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VK45DE similarities to VQ30DE

Old Jun 14, 2004 | 02:15 PM
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VK45DE similarities to VQ30DE

SR20DEN has mentioned the valve and other similarities, however here is some more evidence from an SAE technical document that might be useful for some of the PIONEERING types like Mardi, krismax, SR, and others.

LIGHT WEIGHT VALVE MECHANISM – The cylinder head
arrangement and valve system are basically modular to
VQ30 engine which is fitted to Infiniti I30 and Nissan
Maxima Model.
However new lightweight materials are
utilized in valve mechanism in order to reduce the valve
operating noise and friction of valve system.

Titanium intake and exhaust valves – Nissan has
experienced titanium valves for the use of racing engines
and VK45DE is the first application to mass production
engine with some modification for passenger vehicle.
Titanium alloy is adopted to both intake and exhaust
valves. Intake valve material is Ti-6Al-4V, and exhaust
valve material is Ti-6AL-2Sn-4Zr-2Mo, both are used with
no metallizing on valve face. Plasma carburing on the
valve stem and flame hardening at stem end are
processed in order to improve wear resistance in a long
life use which racing engine does not require. As a result
the intake valve is 48%, the exhaust valve is 57% lighter
than steel valves respectively. In addition, the titanium
intake valve shape was able to have more ideal shape for
air intake flow with no weight penalty. Table 3 and Fig.13
show the above advantage of titanium valves of VK45DE
engine.

Table 3. Valve Weight
-----------------Titanium/Steel
Intake Valve----31.3gr/60.7gr
Exhaust Valve--28.7gr/66.5gr

Aluminum valve spring retainer – In addition to Titanium
intake and exhaust valves, Aluminum valve spring
retainer is used to reduce the weight of valve mechanism.
The material is Al-Si and it is produced by cold forming
process. It is designed to keep the same stiffness as
usual iron’s one in order not to spoil valve movement as
high speed engine.
As the VK45DE utilizes aluminum valve lifter, same parts
as the VQ30DE
, the weight as valve mechanism is
38%(intake),42%(exhaust) lighter than old VH41DE
engine (Fig14). By using such light weight valve system,
VK45DE shows not only less valve impact noise level
itself (Fig.15) but also better sound quality(Fig.16) for
luxury vehicle.Fig.15 shows the engine sound pressure
level at no load, 1800rpm measured by engine
dynamometer.
I also find it interesting that the VK45DE uses a SIMILAR variable air induction system as the VQ30DE-K:
INTAKE MANIFOLD
Variable air induction system – Variable air induction
system shown in Fig.4 is adopted. Intake manifold
consists of two aluminum die cast pieces and upper
portion has variable induction air valves (power valves) .
Lower portion make the intake port to cylinder head and
intake surge tank is formed by upper and lower portion.
When engine speed is low, the power valves are closed
so that intake air can go through the A-passage( long
port), whereas at high engine speed the power valve is
open so that intake air goes through both B-passage and
A-passage which are designed to show maximum air flow
at the designed engine speed.



Low intake airflow resistance – Intake air flow resistance
was analyzed by both CAE and actual models. The
analysis was conducted from air induction duct to the
intake port of cylinder head and able to find out the
suitable shape to minimize the intake airflow resistance
that result in about 15% improvement from the VH41DE
(Fig.5). Our efforts are mainly dedicated to the selection
of the detail port shape of intake manifold and cylinder
head. Fig.6 shows an example of the analysis model of
intake manifold. The VK45DE adopted variable air
induction system which consists of dual intake port and
need to obtain compatible solution for both power valve
opened and closed conditions.

During the development, the importance of the airflow
around merging area of both intake port was recognized
and analysis was conducted to solve how to reduce the
separated region of airflow. Fig.7 shows an example of
the analysis of airflow at the power valve opened
condition. Fig 7(a) is the airflow streamline and stream
distribution before detail refinement, whereas Fig 7(b)
shows the final result of analysis by changing the
manifold shape which resulted in 2.2% increase of air
flow. This type of analysis were conducted for every
critical area in detail in order to accumulate the
improvement of air flow and finally the VK45DE engine
intake system could achieve about 15% improvement in
airflow resistance.
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 02:26 PM
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SOOOooo since the head arrangement and valve system are "modular to the VQ30DE"....anyone up for a head/intake manifold swap?

Also, it has CVTC, so could the mechanical(ignoring the ECU) side possibly be made to work?
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 03:49 PM
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well what are you going to do about the extra cylinder head port on each side since it's a v8? =P

















i'm sure you could swap the valvetrain components if that's what you're talking about, but as for the entire head and intake manifold it's just not going to happen. i know u knew that tho
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 04:18 PM
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Reading up I see?

