2000 VI is now on and running on my 96
#81
Yes, any aftermarket 350z injector or even the STOCK 350z/DEK injector is a 50cc improvement.
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
But aren't those only 290 cc/min? Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to the 5th gen injector discussions over in boosted. <== me
Nevermind, you're probably talking about aftermarket injectors for the 350Z, eh?
Nevermind, you're probably talking about aftermarket injectors for the 350Z, eh?
#82
Originally Posted by Big D
I read that they used lighter moving parts to get more power on top of the manifold and the exhaust. Explain how lighter parts wouldn't make more power. If all the internal moving parts in the engine weigh 1/2 of what the 4th gen parts weighed don't you think that would free up some power?
1. Where exactly did you read the DE-K had lighter internals?
2. Saying lighter internal parts add HP is like saying a lightened flywheel or UDP add HP, which they don't BTW.
Originally Posted by spirilis
i'm pretty sure the lighter valve components are to decrease the probability of valve float at those high RPMs (especially 8K)
#83
Originally Posted by IwANnAMaX96
2. Saying lighter internal parts add HP is like saying a lightened flywheel or UDP add HP, which they don't BTW.
Lighter flywheels, crankshafts and UDPs do not add hp under a constant load at a specific RPM but they do make the car go down the track faster and do show up as a hp increase on an inertia dyno.
#84
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
No, they're heavier. They used vanadium steel for the rods to reduce the weight, however not to VQ30 levels.
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
This is a PROTOTYPE. Once people start following his lead, easier/better methods will be found. After a while, the custom fab parts will be eliminated and this will end up being LESS money then the MEVI with a FUEL UPGRADE to boot.
#85
Originally Posted by IwANnAMaX96
1. Where exactly did you read the DE-K had lighter internals?
2. Saying lighter internal parts add HP is like saying a lightened flywheel or UDP add HP, which they don't BTW.
Huh? We're talking about the HP gains on the DE-K. If the DE can rev to 8K w/stock valvetrain, so can the DE-K. What's your point?
2. Saying lighter internal parts add HP is like saying a lightened flywheel or UDP add HP, which they don't BTW.
Huh? We're talking about the HP gains on the DE-K. If the DE can rev to 8K w/stock valvetrain, so can the DE-K. What's your point?
#87
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Lighter internal parts such as pistons, rods and valves DO add hp, but without changing the BSFC. It's all about efficiency.
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Lighter flywheels, crankshafts and UDPs do not add hp under a constant load at a specific RPM but they do make the car go down the track faster and do show up as a hp increase on an inertia dyno.
Any replies you have please PM them to me. I'm always willing to learn. I don't wanna clutter this thread anymore.
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
No, you were correct.
#88
My take on this is how I would classify making "net" horsepower and not "gross" horsepower. Lighter internals do not add gross hp. Gross hp is only determined by the Brake Specific Fuel Consumtion and air mass intake.
Anything that you can do to an engine that will allow it to transfer more engery past the crankshaft to a 'brake' dyno is considered a power increase. An it does not matter how much fuel or air you added, equaled or subtracted.
The general rule of thumb is if it can show up on a brake style dyno as an increase then you added power. Rotating masses such as crankshafts, flywheels and pullies do not effect the energy transfer to this style of dyno thats why we don't call them power adders. However lighter pistons, rods, wristpins, valves, retainers, locks, valve spring rates etc. do allow the engine to transfer more of it's raw energy past the crank into the brake dyno.
Anything that you can do to an engine that will allow it to transfer more engery past the crankshaft to a 'brake' dyno is considered a power increase. An it does not matter how much fuel or air you added, equaled or subtracted.
The general rule of thumb is if it can show up on a brake style dyno as an increase then you added power. Rotating masses such as crankshafts, flywheels and pullies do not effect the energy transfer to this style of dyno thats why we don't call them power adders. However lighter pistons, rods, wristpins, valves, retainers, locks, valve spring rates etc. do allow the engine to transfer more of it's raw energy past the crank into the brake dyno.
