Jime

iTrader: (10)

Nitrous does not reduce engine life any where near as much as turbos and S/C's do.

Below is a quote from the NOSWizard.

The points listed are ALL FACTS
They are NOT OPINIONS.

Point 1),
What ALL novices and many "self proclaimed experts" don't "know" or "realise" is that MOST engine wear occurs on "start up" (as any oil company will tell you), because there is NO OIL between the moving parts.

Point 2)
The second aspect of wear (for some engine components), is engine speed (rpm).
Obviously if an engine was run at 1,000rpm for a given length of time it would have 1/10th of the wear that an engine ran at 10,000rpm would have.
Most conventional tuning INCREASES the rpm at which peak power is achieved so if you use that power you will increase engine wear.

Point 3)
Nitrous is the ONLY tuning product that creates such a MASSIVE increase in "torque" and the maximum "torque" is generated at LOW to MID rpm.
Consequently if you wanted to extend engine life (REDUCE WEAR), you could do this and increase performance (at the same time), by using a Nitrous system and changing gear
at a lower rpm than without gas.
Used this way NITROUS use will result in REDUCED ENGINE WEAR.

Point 4)
The components responsible for MOST WEAR in an engine are the camshaft and followers, because they are made from the hardest materials in the engine and are subjected to the highest frictional loads / forces.
They wear at a high rate (frequently being the first major parts to need replacing).
The VERY hard particles that are produced by the wearing of these components get pumped around the engine causing accelerated wear in parts like the bottom end bearings, pistons etc.
The best way to reduce camshaft wear is to run the engine at higher rpm because the cam lobes and followers are not in contact for as long as when running at low rpm.
The faster you accelerate the engine to high rpm the shorter the time that the followers are in contact with the cam lobes.
Guess what, Nitrous accelerates (reduces) the rpm rise time and consequently reduces cam & follower wear.

Point 5)
The final BUT MOST IMPORTANT point that 99.9% of people seem to forget or overlook, is that Nitrous is ONLY used for a few SECONDS at a time. So even if ALL the
above was RUBBISH, this very short use period would have such a microscopic effect on wear that it would NOT be worth considering (which is why I don't make a big thing about Nitrous actually REDUCING engine wear).
I drive my car to work and back every day which takes about 1 hour. Lets assume (to make things simple for the likes of the odd plant life that occasionally visits our board), that wear is consistent under all
conditions (even though it's NOT). I'll probably use the Nitrous system 5 or 6 times
for about 3 to 5 seconds at a time (maximum use 30 seconds).
So in a journey that lasts 3,600 seconds the gas is used for just 30 seconds that equates to less than 1%.
The more you use your car the smaller the percentage of time the Nitrous is used.
Even if Nitrous increases wear (WHICH IT DOES NOT), a maximum of 1% does not seem worth mentioning to me!

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

No, adding or subtracting fuel via an SAFC will change timing, not just adding fuel in general. The ECU is set up that when it sees a certain voltage from the MAF it supplies a certian amount of fuel...but that voltage also determines the timing. When the SAFC changes that voltage to get its desired increase or decrease in fuel it is inadvertantly changing the timing. Adding fuel will tell the ECU a higher MAF voltage, more load, with more load the timing is decreased.

I saw this first hand when I was dyno tuning. I had to take out fuel via my SAFC and when I got up to 15% correction I my curve started getting a little choppy, a sign of a little detonation becaue of too much timing. I bumped it up the correction a little more and the curve got even more choppy.

As far as the NA ET's I was refering to your 4th gen, not the 5th gen beast of yours.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Dude, did you post just to say that? Your argument doesn't even make sense. So just because it's just in dragsters means it's not safe I guess that means turbos and superchargers aren't safe as well, as are slicks, weight reduction etc Yes, you can say it will reduce engine life, but how much? How do you measure it? Surely not by 1 shot=1000 miles Yes, our engines were designed to hold a certain amount of power. How is the power from nitrous any different from the power gained from an aftermarket SC/TC? So why is a turbo safer? It's always running, which is worse for the car than nitrous, and if the turbo breaks, the car doesn't run. I can still drive my car around if the nitrous doesn't work.

Jime

iTrader: (10)

15% is a lot of correction. Still I am not sure it was advancing the timing, running lean causes detonation too. I would have to see a graph of the timing to really believe it changed.