Originally Posted by Chinkzilla
well what are you going to do about the extra cylinder head port on each side since it's a v8? =P
I guess he forgot about that.
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 06:14 PM
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Im definetly getting the Ti valves maybe crower supras spring and retainers. Going to get a few and see if they work.
I wish there was some good vq 30 head jdm that would be direct bolt on. This would be great. Or Im going to try to find someone who knows there **** when it comes to head work. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 06:50 PM
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I just think that ICE got so into reading that stuff he didn't realize the VK45 was a V8.
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 07:10 PM
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I think he means the springs and valves.
Old Jun 14, 2004 | 11:43 PM
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Wow the VQ valves are fully twice the weight of the VK valves, that's alot, and good to know.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 02:55 AM
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Keep in mind you have to use much thicker shims for the VK valve which offset some of that weight loss.
The swap has already been done by some guy in Austrailia on the Nismo heads for his 350Z.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by krismax
Im definetly getting the Ti valves maybe crower supras spring and retainers. Going to get a few and see if they work.
Why? It is a pointless waste of time to do both. The VK45 springs are much softer than VQ springs and the negine still revs to 6900rpm. If you use your stock VQ springs on the VK valves the assembly will be capable of revving well over 4k (8k crank). Also, the shorter valve will already have a higher seat load on it to start with.

I wish there was some good vq 30 head jdm that would be direct bolt on. This would be great.
The Nismo head is just that.
Or Im going to try to find someone who knows there **** when it comes to head work. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
RTFM
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nealoc187
Wow the VQ valves are fully twice the weight of the VK valves, that's alot, and good to know.
Judging by the metal charts I have observed, as a rule of thumb, Titanium is roughly half the weight of steel and Aluminum is roughly half the weight of Titanium.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Why? It is a pointless waste of time to do both. The VK45 springs are much softer than VQ springs and the negine still revs to 6900rpm. If you use your stock VQ springs on the VK valves the assembly will be capable of revving well over 4k (8k crank). Also, the shorter valve will already have a higher seat load on it to start with.


The Nismo head is just that.

RTFM
What I dont understand was all of the talk about how "I wouldnt rev over 7200 rpm" from some people and JWT.
So with the valves from the vk45 you believe that 8000 rpm all day long wont be a problem?

I would gladly put the VQ 35 head or nismo on but The intake manifold from the 3.0 wont work.

I read them and it didnt tell me a good place to get it done . Im not looking for a nascar head work and price . If I gained 10 hp for $600-800 Id be happier than a pig in sh$t.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 05:22 AM
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mmmmmmmmmmmm VQ30DE-K revving to 10000 RPM all day long mmmmmmmmmmm

yeah right, I need to quit dreaming
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by krismax
What I dont understand was all of the talk about how "I wouldnt rev over 7200 rpm" from some people and JWT.
I believe you're floating your valves @ 7500, so I still agree with JWT on this issue based on my VQ30 experiences.

So with the valves from the vk45 you believe that 8000 rpm all day long wont be a problem?
The VK45 valves and the Aluminum retainers that go with them yes.

I would gladly put the VQ 35 head or nismo on but The intake manifold from the 3.0 wont work.
The Nismo head is a VQ30 design and still uses the smaller 36mm intake valves.

I read them and it didnt tell me a good place to get it done . Im not looking for a nascar head work and price . If I gained 10 hp for $600-800 Id be happier than a pig in sh$t.
I mean read what i have written in the past.

You won't find any cylinder head person in the world that's better than Dan Paramore. http://www.dprracing.com/
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 08:52 AM
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Yeah, just ignore my second post.

I knew the VK45 was a V8...just brain fart in the heat of the moment before I headed out to the airport. Oh well...rained on my parade.

So, krismax you going to pickup an extra set of heads and have them P&P'd, then install VK45 Ti valves and aluminum retainers along with JWT HD valve springs?
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 08:54 AM
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Can you explain how/why shims are used and why they'd need to be thicker if using VK valves?

Thanks.


Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Keep in mind you have to use much thicker shims for the VK valve which offset some of that weight loss.
The swap has already been done by some guy in Austrailia on the Nismo heads for his 350Z.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Yeah, just ignore my second post.

I knew the VK45 was a V8...just brain fart in the heat of the moment before I headed out to the airport. Oh well...rained on my parade.

So, krismax you going to pickup an extra set of heads and have them P&P'd, then install VK45 Ti valves and aluminum retainers along with JWT HD valve springs?
People were picking on you but if carpart had vk 45 heads i was all ready to put them on my car. I already talked to a guy who has made v 8 heads from fords in the past fit v6'. He says that to do it with the cast iron head you cut it apart in the middle and braze it back together. But doing this is not worth the money or time.

