Niz-Dat

I am not offended in the least. I am new to this engine and am trying things to get more power out of it. After the dyno run I was very pleased with the increase in torque. With the stock motor it would out pull a 300HP 240sx from the corners but had no top end. It will be interesting to see how it runs now.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

VQ30 w/ VTC's? Maybe w/ Z33 software, 208 whp is 'easy'

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I don't see any working VTC's in that pic... and he's running a Motec (full standalone).

Obviously the headers (might as well say full exhaust) and the Motec controlling AFR (and more importantly timing) are factors, but I'm wondering about the contribution of the clutch/tranny setup. That is one tiny clutch compared to stock diameter, almost half actually... think about the reduction in rotating inertia.

Niz-Dat, I assume that Jerico is the WC4? If you are willing to post them, what are your chosen gear ratios and FD?

This engine might be capable of a little more than we think, depending on what's bolted on/paired with it. This thread is making me look forward to seeing what my DEK with cams will put down.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Yup, just the solenoids/phasers

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Nice engine build and from my area! Seattle. But to me (uneducated guess), that looks like a VQ35 as the oil filler cap and dipstick in the VQ35 locations.

No spacer on that intake manifold? Man that clutch setup is weird! Clutch/pp but on a auto flex plate? Funny looking clutch actuation too. direct acutation?

speed racer

iTrader: (10)

Is this being run on pump gas?

Niz-Dat

The vtc phasers are just to block off the oil passages. When you use the Nismo heads they have the ports for the 3.5 IM so I put it on. I did not have room under the hood to fit the TB with an adapter so I moved it down where I have room. The clutch is a full race clutch, it is either on or off, no slipping with a quartermaster hydraulic throw out bearing. The tranny is a four speed with 1:87, 1:57, 1:26, 1.0 gearing. I thought that with the 3.5 injectors instead of the 3.0 injectors that it would be way too rich but we barely took out any fuel to get it close so the extra air from the 3.5 IM must have compensated for the extra fuel. And it runs on 92 octane

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

What AFR are you shooting for? Got any data logs for it(anything i.e. timing/AFR )?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

He's using nismo heads which are essentially (there's a little more to 'em) ported and polished VQ35 head castings with VQ30-sized combustion chambers, hence the VQ35 valve covers and VTC solenoids.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

liqidvenom

iTrader: (6)

thats normally the size of race clutch setups but im thinking that maybe his motec is playing a larger factor here then we know

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yes I know that's a race clutch and it's not unusual in itself but compared to every other dyno of a 3.0 that has been on a 4th gen Maxima drive train, be it auto or 5-spd, with stock sized clutch. Significantly different dynamics/inertia etc etc.

I doubt the Motec is the key thing here. These engines are not knock limited in my experience, you can run optimal timing on pump gas using an EU for example. Advancing the timing further from that point won't gain you anything just because you're doing it on a Motec. He may have a good tune, no doubt, but it's nothing that couldn't be done with an EU on a non-VTC'd 3.0.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

He might not have been running pump gas at the time of the dyno. It is a race car after all.



Edit: Nevermind. I see what you're saying now Dandy.

Niz-Dat

I just checked the program for the stock VQ 30 at 208HP and the initial timing at 7000 rpm is 43 deg but at 10% load Kpa and at 7000rpm and 90% load it is at 37.7 deg. The Graph pretty much stays this way down to 3000 rpm. Also the 260hp was with pump gas, I was worried about detonation due to the smaller chambers in the head but it was not an issue. I will have to download from the ecu to get the timing for the other motor. And we set the A/f at 13.0

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yep that proves my point, thanks. We are seeing optimal timing on these things (and VQ35's I might add) at around 35-38 deg (under full load of course). And that's on pump gas (say up to 94 octane). Light load/partial throttle/cruise timing can easily be low-mid forty's normally.

Did you get my PM?

speed racer

iTrader: (10)

Damn that is alot of timing advance. And to think that back in the days JWT and TS were only running moderate timing advance. Great info.

95BLKMAX

iTrader: (10)

niiiiiiiiiiiiice!!!! I didnt think the 3.0 could run that much timing. But then again if thet Nismo heads are "essencially" 3.5 casts, then they'll have much improved cooling characteristics that Im sure help in allowing this beast to run that much timing.

Great work!

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Well unless your machinist/engine builder added some material to the combustion chamber it should be ~46cc, which is the same as OEM VQ30 heads. So your compression ratio hasn't really changed assuming you are using the stock pistons.


Did you get the Stage 1 or Stage 2 heads?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I've been running timing like that for almost a year since we got the EU working, so have a couple others like Jime (on his VQ35). We have mentioned it in several threads going back months ago... and that's why I've said many times and will continue to say that the VQ is not knock limited, that optimal timing can be run on pump gas.

