?? By extending the gears, do you mean cut down on the internal slippage in the TC ??

If so, that would be very interesting... At the track, I run with full transmission pressure (DR open) and with 23" M&Hs and the Shift_Fast_2 shifting at 6400, I'm well into 3rd gear at the end. (104-105 mph). This is with stock ECU.

Are you thinking that if the TC clutches could be locked at say 3000 RPMS and stay locked through the 1/4 mile, the car could pull harder through the gears? I guess I just never understood when the TC clutches were engaged and why ?? And with a extended revlimit, I see your point about hitting the traps in 2nd gear - with larger tires, anyway..

Hummmm...

 

I don't think you're going to gain much by locking up the TC, certainly not enough to keep you in 2nd gear unless its only 1/8th mile.

Below is a pic of what difference the TC makes when it locks up. This is 3rd gear and the TC will only lock up in 3rd if the O/D is off, otherwise it only locks up in 4th, which is why I always raced with O/D on.

Its around 5500 in that graph from my WBo2.

 

If I'm reading your graph, it shows a dip in RPMs at your marker ?? The earlier conversation makes me wonder what would happen if the TC can be forced to lock up clutches when you want it to....

I haven't looked at the FSM yet, but I'm pretty sure there is a wire or two going to the tranny that are left un-molested - so far.. ..

Using the Shift_Fast_2 to shift and control nitrous at the same time has been very useful. If locking the TC clutch is possible at any RPM, what RPMs should that happen? Maybe rev to 5000 and lock, reach preset RPM, shift_fast and unlock, reach 5000 and lock, repeat until the trap...

Gotta read the FSM... Thanks for the graph.

 

After you have experienced a few lockups you will change your mind about wanting it. Its almost like shifting without the DR or Shiftfast mod. Its like spending a second or two in suspending animation waiting for something to happen. Also the more power you put down the slower it will lockup just like the transmission shifting under more power.

 

Oh - well, it sounded like a good idea ......

Do you think there's less loss in the tranny with the TC locked up, disregarding the shift delays? And once it's locked up, like at 5000 in first gear or maybe at the 1-2 shift, when the spray cuts so it should lock quicker, and if it's kept locked from there on, could I let the Shift_Fast control the shifts? I think I'm trying to talk myself into trying something here...

 

I dug into the wiring harness again and located the green/black wire that controls the torque converter clutch, cut it, connectorized it so I can re-connect it, and ran a N.O. SPDT switch into the cabin, with one side connected to fused battery 12 volts.

I left the lever in Drive and the manual shift_fast was in Normal mode. When you flip the switch, the converter locks - right now. Any gear, any load ( I wasn't spraying - yet), and any speed. It seems like the RPMs drop about 20% (this is my Edge TC) and it feels like a manual transmission.

Turns out that the Buick turbo GN guys use a lock-up switch when racing and claim gaining .1-.2 sec ET and + 1-2 MPH in the 1/4.

I sure don't know where this is going, but one thought is to use the SHift_Fast_2 to engage the TC clutch (with a nitrous cut) instead of shifting into 3rd gear, to keep up RPMS when the MSD-controlled shift to 3rd gear now happens. This way the engine would drop back to maybe 5500 instead of 5000 when shifting. We'll see - more experiments are needed.

 

Ya that's what I hoped. With my extended reline I can get to about 90mph and with the tc locked up I should be finishing the 1/4

 

Yup - I remembered what you said - I think you're close with your xtended redline.. I'm gonna got out tomorrow and find out. I'll use the manual shift_fast, run out the engine holding in second gear and engage the clutch at 6500, then see what the numbers look like. Of course, I'm using a stock ECU, but the difference is what we want to know, right?

With the switch, it locks up fast and hard. I'd like to spray into it.

 

Maybe we should call and ask Edge about locking the TC up while accelorating; if it will do any damage.

 

Since I spent all my time today pulling the engine out of my buddy's GTP, I didn't get around to doing anything, but tomorrow I should be trying run #2 of the 4th gear test. I may put in an even larger fuse during the test to make sure it doesn't blow during testing. Do they make a 25 amp "small" fuse? (I have a 20 in right now in place of the stock 15). I think the fuse blowing was what my problem was last time I tried to test.

 

I think they have up to 30a in small fuses. I think they are pink?