Yes I'am going to get a extra set of heads, get the valves . I would love to use the aluminum retainers but Im worried that they wont last in high reving situations. But I've been told that the vq35 at 7200 equals mine at around 8000rpm ,so the retainers will work and last? I didnt know that the Q 45 rev limit was that high and with aluminum retainers but dont the softer springs put less stress on them? But the thing is if the supra stuff works than for $400 I can get the Ti springs and retainers . Just the jwt springs i believe are in the $300 range.
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 11:55 AM
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VK45DE:
3744@6900rpm(stock redline?)

VQ35DE:
3524@6600rpm(stock redline)
3844@7200rpm(TS redline)

VQ30DE:
3174@6600
3462@7200
3847@8000

So, you'd be past the designed max fpm of the VK45s "High Tensile Strength Valve Spring", however no worse then what TS VQ35s are seeing.

If I understand SR correctly though, even if you use the VK45 parts, you'll end up with more valvetrain mass since you'd have to add more shim. So, I'd assume you couldn't go beyond the VK45 limit "safely".
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 12:10 PM
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No, it just wont reduce as much as you would want it to. It would also be nice if the much lighter VQ35 buckets would work on the VQ30 heads but they wont (too small).
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by krismax

Yes I'am going to get a extra set of heads, get the valves . I would love to use the aluminum retainers but Im worried that they wont last in high reving situations.
You aren't listening to anyone about your 8k RPM nonsense on the stock VQ30 valvetrain, so why listen to those same people about aluminum retainer failures?
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 01:20 PM
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No? The valvetrain would still be heavier then the VK45, correct?

I wonder if the VK45 buckets are lighter.

Damn...I wish we had access to all these engines to mix-n-match the best parts.

Originally Posted by SR20DEN
No, it just wont reduce as much as you would want it to. It would also be nice if the much lighter VQ35 buckets would work on the VQ30 heads but they wont (too small).
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 02:56 PM
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We may as well link this to my other thread.

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=315000

Im going to attempt to order a VK45 ex. valve.




The VK45 prolly uses the same buckets as the VQ35. Afterall, the VK45DE did debut in 2k2 (Q45), a year after the VQ35 came out (in the pathy).
Old Jun 15, 2004 | 03:20 PM
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Isn't it true that as long as you don't make the moving parts inside the engine heavier, adding a bit of weight to the non moving parts won't make that much of a difference?
Old Jun 16, 2004 | 01:03 PM
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Auugh...these are moving parts and the weight causes the valve springs to not be able to control the valve opening/closing at high rpm.

Lowering the mass of the valvetrain parts, while keeping adequate strength is a solution to keep proper intake/exhaust valve timing up to 8000rpm.
Old Jun 16, 2004 | 04:09 PM
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Redline on the USDM VK45 is 6,600rpms. Like other recent Nissan cars, I'm sure the rev limiter is at redline also but I can't confirm that.
Old Jun 16, 2004 | 06:07 PM
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i accidentally shifted into 3rd instead of 5th last night and hit 7600 rpm... put the clutch in right away though... still.. freaky

hope i didn't damage anything
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 07:37 AM
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I've found a bunch of different quotes from 6500-6700rpm, but here's one with the 6900rpm:
http://popularmechanics.com/automoti...er/print.phtml

Originally Posted by ScreamingVQ
Redline on the USDM VK45 is 6,600rpms. Like other recent Nissan cars, I'm sure the rev limiter is at redline also but I can't confirm that.
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 07:51 AM
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That is the same sheet I got my info from and published on my website.
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 08:04 AM
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www.nissannews.com says 6700rpm. Maybe 6900rpm is where the rev-limiter is.
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 08:05 AM
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Here nissannews.com says 6,900 is "max engine speed"

http://www.nissannews.com/site_libra...y/engine.shtml
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 08:08 AM
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Here NISMO.co.jp says same:

http://www.nismo.co.jp/M_SPORTS/2001/irl4/2.html
Old Jun 17, 2004 | 09:30 AM
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Also, assuming the Infiniti IRL teams are using same/similar valves in their IRL VRH35ADE motor(destroked VK45DE)....then Ferrea might make a compatible titanium blank that could be machined to your specifications according to this on their website:

"Ferrea also offers Titanium Blanks Valves that can be custom-machined to your specifications. These custom valves can be produced with or without hard tips. We assure a fast turnaround time. Our selection of blanks now includes the New Special Hi-Temp. Nitrous compatible exhaust vavles, unlike all other titanium valves, they will not flake, chip or peel at the bottom of the stern due to heat or excessive movement. Also, the New small diamter stem valves (7mm & 5.5mm) are now available for Honda, Acura, Toyota, Nissan, Aurora IRL motors.

http://www.ferrea.com/productlines.p...03da6dc#hollow

I can only imagine the cost though.
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