95turbo gxe

iTrader: (25)

I fulley agree with Danny on this. I maxed out my timing on the dyno on pump gas. I was running 14degree advance before it stopped making power. then for the street I went back to 13 across the rpm range to 7300rpms on pump gas Good ole 93 oct And I had verry little knock read by the eu. l

MaximaZX

ive seen some s14s with 350z motors, i believe those are vq35s, right? ive seen 270hp dyno runs, very respectable

MattyBlacc

iTrader: (3)

just got tuned and dynoed. 247.46whp and 240.72 torque

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Semi close, but no cigar yet.

abailey269

Here is a link to Performance Factory's VQ35 making 303 whp on pump gas LINK HERE

nismology

iTrader: (8)

^^

LINK HERE for thread and discussion about that 350Z.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (6)

I am finally proud of a 350z engine build i can say.... I can probally assume it would have cost upwars of 10-15k for all the parts and man hrs put into this build, but still sweet non the less

also he was wrong about this:

Domestic guys gain 100hp more at the wheels then what the car was rated at by accident...we have seen what they can do N/A if they try

maxspeed96CT

iTrader: (9)

wow you guys are puttin down some good numbers, my mods are i my sig.

I hope to dyno soon and i gotta retune.

What MAF housings are you guys running ?

who is using the range rover housing with a safc ?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Overstatement of the year candidate right here.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (6)

this from the guy who said ls tq curves arent flat

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

You'd be surprised what you can do with the MoTec. I have a friend running a KA24E (note the single cam) putting down well over 200whp. He was at 205 max for a loooong time running the typical stock ECU + piggyback setup. had several tuners play with it and that's all they could get out of it. he finally switched to a Motec and had a good tuner play with it for just 30 minutes. when he left, he was putting down about 230whp.
so 25hp gained just from swapping to a standalone ECU. driveability was much improved as well.

all said, you would be amazed what a standalone + good tuner can get out of an engine.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Did this piggyback have discrete ignition timing control?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I'm actually very well aware of MoTec capabilities and features. In principle I agree with you but in this particular case I'm not so certain:

We know what his timing and AFR settings are and they're no different that what we've already been running via EU. If you're comparing with an SAFC or something basic just doing MAF tuning, maybe. But the EU gives you much better control than that, modifying ignition and injection directly post-stock ECU (ie nothing to do with coarse methods such as airflow), with up to 512 RPM/load sites for each. Is it as good as Motec in terms of absolute control over everything or even control resolution? Not even close. But it seems like a bit of a stretch to think that if you're running the same timing and AFR specs the power output will be drastically different (again, talking about direct control, not coarse airflow adjustments).

I guess what I'm saying is that if you gave me the same setup as his "stock" setup (ie -with the same custom headers, Jerico tranny/clutch etc) and the only difference was the EU vs the MoTec, I'm pretty sure I could get comparable numbers out of it. I'm not sure if I made that clear before. I wasn't saying the MoTec had no impact vs the stock ECU tune, I was referring to having the same settings on the EU (for example) vs the MoTec. His "stock" numbers don't seem that far-fetched to me given the mods he actually had. But no one ever dyno'd a comparable setup with EU, it's only been around and fully functional for a little over a year, and anyone that has one is not even close to stock so it's hard to compare even against true stock ECU'd Maxima #'s.

To me, when you look at the mechanical differences with our typical stock VQ30 Maxima setup and his "stock" setup, they are quite significant. Does the Motec make a difference vs having just an EU? Probably. More than all the mechanical differences put together? I'm not so sure... It's just my opinion but in this case I think the mechanicals contribute more than the engine control brand if we're comparing to EU. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong if there's a way to do it. It's not like I think the EU is the be-all-end-all, in fact I consider MoTec to be king of the ECU world. I'm sorry, I don't feel I'm explaining my thoughts clearly today, hope it's understandable what I'm getting at.

What brand of piggyback was your KA friend running?

Edit: nismology I see you're asking a question along the same line of thought...

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Nismology, yes. I forget what he was running but it was an EU or similar type of system. He's pretty much tried anything and everything out there- even a Moogasquirt and a Haltech before going to the MoTec.. same tuner with the Haltech and MoTec and he was still able to squeeze more power out of the MoTec. crazy.


Dandy, yes I see what you're saying. There are of course a lot of factors at play here. the ECU or mechanical differences alone don't explain 100% of the story, but the combination of them definitely does.

also note there are many other issues with fuel injector timing that most of these piggybacks *usually* don't account for. I'm not sure if you can adjust it with the EU, but I know it's a specification in the MoTec and is one of the many things that good tuners fiddle with that give a car that instant throttle response and gorgeous sound you only see in race-tuned engines. It also affects part-throttle driveability and idle control dramatically.
it's less of a factor at WOT, and >80% injector duty cycle, but it still makes a difference..

On that note, can you adjust the fuel timing with the EU? I see the site says you can adjust fuel and ignition maps even per cylinder, but what about the actual fuel timing maps?

