but the specs on that one were still cleaner than they used to be. I feel that some people here aren't concerned with clarity justy volume. Just out of curiosity what would rank as top 5 clean amps?

 

I didn't know ppi sucks now that's a drag! I had a ppi4800 60x4 running infinity kappas and it was powerful and clean. I probably won't use kappas again there a little too harsh.

Soundstream doesn't suck now too do they? I know they use to be clean and powerful. I might try the tarantula this time around.

How about the Soundstream XXX-10000D @ 1ohm? lol I'm going deaf thinking about it.

 

same deal on the ss, they used to be almost top notch, but not so much anymore.

 

I'm still confused then. Might be missing something. The specs on the DCX800.5 are still better or almost identical with the power, THD and S/N ratio as amps on the market today inlcluding ARC, Rainbow, DLS, Audison, JL, kicker, audiobahn and a few others. I'm not trying to argue this amp being better I'm just trying to argue the research. So obviously if I missed something I'd like to know so the next time I recommend and AMP to somebody I know i researched the right stuff. Plus I've noticed some of these amps have a limitation to the voltage input of 5 volts several HU's have 6+ volts still. So please let me know if I'm going about this all wrong.

 

Don't get caught up in a numbers game.

Would you be satisified with an amp made by pyle because it had the same ratings and specs as an Arc amp?

 

Ok well I'm confused then. Certain factors make things an obvious contender in being a nice amp. Price - well i'm pretty sure a $100 amp isn't really going to compete with a $500 amp. I'm not talking retail but ebay where most of the markup is taken out of the picture. Specs - a reputable company won't get by with advertising incorrect specs they'll get sued or recall items usually. Reliability - wouldn't be selling much if they broke. Reviews - usually the only reviews you get on higher end stuff are which one is better for the price.

So where are the facts coming from of which amp is better than the other. Personal experience which is biased due to car/stereo setup or incorrect setup. Magazines/Stereo shops favoring certain brands, JL being one I can't remember how much custom "professional" setups I saw years ago that everybody was running JL 12W0's or 12W3's. Those subs were junk I bought a few of them cause thats what magazines and stereo shops were pushing.
So once again are there really any facts stating some of these amps suck or is most of it just based on price or the possibility that a manufacturer used to underrate there amp so its seemed like it was alot better than it really was and now days amps are more honest on their ratings.

 

try alpine pdx amps

 

WE are fortunate to have a guy on this very board that has actually tried A LOT OF STUFF...he's OLD too so he's had a ALOT of experience. He sells them out of his own shop and knows what comes back. There are others here also that have tried many many setups in their lifetime. THAT's where the facts are coming from.

 

In MY opinion you simply get what you pay for. With that being said alot returns do not always equate to a bankrupt or a low income company. Sony uses theyre mobile line as a write off for all other products that they actually do fairly well in. Pioneer has been having HU issues for the past three years, the list goes on and on but none of these companies are going anywhere any time soon.

What determines a good-better-best situation is simply the build quality,parts,material,labor,etc. Origin to me means nothing at all. If the product is made on the edge of Antartica but performs to or exceeds its printed specs Ill be happy.

I tend to deal primarily with higher end not so often heard of lines due to these exact things .. quality,parts,support,warranty,etc. While a Best buy warranty for a couple bucks will get you a few years of coverage it really shouldnt be needed. This also brings to be mind .. would you prefer a long warranty and have to use it often or a slightly shorter one and Never have to use it? When it comes to a point of the procut being out of your car more often than in then its a product that 'sucks'. Unfortunately most mass marketers nowadays are looking at bigger numbers and not appealing to the consumers ears or mind, but rather their pockets.

As for cost of different products its simple.. large companies buy large orders of parts and from where they can be sourced the cheapest. Higher end, but smaller companies do a bit more research and buy higher quality parts. Thus leaving you with a higher overall price tag. Its not a profit game, but just rather the cost of enjoying what you want.

