Dave B

As we all know when the 4th gen Maxima was introduced, it came with a twist beam rear suspension. Nissan states that the rear beam DOES have a sway bar, but it's not the typical seperately mounted sway bar you see on most other cars. Personally, I always thought it was a joke for Nissan to say the 95+ Maxs had rear sway bars. Like most people, my 2nd handling mod was a Addco RSB (1st was a front strut brace). I noticed a nice improvement with the way my car handled curves with the sway bar. I then got wheels/tires and then finally lowered the car. The handling of my car is very nice, but sometimes you can feel the back end of the car rock as one tire goes over a bump as the opposite tire trys to move since they are connected together. With the RSB, the rocking and pitching is increased because less travel available due to the bar. It seemed clear to me that there is some suspension bind with RSB once you lower the car.

After studying the Maxima's beam setup, it became painfully clear to me that the design of the beam is actually a RSB like Nissan states. The beam is straight with two trailing arms WELDED (very important here) to the beam and then the arms are connected to the body via a link. This design completely follows a sway bar design. I also noticed there is a bar that runs thru to the middle of the beam which also increases beam stiffness. In most other cars with rear beams/axles (Mustangs, F-Bodies, higher line trucks) the beam/axle is located by trailing arms, but the trailing arms aren't welded to the beam/axle. Instead they are linked on both ends, therefore this isn't a sway bar. These designs employee a external sway bar.

Now here's my point (finally), I think we are all in agreement that the rear end sway/wallow of the 4th and 5th gen Maximas is quite pronounced even though these generations actually outhandled the 3rd gen in all handling contests. Since most us added the RSB before adding springs, we don't know how this car handles with just springs. I know Motor Trend tested two SMX Maximas and the one without the sway bar actually handled better numbers wise and rode better, but the RSB SMX felt more stable. Doesn't it seem feasible that having stiffer and lower springs plus stiffer shocks might handle nearly as good as the same setup with a RSB. Since the wheel travel has been dramatically reduced along with the cars ability to sway, the RSB wouldn't seem as effective as it was in the stock 4X4 setup. Would a RSB be overkill with a 2" drop, stiffer struts, sticky tires, and RSTB? I'm considering pulling off the RSB to see if the car does indeed ride better (14 lbs less unsprung weight-pretty significant), pitchs/rocks less, and handles nearly same.

Anyone have any insite?


Dave

matt calder

iTrader: (2)

Well i had my car lowered with coilovers before i got the RSB. Coilovers made a huge difference from stock, the RSB did very little, it just made the car feel flatter, like it was better planted on turns. But not very much. FSTB was the same way. very little change.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Dave...I had the privilage of driving my buddy Josh's (MaxDriver847) 97 SE with eibachs, toks and FSTB BEFORE he put his RSB on....when I first drove it...I wasn't very impressed...it still seemed to have a good amount of pitch and roll...but now that he has his RSB the thing corners like it's on rails, and doesn't have ANY body roll at all.

I also recently added a Addco RSB to my car. That, coupled with the FSTB and my 225/50-16 Dunlops makes the car handle almost 100% better than stock...and I haven't even done the spring and struts yet!

I don't know about you, but I'm sticking with my RSB.

ny96max

you wrote way too much, so i gave up reading all that mush-mosh!!

bottom line, YES this is the BEST handleing mod out for the maxima. And ye syou will feel a difference with aftermarket springs. Curently i have FSTB,RSTB and RSB along with H&R/Tokicos and Z-rated tires and my car can out handle almost anything on the road and take turns as fast as i want

Dave B

Maybe you should go back and read through all that mush-mosh and you might learn something about your car You'll also read that I have springs, shocks/struts, fstb, rstb, RSD, wheels/tires on my car right now.


Dave

CalsonicSE

iTrader: (3)

I had the FSTB, Intrax, and Tokico before getting the Addco RSB. After installing the RSB, I was expecting a HUGE difference in handling just like most people say. To tell you the truth, I didn't really feel much difference. Perhaps I was expecting too much but most likey the effects of the RSB is less pronounced when used together with lowering springs and aftermarket shocks..

got rice?

iTrader: (2)

The effects of an anti-sway bar are not as pronounced once the vehicle is lowered by springs and uses higher dampened shocks because the vehicle's roll-center heights and center of gravity is altered (for the better). The lower roll-center decreases the amount of weight transfer during side loads.

The reason for an anti-roll bar is to change and alter weight transfer distribution. Because a sprint/shock combo decreases weight distribution, the effects of an anti-sway bar on this setup is not as effective but it is still effective (but just not as much so as you would have with a stock spring/shock combo).

If I ever have a spare hour, I can do the calculations for front & rear roll couple, front & rear weight transfer due to body roll, centrifugal force on front & rear roll center, front & rear weight transfer due to roll-center height, yada yada yada but just take my word on it. Chassis tuning is complicated stuff.

