DOM

I was wondering about engine sizes for American cars. Why are they so much larger than Japanese? Is this a style or is it because they are so far behind in technology? I am curious about the Mustang V6. My friend also has one and I crushed him soo bad on the road. They have 190 hp from a 3.8L engine. I told him it was because American cars are so far behind import cars. He said it was just American engine style an dsize is mostly a preference. Is this true? I see an Acura NSX with V6 3.2 N/A that goes just about as fast as a V10, 8.0L Dodge Viper. What is going on?
Miscellaneous question: I have 225/40/18 tires. How often do I need to rotate the tires?

MarkP

when one considers that engines like the current GM 3.8L V6
can trace it's roots back to the 1962 Buick Special 198ci
V-6 though it's undergone many upgrades over the past 38 yrs.
The Ford small block 4.9L Windsor V-8 just now being phased out by the 4.6L on 5.4L modular V-8 was introduced in 1962 in the Ford Fairlane, also 38 yrs ago.
And also the Chrysler 318ci V-8 being replaced by a new generation of V-8's goes back to 1957, 43 yrs.

American manufacturers seem to hold on to their engine tooling much longer then most of the foreign manufacturers
it would seem, falling behind in technology to a point and only upgrading enough to meet emissions and fuel mileage requirements and dismissing smoothness of operation and higher efficiency we find in engines like our VQ's.

JMHO


[Edited by MarkP on 12-06-2000 at 07:42 PM]

delerium75

If I remember correctly, the Japanese had lots of size restrictions on their cars--everything from length and width to engine size. You violate, you pay. The car magazines from the 80's made notes of this...seems like a 2.0L engine was the maximum, beyond that, there were fines. That or I'm totally off base.

wharper

I know that japanese cars have incentive to limit the displacemtent of their engines. Larger displacement, larger taxes/fees. That probably motivates them to extract as much hp per liter of displacement as possible.

DOM

So why doesn't American cars follow this trend and squeeze out more Hp per L like Japanese? Then they can make the Viper with more HP. So what you guys are saying is that the Americans are way behind, or is it a style of engine making?

delerium75

My response would be that well engineered engines like the lovely VQ and Toyota V6's and V8's cost money to design and build. American car companies just slip something in that's "good enough" and pocket the savings. (There's been a few mumblings about the new GM 3.5L V6 being a really cheap imitation of a japanese V6) Plus with Japan having considerably higher gas prices, making the most power with limited displacement is a must.

WoodEar

of course that's cuz they are behind in technology.
i mean do you really think they like to feed more gas in those thing cuz that's the style??

buss95max

i have this same convo with my friends at work all day. they bragg about their stangs having v8s..and my other friend with a gsR, and i laugh cuz of the horrible mileage they get. round trip ~80 miles. my gsr friend and i lose about the same amount of gas. the stangs on the other hand, will lose half a tank..wtf is that?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Ask your V8 friend this: Why does Ford have to have a "special" mustang(Cobra) to make 300hp when every GS400 has 300hp? And the lexus engine has a smaller engine?? Or back in 1990 or 1991 when the Nissan Q45 4.1 V8 had 278hp, how much hp did the Mustangs have?? hehe

buss95max

jeff my boy...ur allllright.. THAT IS EXACTLY what we tell them.....i tell them i rather get a 190hp v6 and than a 215hp v8 gas guzzler..not to mention they rather ride in my car cuz its more roomier than theirs.

WoodEar

i think for the love of this bbs, we should call it a quit before the detriot muscle lovers get their ego hurt

SmoothMax

iTrader: (2)

I'm guessing that it's pure nature. If you think about it, back in the days and still today, some people(mostly middle aged and older Americans) prefer an automobile with a big engine. That was the happenin thing back in the days and some of these ceo's don't wanna see that die out since it was in their era.(The "muscle car" era)

TexMaximum

Its all about the market and optimal profits. Americans perfectly DO have the technology, coming from the place that invented the PC and thanks to Gore for the Internet, to make an efficient car, a supper computer, or a global missile defense system

Now in Japan, cars HAD to be efficient. You know, necessity brings innovation. When Honda released cars here, remember the oil crisis in the 70s and 80s, they became a huge hit as affordable and efficient cars. Just now American cars are changing their minds about the market here, and with gas prices on the rise. This will change soon, as more and more American won't accept non-efficient poorly built cars, and seek new cars else where. They see it coming, and the big three already have plans for many changes.

Americans really do like things big if you think about it, look at the stupid SUV craze. Gas guzzling minivan platforms with large wheels. Most of them are no better off-road then our Maxima It could very well be a “style” thing. We are also a throw away society that appreciates quality less then Asians and Europeans, as holding 1/3 of the world resources, its cheaper to just slap another one together. A country like Germany, who imports many resources, has to make a quality product, as their keel selling advantage. Just like timex verses a Swiss hand made watch. Timex and sell them by millions to make money, while the Swiss use quality for profit.

Its not that we don’t have the technology or know-how.. Overseas, GM and Ford make plenty of Hi-Tech and efficient cars. America has plenty innovative technology, and everything else it steals

[Edited by TexMaximum on 12-07-2000 at 06:43 AM]

Black VQ

We don't even get the best of the Japanese products. I posted in the OT forum about one of Nissan's mental 4-bangers that makes the S2000 engine look like a slacker. How does 200hp from an NA 1.6L sound? Now that is some superior technology. It might be short on torque, but it makes more hp than the Mustang V6 which has over twice the cubes!


Oh, and the NSX isn't as fast as a Viper. It's close to a 'Vette maybe, but keeping up with a snake is outta the question.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

So what did the office crowd say??