 

Nothing against that but that's what I'm saying it's slightly biased just like any other shop. Sorry not to down anything but it's just like all the performance shops out there. They are supposed to know what they are doing any you find out most of them don't really know what's going on, granted stereo stuff is alot less complicated than speed shop stuff. But it depends on that persons taste and ear and setup being tested. Quality and comebacks well I definately see that as being usefull. I guess I'm just frustrated since there isn't any real testing going on and certain products are basically being called crap based on opinions. I've seen PPI and Orion called crap just because they are owned by DEI which does has a history of crap. So where are the facts I'd like to see maybe a sticky on certain products with high and low points of each. Such as the power doesn't match up to what's advertised. The specs show it should be a clear setup but for some reason sounds like crap with X speakers. I see alot of people saying X product used to be much better 10 years ago well I find that hard to believe that comparison, I think it's more like what you remembered. The electronics now days are way cleaner than they used to be especially head units. A decent lowend headunit nowdays is cleaner than my Alpine 7939 used to be not to mention the speakers, alot due to the price back then I doubt somebody spent 2000 on MB components and 850 on a competition cd player which that quality can now be had for 600 now. I don't know what the history of reviews were around here so I'm definately not arguing that certain products are or aren't as good but without something to explain it it's very difficult to just trust somebody opinion cause they've got experience.

 

When it comes to products I give an entirely UNbiased opinion. Take it for what its worth. While there is several events of tested products its typically more kept to an 'insiders' info level, not to be shared with the general public. Why? Well I think that answer is quite the obvious. Im also not just a retailer but a regional rep as well. I have hand selected the products that I rep for and endorse them 110%. When starting my marketing firm I could have went for the easy to sell and make large commission products, but I chose not to. Its simply not my goal. With nearly 20 personal years in the in this indistry and about 17 professional Ive forgotten more than alot of people learn. In this day and age generally speaking people buy on a whim and dont do their research, later hurting them.

As for the products .. Yes theyre more technologically advanced (iPod,satellite radio,HD,etc) but far from being 'better'. Major manufacturers make what pleases the masses, unlike the late 80s-early 90s when I product actually amounted to something. I would also strongly disagree with the Alpine statement above, theyre product quality and some features even have gone rapidly downhill again to please the masses with interfaces such as iPod, but losing crediable features like preout,TA,PEQ,etc. A fast iPod interface will not make anything sound different, the others will and do.


You will still pay a premium for the products you mentioned above and alot of my clients do it daily. Id love to see one of my HUs in the $600 range.

 

I definately agree most bigger companies are trying to fill there pocket. Which yes years ago they amounted to something because there was a need for better quality but unfortunately most consumers now days are happy with stock systems with a few add ons driving the quality down to just add like you says ipods and such. The HU's are in my opinion pretty easy to choose what you need just look at specs and features, speakers not quite as easy much still easy enough I'm biased to MBQ's my Q or P series but that's what I've ran forever and find it hard to try anything else since there really nice, though about boston Z series once untill I saw the price. As for the Alpine comment yes the new stuff is junk but a decent (in my opinion, which I guess is still on the high end of any manufacturer) HU as way better than it used to be. My 1997 Alpine 7939 which was the top dog for alpine when i bought it new and used it for one year and boxed it back up, couldn't compare to my Alpine Fantom Face unit 3 years ago. I pulled it back out of the closet right before I bought the Fantom Face and wasn't impressed with it at all I did back to back comparisons with both in my Civc running mid MBQ's and then in my friends Del Sol that was running mid grade bostons and his lower grade Alpine also sounded better. Sorry for the history there which brings me back to the amps since you really can't see the quality, you can see gimmicks such as the audiobahn and the gay flames. Other than the specs and for you that can see the comebacks and warranty stuff how do YOU Perl96Max go about determining which product stands above. Obviously I'm only worried about top end stuff. Let's compare my setup to what you would recommend (leaving out the back speaker argument) Eclipse CD7100, MBQ PCE 213 5.25 components in rear doors and MBQ PCE 216 6.5 in front door with tweeters in A pillar stock location, JL 12W6V2 in sealed box on the "tight" side of the JL recommended size and PPI DCX800.5 rated at >100DB S/N ratio and .08 THD+N. I would have gone with the Q's but when I bought them 3 years ago the Q's were 3 times the price which was about 3 times the price I paid for my civic. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way if that comes off I just want to better my knowledge here and unfortunately there's too many people around (being every forum) with too many oversized junk in bandpass boxes and such not looking for real quality. So this setup is what I know, I know it's better than 90% of the crap out there I want to get familiar then with the stuff that is equal or better for next time.

