Inverting tie-rod ends on lowered maximas to eliminate bump steer/wandering?
10-17-2005, 06:13 AM
#1
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Inverting tie-rod ends on lowered maximas to eliminate bump steer/wandering?
My maxima is lowered over 2" with sprint springs and i experience some pretty annoying bump steer. I was wondering if this is caused by the fact that my tie-rods are kinda pointing upwards. Do you guys think it would help the situation if the tie-rod ends connected to the steering knuckle from the bottom instead so they'd be closer to parallel to the ground?? If not, would there be ANY benefits to doing this?? Thanks in advance.
10-17-2005, 07:15 AM
#2
since you can't flip them because of the bor in the spindle, it's a moot point.
but yes... adjusting the geometry of the tie rods can reduce/eliminate bump steer problems. but on these cars it's not an easy or cheap thing to do properly.
but yes... adjusting the geometry of the tie rods can reduce/eliminate bump steer problems. but on these cars it's not an easy or cheap thing to do properly.
10-17-2005, 07:37 AM
#3
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
since you can't flip them because of the bor in the spindle, it's a moot point.
but yes... adjusting the geometry of the tie rods can reduce/eliminate bump steer problems. but on these cars it's not an easy or cheap thing to do properly.
but yes... adjusting the geometry of the tie rods can reduce/eliminate bump steer problems. but on these cars it's not an easy or cheap thing to do properly.
10-17-2005, 08:33 AM
#5
it could be machined to fit, but you're looking at a couple hundred bucks..
it would have to be welded full, then remachined out from the other side.
remember, that's a tapered hole, not just a straight bolt hole.. if you run the same taper from the other side, you're only going to have about half the stud held in place, which can cause fatiguing and possible catastrophic damage if that thing snaps in a hard corner and your front wheels decide to point different directions.
Thus, you'd have to do a lot more work than just go to town with a tapered drill bit.
it would have to be welded full, then remachined out from the other side.
remember, that's a tapered hole, not just a straight bolt hole.. if you run the same taper from the other side, you're only going to have about half the stud held in place, which can cause fatiguing and possible catastrophic damage if that thing snaps in a hard corner and your front wheels decide to point different directions.
Thus, you'd have to do a lot more work than just go to town with a tapered drill bit.
10-17-2005, 11:13 AM
#7
Originally Posted by nismology
Ah...i see what you're saying now. Wouldn't it just be easier to cut and weld it upside down?
What you would have to do is fill in the hole, then machine it out with the taper going in the oppisite direction. If you just machine out half of the hole then you only have half of surface area and
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
you're only going to have about half the stud held in place, which can cause fatiguing and possible catastrophic damage if that thing snaps in a hard corner and your front wheels decide to point different directions.
I believe the major problem with making custom tie rod ends, drilling out the holes and using bolts instead is the fact that the bolts are threaded and it isn't a 100% perfectly tight fit so you can have some binding along with everything Matt said above.
10-17-2005, 12:34 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by MrGone
cut what?
What you would have to do is fill in the hole, then machine it out with the taper going in the oppisite direction. If you just machine out half of the hole then you only have half of surface area and
What you would have to do is fill in the hole, then machine it out with the taper going in the oppisite direction. If you just machine out half of the hole then you only have half of surface area and
10-17-2005, 01:47 PM
#9
Originally Posted by nismology
I mean the cut the portion of the steering knuckle with the hole where the stud goes through, flip it upside down, then reweld it back on. Is this not feasible?
10-17-2005, 02:04 PM
#11
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http://autorepair.about.com/library/...bldef-043a.htm
What i'm proposing would return the tie-rod ends to close to parallel on lowered cars.
Definition: The tendency of a vehicle to suddenly veer or swerve to one side when hitting a bump or dip in the road. The condition is caused by uneven toe changes that occur as a result of the steering linkage or rack not being parallel with the road surface. This causes the wheels to change toe unevenly as the suspension undergoes jounce and rebound.
10-17-2005, 02:13 PM
#13
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From what i've read, negative control arm angles can exacerbate the issue but aren't the main culprit. I would imagine the combination of doing both would eliminate bump steer altogether.
10-17-2005, 02:15 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by tavarish
You shall be our guinea pig.
10-17-2005, 03:34 PM
#16
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Bump steer..... Another reason why lower isn't always better.
Have you had an alignment since the car was lowered? If you haven't had it set correctly, your driving around with excessive toe OUT. That in itself will cause excessive bump steer.
Have you had an alignment since the car was lowered? If you haven't had it set correctly, your driving around with excessive toe OUT. That in itself will cause excessive bump steer.
10-17-2005, 04:06 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
Bump steer..... Another reason why lower isn't always better.
Have you had an alignment since the car was lowered? If you haven't had it set correctly, your driving around with excessive toe OUT. That in itself will cause excessive bump steer.
Have you had an alignment since the car was lowered? If you haven't had it set correctly, your driving around with excessive toe OUT. That in itself will cause excessive bump steer.