 

Up above, Jime warned about clutch slippage if you engage the clutch while under full power. That's consistent with how the transmission shifts under power. I've got my Shift_Fast_2 cutting nitrous during the shifts, so no big deal to make it engage the clutch instead as the programmed 2-3 shift happens.

But- if you're not spraying, then something else would have to be cut during the shift. I could cut the ignition power at the second the MSD switch hits the programmed RPM, or even just some of the coils. When the MSD drops below that point, the ignition could come back on. Huummmm.... This would generally useful for SC or turbo or strong N/A cars. You might get a code or two when the cut happens, but oh well...

 

I doubt that a shift solenoid draws over 1 or 1 1/2 amps..... If you blow a 20 amp fuse, something else is wrong.....

 

I blew a 15 amp already trying to do that

 

Then something else is wrong... ?? disconnect the wires from the transmission and try it again ??

It's 12 volts in from the fuse to the pair of wires going to the switch bank, and then out to the A and B solenoids, right? That's gotta work....

 

You seem to forget I'm not just using the cig. lighter for that alone. The cig. lighter is also powering my RPM switch and my VIAS solenoid as far as 12v goes. My guess is, that as-is, those couple things alone are putting it at ~15 amps and the solenoids drew that extra little amount to push it over the fuse's limit. I put in a 20 just to be safe, but I'm thinking for added safety I may go with a 25, especially if I ever actually use my cig. lighter for anything

 

Ah, so.... That is working the cig. lighter pretty hard. I always remember that the wiring is sized to go along with the fuse, when the car is built. The OEM fuse is the upper limit for the circuit, so it you draw 30 amps through a circuit that was originally made for 15 amps, the wiring can fail. Smoke happens, or the wire opens somewhere.

I put in some new in-line fuses for my electric MEVI controller and NX heater and five solenoids and other nitrous miscellanous stuff. Keeps me from knocking out something vital if I draw too much juice. I have three 30-amp fused circuits added, right at the battery. They have saved my azzz more than once. The only OEM fuse I have that is over-spec is the ECC fuse for the ignition coils, which went from 15 to 20 amps, so that my ignition booster module can start up OK. It's a switching power supply that apparently has a high surge current when it starts up. At least, it left me stranded when I first drove it around - no problems since then.

You can buy those in-line fuse sockets with pigtails at most places that sell fuses....

 

Hmm...Then I think I may go buy one of those and just route it into the car like I did with the original shift_fast wiring (same way you did). You're right, I don't need to risk it.

 

Yeah, it's hard to race with wiring smoke in your eyes......

 

I just posted some stuff in the Nitrous forum about my playtime this afternoon. I really like it when the TC clutch is locked and you're spraying.

I think the clutch can be turned on with a switch around 2000-3000 RPMs and just left there - plus you can switch it ON or OFF anywheeeere you want. You can really feel the difference.

I tried switching it ON and OFF in different gears and speeds, but it's hard to tell exact numbers that way. Drive it - you'll like it.

Come on, spring! and the track season...

EDIT: After thinking this over, I think I'll connect the TC clutch wire to the WOT relay, so that it's Normal during non-WOT throttle, and locks the clutch when I go WOT. That should remove most of the thinking from the situation. That's a SPDT relay contact required to make it work both ways....

 

This is a copy of what I posted in the Nitrous forum last night, but I posted it here because of the extra testing of the torque converter clutch.


################################################## ##

" I just came back from running the on-ramps and Interstate tonight, armed with the leftovers of my 10 lb hot bottle. Well, first I launched with the shift_fast in first gear and the clutch locked - and I quickly hit the rev limiter a couple of times.. It makes the car bounce around on the road.

I put the shift_fast back into Normal mode, put the tranny into Drive, made sure the clutch was off, and made another standing-start launch. This was more normal, the tires broke loose and spun until the car went into second gear, and still definitely pulled harder.

I turned around at my usual exit, to go the other way, got out on the highway in second gear, still clutch-off, and nailed it. The car jumped hard, blasted up to 80 in a heartbeat, I nailed the second stage and let off at 105, a few seconds later. This time, no massive wheelspin or sliding. Weather conditions were almost identical to last time out.

I then headed home and scouted a 4-lane close to home until there was no traffic for 1/2 mile, stopped, powerbraked, and nailed it. Same deal - massive wheelspin in first, shifted to second, nailed the second stage and ran up to 100 MPH rather quickly.

