Is there anything i could do to helP?//

As i discussed with SOUNDMIKE aka MIKE <==hehe I am really upset with the way things are on my 2k2 Max 6speed...

In fact, i would love to screw over nissan some how after their service department has screwed me over numerous times...

As for the car itself, it seems that a new problem appears every week!!

Bottom line, I WILL NEVER EVER BUY ANOTHER NISSAN AGAIN....

And if they do offer to buy my car back, i will tell them to take it for sure... and go get myself a low end BMW or even a honda <===OMG i never thought i would ever say that!..

ED

 

I've got a 2k2 SE auto, bone stock with 13k miles. I'm in CA also and will look into getting it dynoed.

 

We both make good arguments don't we?

 

I try..

Only thing I'd like to see is peace maintained between the Altima and Maxima camps. I'm just doing my part to be helpful..

 

I filled out a long statement about the 15HP & paint chipping at the BBB. I was also thinking of calling a District Manager who works for Nissan out in Torrance.

 

If you show them your dyno sheet to prove that the engine has a 15hp deficit the district manager will probably say you abused the car and now your warranty is void. I hope we don't all lose more than we win on this!

 

Not a stock 6 Speed by any means, but I made mention to my sales-lady at my Nissan dealer today when I picked up my 350Z. She said that she has NEVER seen any dyno charts come across the sales desk.

If Nissan did dyno the car at 255, then it should be simple to reproduce it. Seeing how we are currently unable to come even close to doing so, wouldn't it be nice to know the CONDITIONS under which Nissan tested the car? If it was tested in a refridgerated room that was 50 degrees, the back seat/mats/etc were removed, and the car was a base GXE with no options (lighter weight) - BUT STILL STOCK (as in "I can purchase the car" and recreate the testing environment), then that's one thing.

But from what I'm seeing so far, not a single dyno'd car has come close to what Nissan claims. And yes, I've seen the commercials for the 2003 Maxima claiming 255 HP, but also that the 2003 Maxima claims to have 260 HP. Maybe one commercial is older than the other, but the next time it happens, I'm gonna call the TV station/network with the information and request a copy of the commercial's creation date, author, director, etc. Then we'll know how new/old the commercial really is.

As far as the lawsuit goes, I care, but I don't. I'm more about the principal of it all. I'm not gonna say "I won't ever buy a Nissan again" because that's not true. Nissan is the ONLY car brand I've owned where the car didn't have MAJOR problems (even during the warranty period). So to say "I'll go get a Riding Lawnmower from Honda" (better known as a Civic) is not fair. But at the same time, I'm not gonna let this one get by. If they want to buy back the car, then fine... I'm keeping mine. But I'd like to see either some money back or an ECU upgrade/replacement first. Or... I'd even be willing to let Nissan get away with it, but only if they release the code for the ECU. Then that would allow us to change the settings on the car, and possibly make MORE than the 15 HP they robbed us of.

My $0.02 worth. If you don't like it, oh well.

 

that's prettyy much EXACTLY where i am, serivce sucks, i'd love to screw nissan over for doing it to me and i'm gonna get a used BMW as soon as possible.

 

DMBMAX,

doesn't it suck that NISSAN has fell down like this?? I am very upset..


How is that lawyer thing going??

ED

 

I have a 2003 maxima SE WITH ONLY 95 MILES .... I BOUGHT IT FRIDAY

 

Break it in before you go on a dyno.

 

you all are going to boycott Nissan now? See, I am upset over this but not enough to not care about Nissan anymore. I would still pick this car over the Camry XLE V6, the Accord EX V6, the Passat, and others. All cars have their problems, we just don't know enough about the other car makers problems because we don't own one and we aren't apart of their club. Honestly, if we had a few more thousand to spend, I wouldn't be here now, I would own a TL-S.

Maxima = still the bang for the buck

 

i'm not boycotting nissan, i just wont buy another new one BECAUSE of the service and overall owndership experience which was horrible, not because of or mostly based on just this. it's just a bunch of stuff that compounded and this just makes it worse.