Also I just use the S-AFC to smooth out the A/F curve, if a major change is required I do it via larger or smaller jet for nitrous. As far as N/A, I have always been rich on every car I've had so its always removing fuel and I have never seen a timing change occur and I watch the timing very closely as well as graph it. Its mostly in the 17-19 range. My current N/A settings on the S-AFC vary between -4 to -11% . On spray its -1 to +2%.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

Making large changes on an SAFC does mess with timing, there is no way around it. It is just how the system works by hacking the MAF signal. Tell the ECU the load is less and timing will advance....tell it the load is more and timing will decrease. I don't believe you will see a difference with corrections lower than 7 or 8 % though. I figured you were adding more fuel than that. 1-2% is totally negateable

in my case it was not a lean condition. I was still at or below 11:1 AFR with all these corrections. I have 12 different dyno pulls from that day. I did have one set up with a 12:1 ARR in parts of my power band using just an FMU and no safc corrections and there was no hint of knock.

it is common knowledge that an SAFC will mess with timing. Now if you were just adjusting injector duty cycle like e-mange does that is different but an SAFC

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Well I have never heard that before and I am just quoting my experience. It doesn't change mine and as I said previously, I monitor and log my timing, both N/A and with spray, its very consistant, same with my old 4th Gen.

N/A I am in the 10-11% range on 5 of my 12 data points.

Maybe boost causes it to react differently but N/A and spray I see no change.

kcidmil

That's something people just happen to forget when installing any boosted component... The engine was not originaly designed to run with it. Sure the engine has enough leway in the design to support it... but not at the original expectations of the design.

The engineers did not design the engine to come off the line and run with NX. They designed it to get as much life out of it as possible.... unless it's a caddy...

It's gamble... there is no prolonging the life of the engine when dealing with any boosted applications. Cause you just shortened it off it's original design.

NX has a natural cold state. A couple of designs say using it will reduce the combustion chamber temperature until it's ignited. Cold air is dense, and NX is even denser. But in some cases you don't want that. Some pistons are designed in a egg shape, and expand with heat to fill the chamber.

You want your engine to run a long time... keep it stock. But you want the power... you have to pay for it down the road. Yeah I want power... but I'm not going pay up the cost for the *cheap power producer*

It can get too addictive easily, and that's where many people get ahead of themselves. That "cheap HP in a bottle" now cost you something out of an engine. And that isn't cheap.

Look how much of a headache our fellow orger has here.

2 Da Max

iTrader: (2)

ok what about if your car has or is made with turbo already? i mean what if you go boosted and lower your compression ratio?

2 Da Max

iTrader: (2)

ok what about if your car has or is made with turbo already? i mean what if you go boosted and lower your compression ratio?

2 Da Max

iTrader: (2)

ok what about if your car has or is made with turbo already? i mean what if you go boosted and lower your compression ratio?

kcidmil

You answered your own question. The engine was designed for the Tubro.. like the SRT4. But that doesn't mean it was designed for NX.

As for the ratio... yeah you can lower your ratio... but that doesn't mean the cams, the valves, the rest of your engine was designed for it. If I wanted to turbo my VG, I'd grab the guts out of the VG30DET or TT. There might something slightly different from mine which could make or break the setup.

You can't just look at the small part... when you change one thing with the system, it effects the rest of it.

04BlackMaxx

It makes perfect sense, and I would go for a turbo If I had the money and intrest to do a complete engine teardown to make the motor able to withstand the added Hp (performance rods,pistons,cams, hardware etc..). NOS is worse for the engine because its only used at high RPM's and an instant blast to the motor (depending on the shot). Id rather have a car thats always boosted and built for it. Why dont any of the high performance street cars sold ont he market come with NOS if its such a great idea, NOS seems like a cheap solution. This stuff is for racing motors, not family cars...

Frank Fontaine

You're right--there isn't any free lunch except when Santy Clause is in town.

We used to think the Toyotas or Acuras were extreme in their HP/torque ratios, check out the new M5. All the design in the world with the M5 cannot equal the E55 which is supercharged. But in the E55 everything is reinforced, from the crank and valvetrain, to the block, oil pan, pistons, rods.

Then again, we all remember Chuck Norris in Lone Wolf McQuade--"You can't get away from me McQuade, my car is supercharged!" Chucky says "supercharge this" as he flips the nitrous switch.....

04BlackMaxx

All the design in the world cant equal the E55? Actually the new M5 is a V10 and tops the E55, unless you are talking the V8 M5. They are all amazing cars...and slapping NOS on a car not ment for it is engine suicide in the end.

Frank Fontaine

Actually, what I meant was that the V10 on paper is like the 200 HP Toyotas and Acuras where the HP far-exceeds the torque. While the V10 is something like 507 HP, the torque is only 384 ft. lbs. That's 26% less torque than an E55 which is supercharged. The E55 is 469hp/516 ft. lbs. Keep in mind the M5 is still only 5 liters, and it's as if 2/10 cyl. are not really used until you push the button, where you can toast even the new EVO. Imagine that, a car that can do a 4.3 0-60 can't keep up with the M5.