Engaging the torque converter clutch makes a definite and serious improvement in how the car launches and pulls. The new nitrous pipeline also makes a definite difference in power. Using both at the same time is - exciting - ....

With the clutch on, the first gear became uncontrollable on the 10" BFG DRs. Second gear breaks loose easily, as well. I never tried a first and second stage highway run with the clutch engaged - I'll need more room to try that.

Maybe tomorrow - it's supposed to be reasonable weather again. "


The difference is pretty dramatic - now what ???

 

Sounds good Harold. Wish it wasn't snowing up here and I had an engine in my car.

I'm wondering what would be the best setup considering what you have tested so far?

Starting of in 1st may or may not be ok depending on how it hooks and how much it raises the gear ratio. However if it gives less slip that may overcome any gear ratio difference. If no maybe have it come on at the 1-2 shift. I guess it will just take some testing with individual setups.

Be interesting to see what it does out of the hole with slicks in both configurations. My year ended to early to do anymore testing.

Anyway keep up the good work.

 

It looks like winter is here starting tomorrow night, so I better figure this out before the snow hits. After stewing on this last night/today, I think I need to make N/A tests of full-stop launches with and without the TC clutch engaged - if I can. I haven't tried to come to a full stop with the clutch engaged - maybe I can't, so I'll have to gate the clutch from the WOT switch and do a rolling start from a known RPM.

Honestly, with the clutch engaged, the car feels a lot stronger. Last night, I did a with/without-clutch on a rolling first gear launch using the first 75-shot, and with the clutch ON, I got massive tire-spin on the DRs. With the clutch OFF, same rolling start, I got some tire spin, but the car behaved much better... Truly weird, and unexpected...

With my 6AN nitrous pipe, the car makes more power - and a louder exhaust - with both stages. It did not fade at the top end like before - just kept on pulling until I ran out of room. This is still a 75-shot plus another 75-shot, on Sunoco 104, and I still have my engine intact!

I'm going to try the N/A launches tonight, if I can do that - other it's a rolling start N/A. I bet I'm going to have to engage the clutch with the WOT switch, though... My N/A power is pretty puny. We'll see what happens....

 

to understand well, this is like a tcm-override-user selectable type of tranny mod!!! WOW!!! Done all this by yourself?? Genius to say the least.

 

Is this a way to control the torque converter lockup before 4th gear???
In any forward gear?? I read a bit throughout the pages and it seems like this...

 

To answer both posts, there's been a lot of input on the shift_fast and Shift_Fast controllers, and someone else brought up the torque converter clutch question.

Yes, you can control the TC clutch in any gear - it's pretty simple - today's question is, what do you do with it? I'm still exploring that one, for myself, but I'll post anything I find that seems useful. Others will do the same, I'm sure.....

 

Oh you betcha on that one

Today my car had a hiccup or something, went to leave the parking lot at school and suddenly solenoid A wouldn't engage. Tried looking at my wiring to see if any connections were loose, nope. Shut the car off, started it up, same deal. Shut it off again, started it up, works fine. Go figure. NONE of my connections were even remotely loose. I could tug on them and move the whole wiring harness

Winter hit here last night, so I won't be doing any testing for a while now either It also sucks to try and get any wiring done or anything just because it's so cold, even in the garage. I'm going back and soldering all of my engine bay connections (currently TIGHTLY crimped) here as soon as the weather warms up a little and wiring in the "4th gear 12v wiring" again on it's own source and testing that out.

I may also experiment with the TC lockup once I see what you get done with it, grey. You just tap into that wire on the harness right next to the A and B solenoid wires, right?

Why must all of us currently working on it be up north?

 

There's been a lot of brain-power and effort applied to the shift_fast concept. You should know...

The TC clutch lockup is promising.... you need to locate the dark-green/black wire coming off the tranny connector - don't have a FSM here - you can get to it upstairs where you got Solenoid A and B wires, and if you install a SPDT switch with the center pin going to the tranny, one pin going to the original wire in the harness going back to the tranny computer, and one going to a switched ( and fused! ) 12 source, you can switch back and forth between Normal and Race positions for the TC clutch. Sound familiar?

Be careful - I have NOT engaged the clutch at idle or when the car isn't moving - even at low speed, it feels like a manual transmission !! I have engaged it when accelerating in different gears, and my Edge converter locks up right now.

