manditory), like they do here. We have 87, (up to 10% E), 89, (up to 5% E), and 91, (0% E). Also, @ select stations 94 is available, but I never go there so I don't know if there is any statement on E.

homeyclaus

iTrader: (1)

Assumptions abound in this thread.

Ethanol is not automatically bad. It might surprise you, but I have owned at least one vehicle that back in the day when E5 was optional, got better mileage on it. On the flip side, my current Maxima ran on 87 E0 octane for much of its life in Canada with no ill effects, summer or winter.

The ethanol corrosion argument is interesting, simply because much of the information being used is 1980's vintage. Everyone here realizes that all manufacturers selling vehicles here are also selling in the E100 fuel markets, right? That would be Brazil, mainly. EVERY manufacturer has experience with what's needed to make a fuel system that runs fuel from E0-100. Corrosion inhibitors are on the market today that work, and have been available since the late 80's.

I agree with posters that how ethanol is being mandated in this country is a political process, made ugly with subsidies and all other sorts of political stupid. Corn is pretty expensive to derive ethanol from, and not particularly efficient either.

Energy content vs. fuel octane ratings: you all know they're unrelated right? The octane rating is the "anti-knock index" which would loosely equate to "burn speed". Higher octane = slower burn speed. Higher compression = faster burn speed. You can advance the timing because you have a longer burn. Faster = hotter, which is why it's bad. LPG (propane) and CNG (natural gas) used as a motor fuel have higher "octane" ratings than gasoline, about 100, and contain significantly less energy. Ethanol up to a point raises octane when combined with certain additives. Pure ethanol has about a 92 octane rating based on the formula used on gas pumps here.

Distributorless ignition systems such as found on our generation Maximas don't really have a way of allowing us to advance the timing. You can install a new map, either by swapping a ROM with a soldering iron or using a piggyback. Modern systems will advance engine timing until the knock sensor detects preignition, and when the knock sensor works it will trigger much earlier than you'll be able to notice the pinging. This is how they adjust for fuel. The other sensors deal with air mass, air temperature, and so on and all this goes into the calculation as to how long the fuel injector pulse needs to be. It's not that complicated.

T_Behr904

Ethanol argument dating back to the 80's? Yes it caused problems back then, and it still causes problems now. It's not an argument, it's fact. Living in Florida there are alot of boats and yachts, and marinas sell ethanol free gasoline because even small amounts of ethanol destroys fiberglass fuel tanks. It dissolves the lining of the fiberglass tank and creates a sludge and eventually the tank will leak fuel and become a fire hazard. Ethanol also more easily absorbs water, which can cause problems if you commute in traffic and the cars idles alot. Older and classic cars, motorcycles, even small engines in lawn equipment, generators, etc, are more likely to experience problems with swelling, hardening and breakdown of rubber hoses, carburetor and fuel pump gaskets and seals. This can eventually lead to fuel leaks which also can lead to fires. A friend of mine who works at a classic car repair and restoration shop was talking to me about how many fuel related problems they have seen ever since the federal government mandated the use of ethanol a few years back. They have a early 60's model Porsche 356 that actually caught on fire due to a leak in one of the Weber carburetors. When he removed the carburetor on the other side of the engine that didn't get burned, the seals and gaskets of the carburetor and the fuel lines going into it were very broken down. This is just one example of many he has told me about. Most of their work that comes in is actually fuel related, and customers end up spending thousands of dollars replacing fuel lines, hoses, gaskets and seals for the entire fuel system. For those that don't know, carburetor rebuild kits are expensive, especially if they are for Webers. So to wrap this all up, ethanol is complete garbage, and it's not cost effective to produce, and drives up the cost of food from Corn Flakes to steaks. It also reduces fuel economy, which means you have to buy more, which is counterproductive on the government trying to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Now the federal government is talking about raising the 10% blend up to 20%, so let's see what happens once that is enacted. Then this thread will become much more interesting.

homeyclaus

iTrader: (1)

You list problems with components your Maxima does not have. Unless you installed Weber carbs.

Marine fuel, for whatever reason, has different corrosion inhibitors, or ones that don't work in the marine environment. Last I checked we talked about cars made after 1989 (although my reference to the car that preferred ethanol fuel blends was a 1988 model year).

But you're failing to read - I agree with you that the way ethanol is made in the US is a dirty mix of politics, stupid, whatever. I just think there are a lot of 1980's assumptions thrown about ethanol blend fuels that are no longer relevant, which is why the anti-ethanol people come across as such kooks.