10-25-2005, 09:07 PM
#20
Man, I've been scheeming on this mod for like a year, just never mentioned it. I've got so much to say about it, I drew a rough design once.
I've only lowered my 3rd gen with Eibachs, but the tracking and bumpsteer is kinda bad, worse than my honda (1.8"). It is always compounded by wider wheels with a more "stickie-outie" offset (that's the technical term).
I'll have to steal a camera and put up some pix and drawings.
I've only lowered my 3rd gen with Eibachs, but the tracking and bumpsteer is kinda bad, worse than my honda (1.8"). It is always compounded by wider wheels with a more "stickie-outie" offset (that's the technical term).
I'll have to steal a camera and put up some pix and drawings.
10-25-2005, 09:18 PM
#21
cutting, flipping, and welding the spindle is a BAAAD idea.
this stuff is cast, not forged steel. you do not want to weld this stuff. makes it very brittle and weak. this is the LAST part you want to be welding on and then relying on to keep you safe in a hard corner.
the proper way to fix it would be to make new tie rod ends and machine a stud with an inverted-taper shaft on it so that you can mount it from below and then adjust height as necessary.
you would also be better off to install a threaded collar in place of the ball joint so that you can adjust the end of the control arm..
the problem is you've royally FUBARD your roll center by lowering the car this much. now you have issues with bump steer, weight transfer, and your instant center is below your roll center... when you start screwing with bump steer, you've now got to deal with everything else on the car as well, and messing with the steering can also affect Ackerman and scrub radius.... way more hassles than you want to deal with. been there, done that. raised my car back up an inch to solve the problem.
your best bet is to just raise the car up an inch or so. sure they look better that low, but it's ruining your handling and causing all kinds of other problems.
this stuff is cast, not forged steel. you do not want to weld this stuff. makes it very brittle and weak. this is the LAST part you want to be welding on and then relying on to keep you safe in a hard corner.
the proper way to fix it would be to make new tie rod ends and machine a stud with an inverted-taper shaft on it so that you can mount it from below and then adjust height as necessary.
you would also be better off to install a threaded collar in place of the ball joint so that you can adjust the end of the control arm..
the problem is you've royally FUBARD your roll center by lowering the car this much. now you have issues with bump steer, weight transfer, and your instant center is below your roll center... when you start screwing with bump steer, you've now got to deal with everything else on the car as well, and messing with the steering can also affect Ackerman and scrub radius.... way more hassles than you want to deal with. been there, done that. raised my car back up an inch to solve the problem.
your best bet is to just raise the car up an inch or so. sure they look better that low, but it's ruining your handling and causing all kinds of other problems.
10-26-2005, 09:51 PM
#22
BTW: I meant i was thinkin' on the mounting the tie rod on the bottom of the knuckle thing, not the welding thing.
BTW2: Matt is right, listen, and take his advice. You want to fill the wheel wells, get 19's.
BTW2: Matt is right, listen, and take his advice. You want to fill the wheel wells, get 19's.
11-02-2005, 10:02 AM
#23
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Wow Matt, i had no idea lowering it that much caused so many handling issues. I guess i'll just have to save up for coilovers with a shortened strut body so i can have my cake and eat it too.
11-02-2005, 10:35 AM
#24
the shortened struts are only the beginnings of the problems.
once you lower the car that much, your spindle is 3" higher (relative to the chassis) than what Nissan designed. your control arms and tie rods are now pointing up at the ends instead of down.. instead of negative camber gain and neutral toe when you turn or hit a bump, you have a positive camber gain and the car toes-in.. that makes the car handle WORSE than if you left it at stock ride height.
there's really a ton of engineering and geometry designed into these chassis and suspensions and a couple of tweaks here and there isn't going to replace that.
once you lower the car that much, your spindle is 3" higher (relative to the chassis) than what Nissan designed. your control arms and tie rods are now pointing up at the ends instead of down.. instead of negative camber gain and neutral toe when you turn or hit a bump, you have a positive camber gain and the car toes-in.. that makes the car handle WORSE than if you left it at stock ride height.
there's really a ton of engineering and geometry designed into these chassis and suspensions and a couple of tweaks here and there isn't going to replace that.
11-02-2005, 09:13 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Dillbag
BTW: I meant i was thinkin' on the mounting the tie rod on the bottom of the knuckle thing
11-02-2005, 09:34 PM
#26
Amen, Matt, the more I had auto-xed my honda and the more I read up on the susp, the more I hated ever fracking with it. But it was still damn competitive, always gave a swapped porsche and a turbo miata a run for the money, seriously.
But i digress, yes the maxima handling thing is a pain, like I said it has Eibach springs in rear, and S.T. in front...for the optimal ghetto-lean. So at most, it is lowered 1.5", and still the bump steer is awful.
But i digress, yes the maxima handling thing is a pain, like I said it has Eibach springs in rear, and S.T. in front...for the optimal ghetto-lean. So at most, it is lowered 1.5", and still the bump steer is awful.
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