 

When are you planning on presenting this info to the lawyer and Nissan? I'm planning on dynoing my 2k2 SE auto in mid-January, and I'm wondering if that's too late.

 

even the tl-s has problems....... The CL-S and the TL-S both have transmission problems....

 

that might be too late but i'll keep everyone updated. the lawyer is already gathering all teh info andi'm helping as much as i can. im not sure when we will present this to nissan yet.

 

The fact that our engines are not producing advertised horsepower ratings doesn't have anything to do with quality or service issues. If you bought a 5 pound ham at the store, got home weighed it and found it to weigh 4 pounds, wouldn't we have the right to feel cheated? Wouldn't you take it back to the store and complain? If you paid for 93 octane gas, got 87 octane and your engine ran slow because of this, wouldn't you feel cheated? This is what this issue is about, not getting what we paid for!

 

I'm gonna get my '03 GLE dynoed on the 26th and I convinced my buddy who has an '02 Altima 3.5 automatic. How soon do you need these?

 

THOSE NUMBERS ARE GONNA BE PERFECT, thanks a ton. as soon as you can get those numbers to me i'll be wicked happy lol. both auto's same dyno those numbers are gonna be great. do you have access to a video camera or digi cam?? just make sure both cars have 93 octane and check the air pressure in the front tires, this is gonna be exciting.

 

well too bad nothing can be done on 2000-2001 paint chipping and rotor warpage

 

read this article about warped rotors, then you will see the rotors are fine, its the pads and break in process that didnt work

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm

 

Again, quality of product is not what this issue is about. It's about being cheated. Unless Nissan intentionally made paint that would chip but I don't think that is the case. They intentionally rated our engines higher than what they really produce. Read my previous post above.

Needless to say, I was a little bit disappointed when I dynoed my engine and it only made 194.1 hp with an advertilsed hp of 255. I don't think there is that much drive train loss.

 

That's not quite right. Nissan lowered the HP rating prior to any magazine testing. They came out with revised HP figures in mid July of 2001. They said it was due to US emissions. If you look at European or Australian versions of the same engines, they are 5 HP higher.

 

Some of the Nissan product guides I have on the maxima say it has 260HP.

 

How is it that the 2003 Altima has 245 hp all of a sudden? How did they make that 5 hp boost? Did they just SAY it has 245 hp because the new Accord has 240 hp and they want to beat Honda? Man, I want to be part of the class action if people with a 2002/3 Maxima are suing.

 

well if you want to sue for the Altima, you need a 2002 V6 Altima and a 2003 V6 Altima with the same options...and test it at the same time. Then GOOD LUCK.

 

1. It already had 245 HP, since it was underrated.
2. When Honda came out with its 240 HP engine, it was time to report the true figure.

 

im in on this! Where do I sign?

 

So are you guys only going to report the dynos you get that are favorable to your cause? Or will you consider them all? Like for all the stockers making 205+ to the wheels (which is around 80% of 255), are you going to ignore those numbers?

 

The most drive trail loss we should see is approximately 18%. Anyone with a car making less than 209.1 fwhp should expect Nissan to make what ever modification required to give the engine the avertised hp. If your engine dynoes 209.1 then no we wouldn't expect Nissan to fix what isn't broke. We just want the hp that we paid for. Mine dynoed 194.1 hp with 93 octane fuel. I feel I've been cheated by 15 hp. If your car dynoes 209.1 hp then you got what you paid.

If for example your rotor warps you wouldn't expect Nissan to replace rotors on all cars. Only the ones that are defective. Same with our hp numbers. Only if you car is not making the advertised hp should we expect Nissan to fix it.

 

if you can show me a dyno of an AUTO making 209 hp at the wheels or a 6-spd making 217HP at the wheels i'd like to see them. right now there are none that i have seen. i've seen 208 on a 6-spd i think which is still about 8-9 hp short. and no we wouldn't ignore those numbers but the VAST VASY majority aren't making anywhere close to the power they are supposed to, and the most compeling arguement are the auto altimas and auto maximas making almost exactly the same hp with the same tranny, 17 inch wheels and the maxima is supposed to have an engine with 15 hp more. thanks.