Francis96se

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but, why does HP/L really matter? I don't think it does. Really what should matter should by HP/weight of engine. Right?

Micah95GLE

It's because of motorsports. For the most part, the only racing that American manufacturers compete in is the WUSSCAR series. That requires them to use the same engines that they've used for 40 years. Now, European and Japanese companies have been competing in high-tech road racing for a century, so they are experts at advancing technology in cars. And thanks to trickle-down, their road cars get all of this technology. What is good for a race car is good for a road car (small, lightweight engines with high output and good driveability; good fuel efficiency; good handling; good braking; reliability; lightweight chassis).

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Not really. I see American cars competing w/ Japan/German cars in GT touring series?? Or something like that. The main reason Domestic engines tended to be larger is becuase up to a few years ago, they never put much r&d into dohc engines and heads(ie.. 4 valve dohc heads) So in order to get the same hp as others, they just increased the size. Actually alot of the domestic V6s are just V8s w/ two cylinders chopped off. That actually explains the reason why pushrod/2 valve head V6 are still around. Very cheap to develope and it's what the domestics knew. And when they needed to get more than 210hp or so, they just slapped an Eaton supercharger to the motor. Again this is alot cheaper to do this rather than develope a new engine. So in reality, the domestics have been milking their old pushrod V6 for as long as they could. Although Ford has just spend a few billion to develope their MODULAR engine series called the Duratec line. Same basic block and head design for their 4.6 V8 and their 3.xxx V6 and maybe their 4 cylinders too(I'm not sure)

Also consider when the Domestics have tried to develope a new small engine(like the OLD quad 4) Nice engine, good power but very noisy. They just can't or don't want to spend the time to make a nice 4 cylinder or nice 6 clyinder. But Japan/Europe have had nice 4 cylinder engines for 20 years. And when you apply their superior head design to V6 and V8 dispacement, the result is good hp, good fuel mileage and good emissions.

Micah95GLE

Nope. None of the American manufacturers are in upper levels of road racing, except for the Viper and Corvette in FIA GT racing (they both still use their normal low-tech engines), Ford in Formula 1 (their engines have always been built by Cosworth, and Ford currently sucks *** in F1), and (a recent addition) Cadillac in the LMP class. Cadillac is the only American brand that has attempted to be hightech in regular production. Could a twin-turbocharged Northstar be coming down the pipeline (that's what the LMP racecars use)?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I saw something on SpeedVision w/ Mustangs/Vettes/BMW/Porsches/Integras all racing each other. I know there are diff classes all racing each other.

It's not high level racing like F1 though.

Micah95GLE

Yeah, that's just street cars that have been lightly modded for racing by independent teams. What I'm talking about is a factory effort to push the limits of technology and make it useful and practical. Then the factories tend to use that knowledge for their new road car designs.

Lordrandall

iTrader: (4)

Darn guys don't seem to know how to put a manual tranny in a hi-po sedan either......

Eric L.

Well, for one thing, most domestics have adhered to using fewer valves in their larger engines. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it does reduce the efficiency for an engine of that particular displacement. But if you compare the gas mileage of a Corvette to a GS400, I bet you won't see much difference. In fact, the Corvette probably gets better highway mileage (6th gear).

If you look at Japanese cars, you see 4 valves per cylinder. VW/Audi uses 5 valves per cylinder. Mercedes has somehow found a way to make decent power from 3 valves per cylinder (it has a big single exhaust valve instead of two). Domestics have made some ground with building multivalve engines for their small cars. But for larger engines, there is still some way to go. Recently GM made a deal with Honda to purchase its V6 engines. And Honda made a reverse deal to buy GM's V8 engines!

I don't get where people here get the idea that American car companies are behind in technology. They may not apply the latest technology into their new vehicles, but they certainly possess the ability to build engines every bit as powerful as Japanese and European models. If there is one single flaw with domestic models, it's the lousy build quality. We all talk about how America is the best when it comes to quality and workmanship, but we all know that's not true with its cars. While I'm sure a majority of the people building American cars work very hard, there are the lazy ones are the weak link in the chain, and ruin the car. Plus, it seems that domestic manufacturers are more concerned with building lots of poorly made vehicles than building a few solid ones.

Urquan400

Don't American cars have good V8s? I don't know much about them, but they've been making them for a long time so they should be at least decent, if not one of the better V8s out there.

Yup, domestic manufacturers have bad quality control. Toyota is building Camrys, Siennas, etc. here in the US and look at their reliability. Still good.

Cap'n Carl

1)Economics. The USA has usually had the cheapest gasoline in the industrialized world, and a relatively wealthy population that's been willing to pay for large cars with large engines. It's only fairly recently that Detroit has concerned itself much with selling cars abroad, where the market is more towards smaller cars/engines.
2)Dollars/horsepower. If you're making a car and want x horsepower, it's cheaper to just make the engine bigger than to find the hp thru r & d. This cost effectiveness shows up in the final product. Forget about comparing a $50000 Infinity to a $20000 Mustang. In 1987, 5 liter Mustangs delivered more accelerative performance than anything in its price range. This still holds true; what new $25,000 car can out run the new Z28/Firebirds? What new $70000 car can out run the Viper? Sorry, the NSX may be a far more refined car, but the rude & crude Viper will eat it alive at the track.
3)Torque for hauling large vehicles. If you want low end grunt, go with a bigger engine. Now that the Japanese automakers are building larger SUVs and trucks, you'll notice there's a rush to make larger engines.
4)Torque for fun. I have a supercharged 3L V6 that makes more power than the 5L in my old Mustang did. But the V8 was more fun--no waiting for revs to build; my foot asked for power and the engine said "here it is", not "just a second".

jw82

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