smittybizzle

I got my tranny fixed this morning and I must say this has been a good purchase . As stated above the shifts are snappy but good . I think the problem you all are having with the banging issues are because of you line solenoid's adjustments . Mine was doing the same thing and yesterday I did some adjustmnents and the car was worse than ever . So this morning I did 8 turns in on the SLU (lock up) and 4 1/2 on the other two now I have no more banging . Adjustment starts when the threads are latched in on the solenoid adjusters . Also thanks Corey you the info .

VR6toVQ

Ok you guys tht did the transgo kit...
My tranny has about 20k on it with a rebuild still has some issues like 2-3 on fast acceleration seems to take to long.and slams like once a week...not tht bad but still not good, fluids browning and I plan on doing the transgo kit. Ok now for my question after you guys had the kit installed and put miles on it has the fluid darkened at all? I just wanna kno if the kit makes the issues go away or makes them not as bad. If tht makes sense at all lol

smittybizzle

My fluid has been the same light color . The kit can and will fix most issues but for me I'm getting a new valve body in the near future .

VR6toVQ

Ok just wanna be sure because my trannys completly rebuilt and its only been 20k miles and my fluid is getting darker and still has a warranty so I'm gonna see if they will install it under warranty, I def. Don't wanna try this myself its nothing like a gm th350 lol and I don't need to throw my $2000 tranny rebuild out the window.

Were did you get your kit from?

VR6toVQ

Ok just got of the phone with my tranny shop...they told me tht they will look at my tranny but said the transgo kit doesn't work and I shouldn't get one...wtf

smittybizzle

Thats what I would say also if I wanted your money lol . The kit does work , also just change your tranny fluid and also look into getting a tranny cooler .

VR6toVQ

Its my dads friend and I told them that I was gonna pay for the kit...they told me to bring it in and they will look at it and fix the problem, they rebuilt the tranny all ready...I don't know what to believe right now the trannys under warranty for another year if I go somewhere else and get the work done the warranty is done

kazmadrid

hey guys i rebuild my valve body in Valve Body Builders four month ago and my car run great but when i checked my transmission fluid was brown so i don't know if i have to do transmission flush or just leave it like this

VR6toVQ

Just change it don't do a flush...if it gets black then do a tranny flush

VR6toVQ

Or it might be the other way around

mnmcmillan

Okay I have spent my entire day reading this forum and I would first like to say thank you for all of the information I have found.

Okay the problem.

I bought this car last week from a friend for $1,000. It has 77,000 miles on it. He parked it 4 years ago because the transmission just shut down on him and he then moved to Germany. Now that I have the car I have had the Tranny rebuilt to include a new torque converter. They stated that the clutch packs were fused together. So Tranny is done and it is shifting hard and slipping when at operating temperature. They recommended me to take to the dealership to reprogram computer. It still slams into gear and gets stuck in 5th gear after driving for 10 miles or so. It is back at the transmission shop for further review. Do you all think that if I went with the Shift kit it would solve my issues....?

Sirrmiike

Anyone know where I can get the kit installed in New York? It's just been sitting here, 3 mechanics that I've spoken to so far have no idea what to do with it.

Preferably in Queens, but any of the boroughs is fine.

rgp32

I sent you at PM. I've had tons of issues on my Maxima and need help!

smittybizzle

If you know your tranny is really messed up then this kit will not work .

truckd

Hello all.
Ok, so I have the Valve Body (new oem) & fluid. I understand you can use RTV in lieu of a gasket, but what else should i get before the swap? Filters? New bolts? Anything? Thanks in advance

scrui

You are good to go. The only Torx bolts you have to worry are from the outer cover. The heads of the bottom ones were a bit worn from the elements. I just cleaned them and reused them. You will need a Suction Cover gasket. You don't need any filters. Take your time and follow my instructions and you should be fine. ((( Read very carefully )))

How to change a Valve Body

Lift the front end of the car about two feet, high enough for you to get underneath and have
easy access. I used ramps. Please make sure car is lifted safely so there's no serious injuries.

Drain oil from transmission, use allan key to remove plug


Remove battery & battery plate. You will be able to see the upper bolts.


Also remove this bracket.