 

Hi, guys,

Just write a certified letter to Nissan Marketing Dept.
Ask them to assure that 2002 Nissan Maxima is indeed 255 HP,
ask them to have an assurance letter back in one week. I mean how
long does it take to type "Yes, it is." ? If they don't response,
keep your cetified letter receipt and do it again ubtil they
response, in the mean time, keep all the certified letter receipts
for later court actions.

Come on! They've been selling these things for years, they should
know better than anyone of us, and should know right on the spot
when the question been asked.

Once we got the assurance letter from Nissan, we can start
collecting all Dyno evidences to see if they match to what Nissan
has replied. Then we start from there.

Don't call them, write to them, talk does nothing, and it's
useless when you get on the court.

I think it's time for consumers to teach all these American Corps
one thing ------------ "Stop Lying!"


Lyl797

 

Hey guys,

I've only read 4 pages deep into this, but felt I had something to offer. Hopefully I won't beat a dead horse here, so forgive me if this stuff has been posted. Anyway, here goes:

I'm a Mustang Cobra driver, and while I didn't have one of the Cobras that were affected by the lack of power (actually mine made more than it should stock), I do know what the guys did for the 99 Cobra as their plight was all over the Cobra and Mustang boards in mid 99.

You are on the right track getting as many of your brethren to dyno their cars as possible. Documentation is the key. The ultimate thing to do would be to find someone willing to remove the engine and get it done up on an engine dyno. If you found it to be low, they couldn't call BS stuff about insanely high drive train losses. Of course you'd have to run it with the normal PCM and stock exhaust etc and the more engines you did, the better.

Just for your knowledge, drive train friction loss isn't a constant, according to DynoJet. I believe this has been proven on several engine and chassis dyno session, though I don't have the figures in front of me. Basically because hp causes heat and heat is friction, the drive train loss increases as you make more power. Again according to DynoJet. All that being said (which usually means a person is going to throw what they just said out the window) for cars making under 350hp, the figure is roughly the same for RWD cars: it is time and again proven to be right about at 12% ~12% (at least on the Mustang) give or take a percent (again for cars under 350-400hp). This figure comes from taking an engine off the engine dyno stand and putting it in a car and then chassis dynoing it.

A lot of people say that an IRS eats up tons more power. Again it has been proven (at least in the Mustang Cobra) to be untrue. There are some straight-line guys that have dynoed their 99+ Cobra's before and after a live axle swap and gotten similar results usually with the IRS eating 1 or 2 more hp.

I have no idea what a FWD drive train loss it, but think about it. If a company lets a car out the door that looses 18% or whatever through a drive train, that is WASTED C.A.F.E. which these companies live and die by. To some extent C.A.F.E (corporate annual fuel economy) determines how many cars they can produce and how much the greenies will be on their case.

If I were an owner of one of those Z's making 220hp-230rwhp, I'd start this up for that car too. My 240hp rated Cobra made that stock(220.8rwhp), and trust me, I DID not have a 287hp 5.0 Cobra, maybe a 260hp car, but that's it.

WHAT FORD DID

FWIW, Ford reflashed the PCM's with a more aggressive tune, replaced the upper and lower EFI intake with one that had been extrude honed, and replaced the mufflers with free flowing ones. The PCM flash was mostly done to accommodate the newer airflow #'s. The intake had cast flashings in it that caused restrictions and turbulent air. The mufflers were the worst. They didn't deserve to be on a 140hp Focus let alone a Cobra. The replacement ones still were restrictive as guys have gotten 8hp or so from a cat back swap. In the end, the 99 Cobra owners all got a leather Cobra jacket as well. I don't know if that came because of the hp debacle or what, but I smelled something fishy there...