T_Behr904

Will an up to 10% blend possibly cause problems down the road for my Maxima? Probably not, but it's still too soon to tell. However, if the legislation passes to up the amount to 20%, then I'm gonna worry. I have 160,000 miles on my car, and right now I can't afford to do any major repair work to it without having to apply for another credit card. I just recently paid off alot of debt and it took me several years of working two jobs to do it, so the longer I can stay debt free the better.

ffcbairn

I disagree, ethanol IS inherently bad in a system designed to use gasoline. If you have X volume of E0 gasoline and that is expected to return Y amount of combustibility/power then you replace that E0 with an equal amount of E10 then automatically Y is reduced because ethanol does not have the same energy content. Therefore in order to gain the same amount of energy X must be increased. Your consequences are either that you have a power shortfall or an increase in fuel consumption, more likely some unhappy medium between the 2.

That sounds automatically bad to me. In order to turn my engine, my engine requires more fuel than what the manufacturer calls for, PERIOD.

As for assumptions, I think too many people are not reading completely and are ASSUMING people's questions are statements. I did not state that octane rating and energy content were related only asked if the presence of ethanol might alter the stated octane requirements because the octane rating of ethanol is not the same as gasoline, therefore the octane rating of the used gasoline is lower than that of the end octane rating because ethanol has a higher rating. AGAIN That has nothing to do with energy content, I am saying that E0 89 octane is close to 91 octane E10 because if ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline then math dictates that gasoline must be of a lower octane rating than 91 in order to have achieved an end average octane of 91. True or false? The only assumption I make is that mixing ethanol and gasoline does not alter their inherent individual octane ratings.

To restate what I am asking: If I fill up with 91 E10 that means my fuel is 9 parts A which = gasoline of X octane rating and 1 part B which ethanol of 99.15 octane rating (source wikipedia) This means 9A + B / 10 = AKI rating of 91, 9A + 99.15 / 10 = 91, multiply by 10 on each side gives you 9A + 99.15 = 910.... subtract 99.15 from both sides gives you 9A = 810.85, divide by 9 gives you A = 90.094, the octane rating of gasoline within 91 octane E10.... so now my question is ***Does this 90 octane gasoline within 91 octane E10 have a "burn speed" of 90 (of the individual gasoline) or 91 (of the overall mixture) with the 10% ethanol retaining it's burn speed of 99.15 thereby leading to varying burn speed within the mixed fuel.

My last question, if gasoline within that mixture retains its 90 octane rating and Nissan meant we are not to use less than 91 octane gasoline then would that not mean using 91 octane E10 was going below Nissan's standard?

T_Behr904

It would be interesting to actually talk a chemist that works at a refinery to figure out how they maintain their advertised octane ratings at the pumps if gas can have anywhere between 1% and 10% ethanol blend.

ffcbairn

True, that is the real question at hand; Does blend retain its molecular burn properties or achieve something like the average rating? My position is that if it took on the average rating then it would have changed the molecule and therefore not be gasoline any more. I believe that with 91 octane E10, the lower octane gasoline retains its properties and therefore 91 octane E10 has a higher chance of knock than does E0 gasoline.

I am just guessing this I know nothing about the subject beyond the basic math I posted before but I stand behind the reasoning until a chemist tells me otherwise.

T_Behr904

Is there a way to have a gas sample tested, much like getting an oil sample tested?

ffcbairn

Ethanol presence test kit. It's just a simple reagent kit though, don't know how accurate it would be what % of ethanol is required to react (for example would it pick up 1% ethanol).

It seems like a pretty big hassle to test gas a tank at a time, have to break out the little beaker, squirt just a little gas in there, add a drop of that reagent and then dispose of it all afterwards.

05SickSer

Don't think this has been posted yet, but this site has a list of what cities and what gas stations have ethanol free gas stations in your area. Select the state then look and find your city.

http://pure-gas.org/

T_Behr904

That's the website I used to find the ethanol free stations in my city

ffcbairn

Yeah I am pretty sure I posted it when I said there are only a few listed stations for all of nevada, none in Las Vegas. Then I was accused of spreading misinformation about the gas stations here, asked somebody to tell me where these ethanol free stations are, and have patiently waited with no response. I think half the people on here only read the last 2 posts in any given thread

T_Behr904

The only downside I see to the non ethanol gas is the price. It is considerably higher than the government subsidized ethanol blended gas. Also it's only available in mid-grade 89 around my area. So far I have good luck with Shell's 93 octane V-Power gas. I used it in my modded Grand Prix GTP (supercharged) and had no problems with it at all. That was actually the best gas it ran with, so I've stuck with it ever since.