Now you are ready to start unbolting Outer cover, but first spray Torx bolts with WD40, wait a few minutes before loosen them. The manual tells you not to reuse them,
well let me tell you they cost $8 each at Nissan, I reused them. I cleaned them up with wire brush and break fluid cleaner.
Tip: A couple of the bottom ones were a little more worn from the weather, so when reinstalling put them on top.


Below Pic # 22 Remove Suction cover bolts first. (this little cover has a gasket that's very brittle, it will most likely break if you try to handle it. Tip have a new one on hand when reinstalling).


I strongly recommend having a second person working with you, one can be underneath the car and the other on top.
I had more then one person working with me so we chose to unbolt first then to disconnect wires, if you are by yourself then I would recommend disconnecting before unbolting them just like on the service manual.
From underneath take out bottom and center bolts first, then from the top take out upper bolts, be sure to hold on to valve. You will notice they are not to tight,
remember this when reinstalling not to over tighten them, if you have a tork wrench better for you. I didn't have one so i just used same pressure to tighten them.
Once you pull the valve out, two small washers will either fall off or stay behind. from my photo one fell right away and the other eventually fell off also. these two washers were in excellent condition, so i reused them. In order for these two washers to stay up use vasoline when you reinstalling new valve body.



Here you will start to disconnect all the wires from the selonoids, the S1 - S5 were easy to disconnect, but the PS1 - PS3 were a pain to disconnect.
All the connectors are color coded and measure to length. when you reconnect them it's hard to make a mistake.



Remove bolt from sensor.


Installing new valve;
Place two washers with a bit of vasoline on them back first, then
while holding control valve assembly, connect the parking lock rod sub assembly to manual valve lever sub assembly. Then make sure you put the right bolts were they belong,
(what I did was, as I took one out I placed them on a towel picturing the valve, this made it easy to reinstall in order).
Don't over tight them, remember how they felt when you took them out.
Connect all the wires, again they are color coded and measured to length, but be carefull ok. Make sure they are all connected.


Follow these instructions to put cover back.


wait an 1 hr for RTV silicone to cure before putting new oil.
I lost 3 1/2 qts of matic k oil, so i replaced 3 1/2 qts of new matic k oil.
check for leaks, tighten accordandly.

Good luck.

jay3250

iTrader: (1)

Well fellas, wish me luck. My car is in the tranny shop right now and I have just ordered the transgo shift kit from ebay. The symptoms I am having are when I go down the interstate for over 45 miles and get off it will take too long to shift from 2-3 causing my rpms to jump. Driving around town the tranny performs flawlessly it's just after I drive the car for an extended period of time. I hope that this will cure my problem. What do you guys think?

brillowpad

Man watta Buncha bs I paid 2400 for a rebuild and all we needed the whole time was a dam Transgo kit....ahhhh no disrespect but this is definitely my first and last Nissan

CXJ Performance

iTrader: (3)

lots of people are out there that do not know of the kit or the oem valve body replacement is the key to this fix. Nissan knows of it and its the reason why the made the cvt transmission.

Costee

The cvt was actually an independent innovation. It was already used on the Murano from 2003 quite before the 6th gen. Nisssan decided to use the cvt on the 6.5 gen (2007/08) when the 5speed of the 6th gen became problematic.

smittybizzle

Nissan knew of the valve body problem so they put the CVT tranny in the 07-08s . They new it would cost too much money to warranty the valve bodies and damaged transmissions like the should so they switched to a cost effective tranny . To me it's sad , the 6th gen ran for 5 years and for the last two years of the generation they wanna change the tranny , come on red flag . I love my car but I hate this new version of Nissan .

mizterwizard

First I would like to thank all of you for the many posts with detailed information. I don't actually own Maxima but I have small shop and one of my customers has exactly the problems discussed here. If I get the go ahead to fix it I'll do the valve body swap and flush.

I originally thought because of the black/burnt oil that a replacement was the only answer but with your experience I'll try the flush first. I'd like to offer my experience on flushing a transmission.

Most of the oil in a transmission is in the torque converter. Replacing the oil in the pan only does about a 1/3 -1/2 job. Therefore to get rid of a reasonable amount of bad oil it is necessary to do a drain and fill several times. Even then some of the oil removed on the second, third or additional drains will actually be some of the expen$ive new oil recently added. Lots of old oil will always remain. There is a better way to do it than repeatedly draining and refilling.