.... I'm probbaly just making myself look stupid with my lack of knowledge with the EU... but there's lots of things the MoTec does that the EU doesn't. this is one of the first things I can think of.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Hah it's funny, because after I posted I got thinking about it later this afternoon as to what the key differences might be that could alter the power output, and fuel injection timing was the first thing I thought of also off the top of my head. The EU cannot change that. And with a cam change especially that parameter could definitely become an important key.

As you said I'm not sure how much it affects WOT compared to the definite impact it would have on partial throttle response, idle etc. Would it have a huge impact under WOT in this case, since the engine was stock internally and no cam change was made? One would hope the stock ECU timing would be decent... (maybe I shouldn't assume that. ) More than anything else I think the injection timing affects mixture quality, you want the end of injection more or less at the half way point in the intake stroke where the airspeed into the cylinder is the greatest IIRC, but if you don't get the right timing exactly, aren't you kind of taking care of that indirectly via the WB monitoring on the back end so to speak (and subsequently adjusting PW's)? Maybe not. I should think about this more when it's not midnight and I can hardly put 2 thoughts together any more.

Did your friend's KA undergo more significant changes than this VQ did (ie internal engine change, cam etc)?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

You'd be amazed what the fuel timing will do to the driveability of the car. it affects the atomization of the fuel and even affects the engine temp quite a bit. If you spray early- just before the intake valve opens, you get fuel sprayed onto the back of the hot intake valve. this vaporizes the fuel and cools the valve, but can lead to deposits and other issues as well. there's good and bad.
spray too late and you wind up with the valve slamming shut while there's air + fuel coming down the intake ports. this can help to cool the valves a bit, but usually you just wind up coating the ports with varnish because the fuel sits long enough to collect on the walls and begins to evaporate.
I think you can see where I'm going with it though. from what I understand about it, the trick is to start spraying fuel just before the valve opens and end during the highest velocity airflow. hard to do when you're running 75-90% duty cycle though!

My friend's KA is a race motor built just about to the extent of the rules allowed in SCCA E-Production. he's running 12 or 13:1 compression, knife-edged crank, huge cam, etc. funny thing is they're not allowed to touch the head at all- and there's LOTS of power to be made in the heads...
but putting down 200+whp NA on an engine that only put down about 105whp stock is pretty impressive to say the least.

He's running a auto flexplate + quartermaster clutch very similar to the VQ pictured above. he's running a 5 spd dog ring race tranny as well with a custom bellhousing. It's not a Jerico, but it's something similar to them. forget who now.

Rebello builds a KA24E engine for the same class and I've seen them put down over 300whp NA. the problem is they're $25k each and last ONE race. My friend's usually gets new rod bearings every other race (stupid long stroke truck motors!!!) and a complete rebuild at the end of the season if the bearings don't fail between rebuilds and grenade the engine. His engine costs him $15k a season to run compared to 25k a race. (again, assuming no shrapnel!) ouch.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for breaking that down and explaining the benefits. I didn't know that MoTeC had this capability. Wow. What CAN'T you do these days? Sheesh.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yep my understanding is the same. I typed a detailed description out last night also but accidentally deleted it and it was late and I was too lazy to retype it so I just summed it up by saying you wanted injection to end about half way through the intake stroke at highest airspeed (for the reasons you mentioned above). I even had a little scenario done up to calculate what the angular difference in end of injection timing would be based on pulling 1 or 2 ms of PW out with a piggyback. But anyways as I said my understanding is that max airspeed typically occurs at about 270-280* BTDC on the compression stroke on most engines (=80-90* ATDC on the intake), which makes sense if you think about the physics.

But as you say, under heavy load your DC is going to be high, you'll be spraying during other strokes also (ie closed intake valve), so I'm not sure how significant the effect is under WOT tuning, which is mainly what we're talking about on this particular VQ30. Airflow conditions are also different under heavy load compared with light load/partial throttle/vacuum etc. And it would also depend on where the factory injection timing was set and the original PW it delivered compared to how much a particular tune had added/pulled... (ie as I alluded to above, the net angular difference). All these things would play into how much of an advantage the MoTeC would have over an EU I'd think... (or other system). I need to learn more about the effects of injection timing under heavy load/high rpm. I still think I could get similar #'s out of that VQ30 with an EU (but again WOT).. however I could be mistaken.

Sounds like an impressive build. Wonder how much the major cam change had to do with the injection timing finding additional power.


$25k for one race? Even $15k a season is lots (unless he's got sponsor money )


The MoTeC allows you to set start of injection or end (end is better). But you think that's impressive, that's just the tip of the iceberg with the MoTeC. As I said, king of the ECU world. You sure pay for it though.

Man I have some news I'm itching to share but not quite yet.

maxspeed96CT

iTrader: (9)

so how many of you guys running a larger MAF housing with a safc??

Im just asking cause i want to install mine and want to know what hotwire settings ppl are running and how hard it was to tune

One Crazy Max

i know of someone with a VQ35 swapped 4th gen putting down 293whp with a fully tuned JWT ecu, and programming for fully functioning VI.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

^^What internal modifications does he have?