NYCe MaXiMa

iTrader: (9)

I don't know about all that, but all I do know is my car handles like a boat. stock suspension, steel wheels with stock tires, The worst is felt when I am going over any un-even surface on the road, if there is a bump and I am cornering while going over it the rear end of my car SWINGS out sideways and I have to counter steer and shiet to not over swing the rear out too far.. It is really a pain, my 3rd gen was so much better even with shot stock struts with 106k miles on them. Damn beam suspension!!!!!!!

Dave B

I'll probably pull mine off and see how it feels.

If you guys have ever looked at other cars, the rear sway bars (if they have them) aren't nearly as big in diameter as the aftermarket ones available for the Maxima. My Father's 96 Tahoe has RSB half the size as my Addco.

The 3rd gen Maxima does have RSB, but it is barely 1/4" in diameter. Many people say the 3rd gen handles corners better with less lean vs the 4th gen. What's weird about this statement is that the 4th gens rear tires are completely tied together with a thick reinforced beam and welded trailing arms while the 3rd gens rear tires are only tied together with a 1/4" RSB.


Dave

LoveSick

One of my class mate owns a 86 300ZX turbo. I let him drove my Max once. The first time he drove it, he took some serious hard turns and accelerating and stuff.

He asked me if the Max was a RWD...I asked him why he'd asked that.

He said because the Max felt a little oversteer more than understeer, pretty much like his ZX. Keep in mind that my Max suspension is completely stock. So I guess the rear beam planted the rear wheel into the ground effectively.....

just my 2 cents.....?

NYCe MaXiMa

iTrader: (9)

3rd gens handle way better than 4th gens.

Enduro

I understand your first sentence. But the second about spring/shock combo (I'm assumming stiffer) decreases weight distribution perplex me. How does it do that?

I'd think the benefit of stiffer springs/shocks comes at full benefit if the front and back are balanced correctly. For instance with our heavy front-end car, if we're going to upgrade to stiffer spring/shocks then the rear should be stiffer relative to front. This would allow the extra weight sitting on the outside front tire to shift towards the rear, while cornering. This would be using the same principle that the sway bar is so effective at.

My theory that the reason the SMX without RSB handled better than the one with it is the difference in rate of weight distribution. The car with RSB when loaded in a corner, lets say in a tight left turn, will have it's outer rear springs compressed but since it is limited by the RSB some of the compression will affect the inside spring, meaning the inside will be lifted a bit. Now imagine if the driver has to switch and make a quick right turn, all of the transfered weight now sitting on the outside wheel will get shifted to the inside, or the other side. The important thing here is that the RATE of this weight transfer will definitely be quickened due to the fact that the inside/other springs are already compressed alittle by the RSB from the previous maneuver, and this quickened rate CAN throw people off if they're not used to.

Now I don't know if these Motor Trend driver took this into account and practice after switching from the one without to the one with RSB so they can adjust their driving style. But you can imagine on the extreme what it'll be like to agressively drive our maxima and then drive a go-kart....the difference in quickened steering input and weight transfer rate will for sure throw most of us off.

That is only my theory, I certainly don't have any proves for this but if you can prove me wrong and explain why then I'd appreciate it

Weasel

iTrader: (2)

Agreed, I've driven both, and the 4th gen may put down better numbers, but the 3rd gen feels a lot better to drive. I think the feel is what it comes down to for most people, not the numbers.

mrb23

this is what I had done, in order, H&R, then FSTB, then RSB. Still have stock struts/shocks.

IMO, the FSTB was the biggest difference in handling for me, probably due to the order I had them done.

I just got RSB like a few months ago, but it does make a difference to me. It feels a lot *TIGHTER* if I'm explaining it right, the back end hugs the road a lot better than with just H&R and FSTB. You can definitely tell a difference, mainly when you do quick turns, like quick 90' turns.

got rice?

iTrader: (2)

very easy..

total lateral weight transfer = (centrifugal force x center of gravity height) / track width

By lower the car you also lower the center of gravity. Weight trasnfer causes body roll, not the other way around. Weight transfer changes the forces on the springs, causing the outside spring to compress and the inside spring to extend (as you mentioned) but this doesn't directly relate to the center of gravity. Lower the center of gravity and you will decrease the weight transfer.

ny96max

you guys got a little too tech on this one
and yes DAVE B. i did learn a little more about the rear "log" we have, thanks!

got rice?

iTrader: (2)

It's better than reading about Altezza lights and what color to paint the calipers

deezo

iTrader: (3)

Dave,

I remember reading an article on how Nissan came to adding the rear suspension to the Max and it had everything to do with what is happening to your car over bumps. The bar that attaches to the center of the beam is supposed to zero-out the beam to keep the operation "independent".

Enduro

Thanks got rice?

Dave B

I removed my RSB yesterday and flung it around an industrial park and thru a few "clover leafs" on the highway. The rear rides much softer which is due to removing ~16 lbs of unsprung weight from the rear beam. There's much less harshness.