Start the engine and run it in park or neutral until the transmission is fully warmed up. This is necessary because some transmissions don't fully circulate ATF until a thermostat opens inside the transmission or cooler.

Drain the pan as usual.

Remove the pan, wipe it clean and install it with a new filter and gasket / sealant if that applies.

Refill it with the PROPER fluid. I usually over fill it by a quart or two at this point.

Remove an oil cooler line and run it into a drain pan. It is best to remove the return line from the cooler to the transmission at the transmission since then the cooler will get flushed also.

Start the engine and let it idle until oil stops flowing into the drain pan. You should get some air mixed with the last of the oil. That is when to stop. Don't wait until nothing comes out at all because what will actually be happening is you will be running the transmission with no lubrication. A moment of this won't hurt but too long will trash your transmission. This is where we separate the gear heads from the wanabes.

Refill the transmission. Again I usually use a couple of extra quarts.

Again run it out into the drain pan. The last of the fluid should look like new. You can stop draining as soon as it looks good but I usually run the second batch completely out just like the first.

Finally put the cooler line back on and adjust the ATF level as per the manufacturer.

This method takes about half an hour longer than a simple drain and fill with filter change but you get nearly a 100% flush in one go. It usually takes 2-4 quarts more ATF than the transmission actually holds because there is some mixing of fluid in the converter as it flushes but not much if you keep it in park or neutral. You should count on 10 qt for the 5 speed and 12 for the 4 speed. There are expensive flushing machines that don't do as good a job as this.

There is a very good reason that the oil gets black and stinky. It is because the transmission is running too hot. The best thing you can do to prevent all of the problems discussed in this forum from recurring is to install a heavy duty cooler after making the recommend valve body repairs. Cool solenoids don't go bad and cool oil stays red. It is the best use of $100 for your transmission.

CXJ Performance

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the tip but i need some lessons and understanding. The maximas are cooled via antifreeze coolant for the transmission and oil. Wouldnt you risk running the car too hot without the coolant in the car? We also use rtv sealant in place of gaskets for the transmission pan as well

When you get the go ahead for this job please share a few pictures. I am always up for learning something new.

sdycyb

Guided to here by Google. I'm actually not a Maxima owner. One months ago I bought a 2004 Quest SE with the same engine and RE5F22A as the Maxima you guys have. As a student with two children I really want to do the job by myself.
I read all the 943 post before me and learned a lot from you guys. It looks like I'm still at an early stage of the VB failure. No "bang" between PRND or gear shifts, but the shift at 15~30 MPH (I'm assuming this 1, 2 and 3 gear, right?) is sometimes harsh and I saw the flare (RPM jump by 500~1500 when shifting) for quite a few times. Even though I might only want to keep the van for 1 or 2 years I still want to get the VB repaired for the peace of mind.

I have doubts regarding to the Transgo kit. It seems that MOST ppl asked shops to install the Transgo kit except one or two guys. Is it really a hard job that non-professional DIYer's shouldn't try? Any special tool needed?

I'm leaning toward this kit only because it is the least expensive part. I read the removal procedure by SCRUI and believe I can handle it. But for installing the Transgo kit I have no clue at all.

Thanks in advance.

sdycyb

BTW, in case someone hear the ticking noise from the timing chain cover and want to save some money, you may try to only replace the timing chain tensioner, around $70 at dealer. Pain of *** to install but much much easier and cheaper than opening the whole cover. In my case, after the replacement the noise only lasted for less than 0.5 seconds when the engine starts and no noise at all after the start up. I'll be happy if I can get at least 17K miles from this repair as someone else claimed. For only $70.

RevmaxValveBodies

We just wanted to chime in here and say hello! We are in the final steps (waiting for our status to change to sponsor) of becoming a full supporting sponsor of this site.

After browsing this thread we found an alarming trend of users trying the Transgo shift kit to fix their valve body issue. The Transgo kit is NOT a good way to properly fix these valve bodies. In fact it causes more damage then doing nothing at all in most cases! Once our sponsorship is official we will post a write up of the reasoning we strongly urge all of our customers to stay away from this "fix".

We currently rebuild a very large number of the 5550Sn / RE5F22A valve bodies. The units we provide are fully updated with Sonnax updates and rebuilt solenoids w\ our proprietary stainless steel solenoid armature bushings. The quality of our product is second to none, and our pricing is affordable. We offer exchange valve bodies so that the customer experiences ZERO downtime. If any of you are in the Charlotte, NC area we would be more than happy to show you around the shop and give you a crash course on what we do here!!