Anyway, yes, the new M5 is amazing and it will toast a current E55. My point was the output behavior, with the torque of 384 being far less than the HP, at 507.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Alright, UPDATE:

I pulled the plugs after I was able to locate some NGK coppers, and it's a sad sight. 3 of the plugs basically desitegrated....here's a pic...
Front Left- The curved part on the top has been burnt heavily, part has broken off, but the white part at the base is still pretty white.
Front center- Pretty good
Front right- Pretty good
Rear left- Tip is completely broken/burned off, and the white part at the base has been melted down half way.
Rear center- Tip is missing very end, still have white part intact.
Rear right- Just as bad as the rear left. Tip is gone and white base part has been melted down half way.

Looks like the plats might not be up to this after all

I followed the advice of a few people and sprayed WD-40 around the intake and intake manifold gaskets to see if there might be a leak or blown seal. I found no such leak. I should be able to get the comp test done either tomorrow or Monday. With the new plugs the car pulls harder, but doesn't idle better and still smells real rich....I'm surprised the car ran as well as it did with 2 or 3 plugs destroyed...

turbomax97

iTrader: (6)

Yeap, definately blew your motor. You detonated bad enough to burn the electrodes off the spark plugs... Bet you blew a piston ring or 2, maybe even a hole in a piston too... look for a new motor.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

Yep, big time detonation in multiple cylinders. Neal did that to one of his plugs a couple weeks ago at the track now he is needing a new motor.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Pull the new plugs out again and see if any are more black/sooty than the others. If so, you probably lost 1 or 2 sets of rings

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

So does this bring us any closer to figuring out what might have casued this?

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

sure it does. his fuel ignited before its proper detonation point. this happens with nitrous for a few reasons, lack of fuel, lack of quality fuel meaning race gas and maybe a colder plug.

theMax

or a bigger fuel jet

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

it's a dry kit....and I was only using good 93 octane gas...and my fuel pressure at idle is good...

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

its your pressure at wot that counts and if your injectors could handle that pressure. 93 is not a good gas for nitrous application it can still ignite before a full stroke. race gas holds that ignition till the very last moment preventing premature detonation. and about the bigger fuel jet i found out it doesnt quite work like that. a bigger fuel jet means more power which can also damage the engine even though it seems to make sense.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Where did you hear that 93 isn't good enough for nitrous, or any FI for that matter? The ECU is tuned to run on 91, so 93 should be more than fine. It's not like I'm running a huge shot on a poor tune....it's a conservative tune with a 65 shot. I just don't believe 93 octane isn't up to the task. Keep in mind this is a dry setup man....I don't have a fuel jet.

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

because i ran it for yrs and yrs and have turbo people and vinny ten telling me this is why cars detonate. eveidentally you have no idea what detonation is. bad fuel ignites before its proper point , a good gas doesn't. p.s i also blew two motors detonating before i was sat down and schooled

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Evidently you like to jump to conclusions. And yes, I have some clues as to what detonation is. So basically what you're saying is that any FI and nitrous car can't run safely without racing gas. BS. I wouldn't call 93 octane 'bad gas'. If you think I'm simply going to say "oh, this gas is what caused my car to detonate" and be done with it, you're wrong. You may have more experience than me with this, but that doesn't mean I don't have fukking common sense. So basically what you're saying is that I can't run any nitrous without race gas, which is just completely off base. How are cars in Cali running around with 91 octane on FI and nitroused cars? A higher octane certainly reduces the chance of detonation, but 93 octane is sufficient for what I'm running.
Now if you were telling me that a combination of plugs, tuning, and gas caused detonation, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I know you mentioned it earlier, but now it seems like you're saying it's just the gas that caused this.

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

your misreading my info, and no your not stupid. i run 93 all the time unless im racing then i use race gas. with race gas you have a less chance of detonating thats all im saying. now that i have the facts of your problem thats why i now say gas was the problem. you blew the tips off your spark plugs so your car detonated running lean(or not properly tuned) and a low octane gas is the cause.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

FINAL UPDATE!!!!

Finally did the compression test myself and it looks like one cylinder has lost compression. The front 3 cylinders are all around 220 psi, but the rear are worse off. The rear left was around 200 as was the rear middle, but the worst was the right rear, which was down to 90. I repeated the test to make sure it was accurate, and it was. I guess my initial reaction turned out to be right after all....I didn't have any oil lying around so I wasn't able to test to see if if the rings are bad or if a valve has gone bad. Either way I suppose the easiest thing to do now is find a new engine...

DE-K coming soon

2 Da Max

iTrader: (2)

wow you sound kind of happy even though you blew your motor.... shiet i wouldve been crying

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

You're not going to opt for the 3.5l?

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I just don't have enough cash right now to pay for the difference. I wish I could.