Hopefully, Nissan will get you your power back. The worst (and cheapest) thing they could do would be to change the HP rating. The mediocre solution would be to give you all a check for $500 or whatever. The best thing for us car enthusiasts anyway would be for them to fix the damn problem and give you guys some incentive like the SVT Cobra jacket.

I wish you all the best of luck on this!!

 

If you know so well about these "magic numbers", please explain the dyno plot below. And please note that identical cars won't dyno identically, as there are production tolerances.

Quoted from my friend Ryan Fobart from another web forum:

Below is a dyno graph somebody did of thier stock 350Z that had just finished break-in. The only note would be this Z was running on 91 octane pump gas (I guess in Montana (where this guy is at) you can't get 93 octane).

actual 350Z dyno plot

Those aren't "wimpy numbers" per se. 243.6 RWHP and 240.81 RW Torque is the best of the best on that dyno sheet. So lets do some math:

350Z Stock numbers from Nissan: 287 HP and 276 lb/ft of torque.

287 * .15 (15% drivetrain loss) = 243.95 HP @ the wheels
276 * .15 = 234.6 Torque @ the wheels

Nissan numbers: 243.95 // 234.6
Shown Dyno #'s: 243.6 // 240.81

These numbers look pretty on target to me -- and that's on 91 octane. On 93 octane, the numbers should be even higher, reflecting a lower/more true drivetrain loss ratio.

I still don't know how different dyno plots from different dynamometers in different parts of the country with different conditions will hold up in court. But if it worked for the Cobra folks, good luck to you Maxima guys. It would be nice if Nissan paid for actual engine dynos done on the various VQ variants, but a lot of people would still be calling "foul"

 

Two other things that I failed to mention and they are huge:

1. DynoJet #'s tend to be higher than Mustang Dyno(another type of chassis dyno) From what I understand the Musatang dyno uses simulated loads where the DynoJet's simply let the car spin up a huge drum. If someone says that he made 220hp on a dyno jet and someone else made 210 on a mustang dyno, the exact opposite may be true if the cars swapped dyno places.

2. Automatics tend to eat more power than a manual. If you have an auto and it lays down 6hp less than your friend's car, that in my book would be normal.

 

I've been looking at some of the dyno graphs and I can see what your problem is in general. Your torque nose-dives at 4800-5000rpm. You have a ramp up of HP, followed by a plateau instead of any real hp peak. To make horsepower from a smallish displacement motor, you'll need to spin it up, and it has to make good torque higher in the RPM range since horsepower = (torque x RPM)/5252. This nosedive, at least to me, means there is some kind of restriction killing higher RPM airflow. Has anyone had the EFI manifold (not the rubber intake tract) off and looked inside it? Maybe it has the same problems that the 99 Cobra did. Has anyone done a back to back dyno of a catback swap? Or headers, etc? I hesitate to ask, but what about a chip? I know they are usually useless unless you get one done up custom to your setup. I don't even know if these parts exist yet since the car is so new, but I thought I'd ask. If someone finds horsepower paydirt in a simple swap, then you could at least fix the problem yourself if Nissan gives out some type of check.

 

like I said, I was there and saw the numbers. There was a huge turn out from the maxima.org members from southern and northern california to back me up on this.

Just cause one Z dynos at that 244 hp to the wheels, doesn't mean that all the Z's will dyno at those types of numbers.

 

Thanks for the good info. If 12% is a more realistic drive train loss then we have even a bigger hp loss than we thought.

 

Is it possible that if the Altima and Maxima put down similer numbers on the dyno Nissan will just come back and say 'They both make 255, we just under rated the Altima'?

How much would it cost to get an actual engine dyno done? Is it possible to get the lawyer to pay for it? (He stands to make the most) Or take up a collection from 2k2/2k3 owners?

 

I just want to point out that 12% is typical RWD hp loss. FWD my be 18%. Again, the only sure fire way to test this is to get an engine or hopefully more, on an engine dyno and see what they make. Then you'll know what your drive train eats. If they do make 255hp and Nissan let a drivetrain fly with 20+% loss, then if you are into racing, it seems an aluminum flywheel and lighter half shafts would be in order.