Please feel free to PM, post, or email any questions you may have on these valve bodies. We can usually diagnose issues related to valve bodies in just a few minutes over the phone as well!

CXJ Performance

iTrader: (3)

Installing the kit is much easier than getting access to the timing cover for that tensioner that was replaced. You can do it as long as you take your time and read thru it. I didnt change any gaskets and i have put almost 3,000 miles since then with no problems. I went this route due to it being the cheapest cost but if i have any problems down the road i know its going to need a oem valvebody but for now its doing its job.

mizterwizard

Parts are on order and I'll do the flush, valve body swap and cooler when they get here.

In my first post I was trying to be generic in my description of how to fully flush a transmission. You are right that this transmission uses RTV on the pan, not a gasket. The pan is on the front side of the transmission and covers the valve body.

I can see how you would think I meant to remove the antifreeze lines from the trans cooler but that's not what I had in mind. You don't need to do that to flush the transmission. On most cars the cooler lines carry ATF between the transmission and the radiator. Nissan does something very different by bringing coolant to the transmission instead of ATF to the radiator. Here is more detail for those who could use it.

The stock transmission cooler is a device that looks sort of like an oil filter with coolant hoses coming out of it. It's mounted on the front of the transmission between the pan and the bell housing. The hoses tap into the heater return hose using a device that contains a thermostat. If you plan to address the issues discussed in this forum the very first thing to do is be sure the thermostat is working.

The cooler attaches to the transmission with a central bolt. By removing the bolt the cooler comes right off. There is no need to undo the hoses, just let it dangle.

To flush the transmission remove the drain bold and empty the transmission. Install the drain bolt and add 6 quarts of matic K. Put a BIG drain pan underneath where the cooler bolted on. At this point you will have the transmission about 2 quarts over full with fresh ATF and the converter will be full of the old black stuff that used to be ATF. Start the engine and stand back. It may splash a lot. When the ATF stops flowing strongly and some air appears shut the engine off. With luck the last of the oil coming out will be fairly clean. Now the transmission is empty but the torque converter is nearly full of fresh ATF. Refill the transmission with 4 quarts. Now the transmission is full of the good stuff and the torque converter will be nearly full of the same. Start the engine and run it out again until you reach the point where your wallet says it's clean enough. As soon as the oil cleans up you can stop. No need to run all of the second batch out if it starts to look like new. Put the cooler back in place with a new O-ring, top up the transmission and take a short drive. Adjust the fluid as needed, check for leaks and you will be done.

A transmission works best if it runs within a certain temperature range. Too hot burns (oxidizes) the oil and cooks other components. (think deep fat fryer) Too cool and the oil cannot rid itself of condensation and is too thick to flow through valves and metering holes properly. The design temperature is usually in the range of 180 to 220degrees. By 300 degrees the oil life drops to almost nothing. Pure synthetic oils can go a bit higher. Nissan will not warranty any RE5F22A that has ever had anything other than matic K.

The RE5F22A is used under other names by several manufacturers in many vehicles and works well. The Maxima 3.5L engine puts more power (heat) through it than any of those other applications though so this is the one that shows where weaknesses lie. The stock cooler just isn't enough to get rid of that heat in many cases and so here we are, trying to figure out how to fix it.

Since the trans cooler is in the same circuit as the heater what it is actually getting is some of the hottest antifreeze in the system. It goes through the heater core first and gets cooled some there but only in the winter when the transmission is least vulnerable. In the summer the coolant coming out is about as hot as it was going in. Just when you need it most the coolant is the hotest. If that antifreeze was cooled by another radiator first the transmission would get more cooling.

I am thinking about the possibility of getting a wrecking yard heater core to connect in series with the transmission cooler to lower the coolant temperature before it goes to the cooler. I haven't come up with the right heater core yet so I'm not sure where this will wind up. It needs to be fairly flat and wide but they tend to be thick and narrow. Regular coolers have tubes that are to small to pass enough coolant and might make things worse.

mizterwizard

I forgot to mention the deal breaker for these transmission upgrades.

The very first thing to do is drain out all of the old ATF that you can into a clean container and examine it.