 

Unfortunately its not that easy to just go spec shopping nowadays. MANY of them are horrible altered or measured outside of normal conditions. Alpine (yes again) for example claimed 4V preouts on alot of their HUs (pre major decline) and was tried and proven drastically wrong. With most peaking at a mere 2.1-2.4 / couple hundred variable resistance @ full tilt. And please dont bring up CEA certifications, they are a joke and more or less a gimic. Theres only three labs in the US capable of approving 'CEA standards' and theyve all been in the biz for enough years to have brushed arms with some major companies. A few bucks can go a very long way.

I determine what stands above based on CONSUMER feedback, reputation of the company,background of the manufacturer,parts used,how assembled,who the designer is,return ratio,etc .. I put ALOT of thought into the products that I endorse.

I wont recommend anything for your application without knowing the exact car, your listening habits,type of music and what your ulimately trying to achieve out of it.

With that being said I will touch on the product:

CD7100 is an excellent HU and wouldnt hesitate and all to use one if I had the use for it. I stand by Eclipse 110% and they do that for their customers and dealers the same.

MBQs are the furthest from my clients list as well as my own. I find the mids lifeless and lacking in lower extension, the tweeters are quite bright and need Alot of taming. Now MBQ as a whole is a good manufacturer and have dedicated years to building good products, but you asked for MY opinions here, many others Im sure will chime in and agree.

The W6V2 is actually a good sub and I have liked what Ive heard from it, but thats where JL should have stopped. JL was a company when they made subs. Instead greed took over and they wanted a larger piece of the pie. So while I may like the sub a bit, the company I will not in any shape or form endorse.

Interesting that you brought that amp up. I had a customer a few months back bring me one of these, thinking that it held gobs of power. He declined my original recommendation of an Arc 5150 multi channel. After a few weeks of playtime and a dead amp he decided to give the Arc a try. His comments were as follows: "Oh my God, how could it be so much louder now with a less powerful amp?" " It sounds so much better and louder I could have saved a hgeadache with the other one." May not be exactly verbatim, but pretty darn close.

 

I definately agree on the MBQ's it does take alot of time and patience to get then tuned in properly. Still a bit surprised on the AMP though as I've always had to turn mine down it's overpowered my components and my sub. Sub is probably for due to the tight enclosure I chose. I listen to mostly rock and heavy metal style music where I want to emulate a drum set as close as possible, Hit hit hard and leave quick with no resonance. Car is an 02 Maxima. I usualy go for clean no flash installs, amp up under the the rear shelf out of the way, speakers tweeters in factory spots hidden away but making sure there is adequate room for excursion and a simple sealed and easily removable sub box. I'm really surprised though sombody would think an amp with gobs of power most amps really aren't rated very high. The PPI is only a 50x4 @ 4ohm and 400x1 @ 2ohm which just fits into the low power side of the MBQ and just on the High side of the JL. Honestly I couldn't imagine louder most people complain about it being way too loud when it's cranked up. So I'm guessing ARC would be one of your top choices for an AMP? So since I narrowed down the music and car down a little any other requirements to make recomendations. I usually just listen to it at a moderate level, you know some high speed jamming. My girl likes to crank it up quite a bit and occasionally when I'm feeling retarded really turn it up.

 

My 12 year old PPI Sedona 460ix is still kickin'! Old school amps are increasing in value for a reason...you gotta spend big* money to get quality sound and reliability out of new amps.

*=over $250, because I'm a cheap.