Yup, winter bites... I guess I can work on the leading-edge hood scoop (a TRUE CAI) next, so I can install belly pans.... Have fun.

 

I just came in from a nice quiet N/A drive with the Maxima. I left the tranny in pure-stock mode, made one launch to remind meself just how slow a stock Max automatic really is, then played with the TC converter switch.

I can't come to a full stop with the clutch engaged - the engine lugs down directly with the car's speed, and if I stopped, the engine would stop. No launches with the clutch already ON, it seems.

I tried a launch, clutch OFF, and switched in back ON around 3000. You can feel the clutch grab the engine when you do that. All the rest of the gears work fine, automatically shifting up and down with the clutch locked ON, except when coming to a halt.

In one case, I was going up a mild hill in third gear at 2600, and dropped to 1500 when the clutch was switched on. Usually the difference wasn't so large, maybe 300-400 RPMs.

The car seemed to be as fast launching with the converter engaged as when it's not. Only a track event would tell for sure....

No spray tonight, just checking the cluch during launches. DON'T come to a complete halt with the clutch engaged - you will stall the engine. 200 RPMs is possible, I know....

I'm def. going to use a WOT switch to lock the TC for launching, although a MSD 8969 set to bring it on at 3000 would work as well, I think, at least for racing. This is going to be - entertaining -.... Another tool for the racers to use, along with the Shift_Fast_2 controller.

 

Hopefully I can add the TC switch before I go to the track, I don't know if I have time.

 

Get a toggle switch connected to a pair of wires, connect the pair as described above, run the wires under the edge of the hood, open the driver's door, throw the switch on the seat, shut the hood and door. You're installed. Go race - but don't engage the clutch until 3000 RPMs. Be surprised - then Win.

 

So grey, you describe it as "feeling like a manual." In what way do you mean that? I'm a tad confused...

 

You should have seen MY eyeballs when I nailed it w/75-shot in first gear on 10"DRs - geeze...

With the TC clutch engaged, when you slow down, you feel the engine dragging down the car. When you hit the throttle, there's no immediate RPM jump because the TC is slipping (doing its job) - you're directly connected from the flywheel to the transmission - it feels like you're driving a manual tranny car. You just can't come to a stop - you have to release the clutch first. Otherwise, the engine stalls out - just like a manual shift car.

Try it - you'll like it. But it's weird.....

EDIT: As of 1-15-2007, this is the "Clutch_ON" mod - kinda complements the "shift_fast" and electronic "Shift_Fast_2" mods, you know.....

 

lol, cool... I already rev match my auto when downshifting, everyone always says "Wow, i thought you were a stick" seriously..lol

 

Well, try the shift_fast and the Clutch_ON mods, and YOU will think you're driving a stick....

 

Wait 'til you see the control my new switch panel will give me There will be a switch to control everything I could possibly want

 

So does this mean you're going to try the Clutch_ON mod now? Or have you created the newest ricer mod of hundreds of lighted switches in the cabin???

Seriously, it's worth a try. It feels so weird when all that torque converter slippage goes away..... I wonder if the Clutch_ON and the Jime-inspired shift_fast mods eliminate most or all of the power losses in the automatic tranny ??

 

My switch panel is just going to be a flat panel painted black to match the interior with all the switches I've added/am going to add to my interior, just all in one spot and presented in a clean and fashionable manner You'll see.

Something like this:


Eliminating all the losses, you think? I'm curious, what would locking up the clutch do on the dyno?

 

Only one way to find out, bud... I'm locked in with snow and ice, so it's up to you now.....

If you had been with me when I sprayed at first-gear at 3000 with the clutch ON, and the 10" DRs broke loose and the engine hit the rev limiter 4 or 5 times before I could let up, you would want to find out...... Strap 'er down on the dyno, put the shift_fast in 2nd gear, run up to 3000, engage the Clutch_ON, and spray the beast.

You can be the first guy on the ORG to find out.

EDIT: that is a tidy switch layout - but how are you going to shift_fast there?

 

But I don't have nitrous I'm also locked down with bad weather unfortunately Not snow, but rain, rain, rain.

What do you mean how am I going to shift_fast? Don't you see the buttons? This one will stay manual for now since the shift_fast_2 is unnecessary at my current power levels, nor do I have the money to build one at the moment.