Expect it to be black and stinky. For most transmissions that's enough to condemn them but in this case that may not be true. If you are so lucky that your ATF is still red then count your blessings.

Take the black stuff out into the sunlight. If it sparkles that's aluminum and the transmission is toast.

Stir the black stuff with a clean magnet. If it gets fuzzy that's iron/steel and you need a rebuild.

Check the bottom of the container for ANY debris. If you find much at all you are done. Get another transmission.

Finally as you stir the oil look for swirl. Swirl is like when you stir cream into coffee but it is more subtle (black on black) and persistent (never mixes in). If you have swirl that is clutch material in the oil and again you are at the end of this transmission. A tiny amount might pass but not much.

If there is no sparkle, no swirl, no fuzz and no debris then you are good to go. There is a high likelihood that all you have is burnt oil and deep fried solenoids. It's at least worth trying a valve body, flush and cooler.

mizterwizard

I have a heater core from an old Mercedes 220D. Is is a dual core design for separate heat on the driver's and passenger's sides. The tubes are 16mm in diameter and point out the sides of the tanks. I have split them apart because together they are too big to fit on either side of the center support that runs in front of the A/C condenser on a Maxima.

I will mount these with a kit that Hayden sells to reinstall transmission coolers. It's about $15 at most parts stores. HDN * 251

I plan to plumb the two heater cores / coolers in parallel to minimize any increased resistance to flow.

I removed the thermostat from the system and tested it. When it is cold coolant returning from the Nissan heater core can either pass straight through and back to the engine or it can divert to the transmission cooler. Since the path of least resistance is straight back to the engine that's where most but not all of the coolant goes. When the thermostat is heated to 180 degrees F it blocks the passage that does directly to the engine and all of the coolant has to go through the transmission cooler.

The switch is strictly related to the temperature of the water returning from the heater and has nothing to do with the temperature of the transmission. In the winter it is entirely possible that this thermostat will never divert coolant to the transmission. If the weather was cold enough, the heater was on full and the engine wasn't loaded very much the coolant leaving the heater could be less than 180 degrees F. It probably wouldn't need much cooling under those conditions but I've never heard of an automatic transmission that didn't need any cooling, even in winter.

If this was my transmission I think I would eliminate the thermostat, install a transmission temp gauge and perhaps block off the add-on coolers in the winter. Since it's a customers and the customer is a twenty-something female I think it would be expecting too much to ask her to watch the trans temp and adjust cooling accordingly.

As a final note to this post, I am convinced that the transmission cooler is also a transmission heater. I believe that Nissan wants the transmission to come up to a certain temperature range asap and stay there. Hence the thermostat / cooler design. I just think they underestimated how much cooling the transmission would need.

texas6

I just replaced my OEM valve body with one from level 10.
It did the trick, shifts smooth as when the car was new.Li'll pricy but it got the job done.

mizterwizard

I got the valve body. It was from Level 10. Flushed it like I talked about above. Tested the thermostat as described above. Installed the two heater cores as described above.

The new valve body came with a broken solenoid. The box wasn't damaged so I suspect the valve body got dropped before it was packaged. Level 10 has another on the way but it is an additional week delay for my customer and another hour of work for me that I can't bill out. I installed the valve body with the old solenoid so my customer could have it back if she really needed it. So far it's still here.

As is the transmission is perfect except coasting from higher speeds down to 20mph and then stepping back into the throttle yields a flair/bang shift. Level 10 says that is what the old solenoid is controlling but we'll see. If the new solenoid does what I expect it will, the fix will be complete. I think the shifts may be just slightly firm but I like that. Probably with a little more adapt time they will smooth out even more but it's not at all bad as it is now.

The total bill on this repair will be almost $1500. Of that about half is the valve body with shipping. Another $100 is a case of MaticK bought on ebay. If you can do this yourself you could save a bundle.

I got into mechanics because I thought it was too expensive to pay to have a car fixed. I do everything I can to try to cut costs for my customers. This repair, even with my labor, diagnosis and research costs, is way cheaper than the transmission swap I originally expected. I'm poorer but my customer is richer and in the end I feel good for having done what I feel is right.

I would like to thank everyone here for sharing their expertise, experience and musings. It's nice to know there are people willing to help just because that's how they are.

mizterwizard

Just in case you are thinking about doing this yourself but are fearful of getting in over your head let me say that it isn't really very difficult. If you have any mechanical sense at all you can do it.