During normal driving around bumpy corners, there's hardly any of the quick pitching and rocking the RSB seemed to introduce. When the car is pushed hard into sharp and slow turns I can't tell a difference at all. In the long sweepers the the car DOES have more of a tendency to understeer right at the limit. The weird thing is my car can obtain nearly the same mph thru the sweepers as before, but the car seems more composed. With the RSB the car felt a little uneasy and darty, and without the RSB it feels more controlled at the limit. I think a 2" drop seems to take care of most of the roll in the this car. For increase in ride comfort and wheel travel, I'm willing to trade a very slight difference in handling. Don't get me wrong though, if I wasn't lowered, I'd have a RSB.


Dave

fnkmaster

I can see why the guy who had the z thought that the maxima was rwd. I added the RSB last, and there was a lot of over steer. I partly blame it on my tires, but the sway bar did cause a difference. And as Dave pointed out, while i was under the car, i was just looking at the addco rsb and the nissan beam, they look pretty identical. i sat in theblue's car, and he has the rsb without being lowered, its handling was a lot more different than my car right now. i still havent made up my mind whether i like it or not, but once i get better tires, i'm sure this will be settled.

ericdwong

Hmmm, and I just regreased my RSB yesterday. I should have tried this and see what happens.

hokiemax

iTrader: (2)

but my brother put an Addco RSB after dropping the car, I FELT A HUGE difference. I know what I'm feeling was the RSB, because the rear of the car felt a lot different than mine. It's like it was more, umm, tight, the rear wheels kind of tucks in during a turn. I like it a lot.

Colonel

Would you be willing to go as far to say if you are on stock shocks/springs with a RSB would be almost as close as a 2" drop and struts and springs? As I cannot get around not being able to drop my car at this time and would like to tighten it up a tad.

As for the uneasy/dartyness (is that even a word?) was it as bad as you were about to lift or did you just think "hmmmmm a little twitchy there"? Its the only way I can think of to describe how I drive. Cars communicate in so many ways that the brain (and for some of us other body parts ) makes a decision on how we proceed.

vbxmaxima

Good Job, Dave.
It's always good to test conventional thinking.

Until you mentioned it, I hadn't thought about removing the RSB
altogether. When I had my stock suspension, the RSB was GREAT.
When autoxing, the car felt much more stable and planted.

But after upgrading to eibach/konis, I started spinning out more.
The back end became squirelly. Not to mention one of the other
drivers behind me said that during hard cornering, I was Peg-legging
on one rear tire. I'm not sure if removing the RSB will stop the
peg-legging, but I definitely moved the RSB to a less aggressive
position...

Next time I'll try without the RSB altogether and see how it feels
for me.

Anachronism

Since this thread is alive again ...

Dave B. (or anyone else), do you think the RSB would still be effective on a softer aftermarket spring with less drop, like H&R?

ericdwong

I did some spirited driving today, and yet with my rear sway bar in place, I am still understeering. It is not neutral at all. Here are my "handling" mods. Quaife differential, sprint springs, AGX struts set on full stiff front and rear, front strut bar, rear sway bar. Tires are 225 50 16 BFGoodrich Comp TA V rated tires. Tire pressur eis at 34/31 F/R. I'll still play with tire pressure but I was able to get the front end sliding pretty easy, far before the rear tires. I hate this plowing ahead understeeringness. I bet if I lost the rear sway bar the understeering will be even worse. At this point, I really dont think there is much I can do, short of playing with the strut settings and tire pressures. Another variable is that I have probably 100 pounds of more weight at the extreme rear of the car, because of my subwoofers and trailer hitch.

Keven97SE

Dave, I had a broken trailing arm bolt on my ADDCO RSB a couple years ago and had to remove the bar for a few weeks. My car was lowered with Tokicos and H&Rs and a FSTB. This was my impression of how the car drove: There was slightly more body roll, which was not good, but the car was definitely less unsettled around bumpy corners. It seemed to have a little worse traction on smooth roads due to the roll but slightly better traction on bumpy roads due to the better independence. Less jarring ride with the RSB removed. It was much nicer in that respect. tOverall, though, I chose to keep the RSB because of the flatter cornering, but I have been itching to get rid of the RSB if I could find something else to flatten the cornering.

And I think I'll get that with the subframe connectors.

The SCs will keep the inside rear tire from moving up as much in a hard corner. This will keep that tire planted better, adding more load to that inside rear tire, and overall put more load on the rear tires. This adds oversteer...or in our case, reduces the amount of understeer. I'm hoping that the SCs will reduces understeer enough that I can ditch the RSB. Overall, with SCs installed and the RSB removed, I believe the car will handle as flat as now if not better, show neutral handling (similar to now or better), BUT also have more indendence in the rear and therefore handle smoother and ride better...also would remove 25 lbs or so of unsprung weight.