When the pan is off the front of the transmission make some notes about where all of the wires go. They are color coded and tend to fall back next to the connector they belong on but notes may boost your self confidence.

More importantly, pay attention to where the bolts and brackets come from. You only have to take out the ones with 10mm heads. The 8mm bolts can all stay in place. Keep track of the length of each bolt. I didn't and spent some time swapping them around to get them back in the right hole. If you have the replacement valve body in hand (as opposed to sending yours in to be overhauled) you could set it on a clean piece of cardboard and use a screw drive to punch holes in the cardboard where each bolt passes through. Then as you remove bolts just put them in the corresponding hole and the problem of bolts in the wrong holes won't ever come up. You could use the same cardboard to note the location of wires and brackets too.

A helper to hold the valve body in position while the first few bolts are started could be real handy. It can get heavy if you are holding it in one hand and trying to start bolts with the other.

The torque on valve body bolts isn't really as critical as some people might lead you to believe. Just get them good and snug without really cranking on them. I've never seen a valve body that was warped by improper torquing. I have seen some leak from loose bolts but that was from the factory. I've also seen broken and stripped bolts from over tightening. Use a torque wrench if you don't have any feel for it but it isn't usually mandatory.

What is mandatory is to keep it all clean. Don't work in blowing dust, keep your hands clean and don't set the valve body down on anything that isn't clean. A little grit can make it worse than it was to begin with. There is no such thing as too clean but you don't have to be obsessive about it.

Be sure to plug all of the connectors back in properly. Double and triple check this. *

YOU CAN DO THIS.

smittybizzle

I want to add one thing if you get the transgo kit get new gaskets .

R ANGEL

Can you let me know if the new solenoid fixes the bang shift at around 20mph? I did this job myself close to about a year ago, and I also notice the bang shift that you talk about every once in a while. This happens specially when traffic is moving around the 20mph, it feels like when you drive a manual trans car, other than that the car drives fine. I got my valve from Valve Body Builders out in Canada.
Thanks.

mizterwizard

In short, no. I called level 10 and they suggested driving it "like you stole it" to get the adapt to work. That didn't fix it. Then they suggested adjusting the black solenoid valve (the top one) out half a turn. That softened everything a bit and made the 2nd downshift bang much less harsh. Actually this might be a little more like it would shift from the factory. I preferred the firmer shifting it had before the adjustment but the bang down shift into 2nd was just unacceptable. Now I can still make it bump by slowing from 40+ to about 27 and step into the throttle about 1/3 - 1/2. It's hard to make it do it all of the time but when it does it it's very noticeable. I could try another adjustment of the valve but that might make everything else too soft.

I gave the car back to my customer who seems to be pleased. Time will tell.

The oil has gotten dark again in spite of the thorough flush I did. I think there was so much crud built up that it was plated out on everything inside the transmission. The new oil had a lot to clean up and is doing it's job. I have suggested another flush to after 1000 miles of driving. I think that may be the final fix.

I also talked to the Canadian company before I bought this valve body. I think they have a very similar product but I'm not certain. My symptom may not be the same as yours. If I don't get going faster than 40mph so that it will shift into 4th or 5th it doesn't do it. Just driving in slow traffic in the 20-30 range this transmission is always smooth. The 3-2 down shift if fine.

mizterwizard

I think I am done with this transmission. I'll check back a couple more times to see if there any more questions for me because I'm very grateful for all the help I've gotten here but then I'l move on. Thanks to all of you.

po8pimp

Might want to think about adding an extra transfer cooler.

Safiloo1

I dont have the problem ...yet. I was thinking if i can just change the blk, Blue and green solenoids fix the problem? or i have to put the whole VB? Because the main reason this tranny sucks its because those 3 solenoids. Or nobody tried yet. when it happens to me I will buy the 3 of rostra and be the guinnea pig.

Costee

Yeah, changing the solenoids is a possibility all right. But that seems to me to be a long shot. Even Nissan's TSB on the issue, while pointing accusing fingers at the solenoids, still recommend VB change. I think, as many have adverted, the VB (with the tranny?) suffers from some design flaw. The Transgo kit, and the remanufactures of Level Ten and others are attempts to correct this flaw or at least circumvent it.