#90
Originally Posted by IwANnAMaX96
So the DE-K does have lighter internals?? Hmmm... Do you have a link, i'd like to read that.
#91
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Show me a stock DE+MEVI dyno that holds power from 6000-redline like this DEK:
Show me a ypipe/intake/catback/UDP DE+MEVI dyno that *PULLS* to redline like these THREE DEKs:
One more DEK+StillenIntake+Ypipe *PULLING* past 200whp@6K:
Show me a ypipe/intake/catback/UDP DE+MEVI dyno that *PULLS* to redline like these THREE DEKs:
One more DEK+StillenIntake+Ypipe *PULLING* past 200whp@6K:
I have yet to dyno with the JWT ECU, but I'd estimate I'm close to around 200fwhp/195fwtq now. Requin6 has a great dyno of his MEVI/JWT ECU 4th gen with power basically holding straight to 7000rpms. As you can see, both the MEVI and DE-K peak out around 6100-6200rpms and then the rpms hold and drop VERY slowly. I go from 189fwhp@6100rpms to 185fwhp@6500rpms. to me that drop isn't really worth noting. If you want to argue about 100rpms at the peak, fine, but in the overall performance it doesn't make much difference. If you compare the 203fwhp dyno to my 189fwhp dyno, you'll see that the power difference below 5500rpms are pretty small. We're talking about 5-6fwhp/tq if that. After 5500rpms is when the DE-K starts to really open up with gains of 10-14fwhp/tq over my MEVI. So basically below 5500rpms there's a minimal difference, but above 5500rpms there is a fairly substanial difference.
This is a PROTOTYPE. Once people start following his lead, easier/better methods will be found. After a while, the custom fab parts will be eliminated and this will end up being LESS money then the MEVI with a FUEL UPGRADE to boot.
Dave
#92
Originally Posted by IwANnAMaX96
Huh? We're talking about the HP gains on the DE-K. If the DE can rev to 8K w/stock valvetrain, so can the DE-K. What's your point?
#93
Originally Posted by Dave B
Thanks for posting those dynos and it further proves my point. Here's my DE with a Y-pipe, intake, UDP, and the MEVI.
And that you're putting down ~15whp and ~10wtq LESS then a DEK with similar mods?
I have yet to dyno with the JWT ECU, but I'd estimate I'm close to around 200fwhp/195fwtq now. Requin6 has a great dyno of his MEVI/JWT ECU 4th gen with power basically holding straight to 7000rpms.
As you can see, both the MEVI and DE-K peak out around 6100-6200rpms and then the rpms hold and drop VERY slowly.
I go from 189fwhp@6100rpms to 185fwhp@6500rpms. to me that drop isn't really worth noting. If you want to argue about 100rpms at the peak, fine, but in the overall performance it doesn't make much difference.
If you compare the 203fwhp dyno to my 189fwhp dyno, you'll see that the power difference below 5500rpms are pretty small. We're talking about 5-6fwhp/tq if that. After 5500rpms is when the DE-K starts to really open up with gains of 10-14fwhp/tq over my MEVI. So basically below 5500rpms there's a minimal difference, but above 5500rpms there is a fairly substanial difference.
Also, what wheels were you running? I'd bet lighter then OEM 17s, right?
I understand that, but we're talking about Maxima.org where most of the people are clueless about working on their cars. I have a hard time seeing people who have wrenched very little on cars feeling comfortable relieving fuel pressure, removing fuel lines, disconnecting and swapping injectors, splicing injector wires, reworking vacuum lines, etc. Hell, most people in the Org still think the MEVI "install kit" is some special item you have to order when in reality it just stuff you get from a junkyard, NAPA, and Radioshack. As for aquiring the DE-K manifold, I don't know what junkyards Kris is dealing with, but all the ones I talked to two years ago would not part with just the manifold. It was the motor or nothing.
Dave
Dave
Last, lets wait and see what the dynos show before we discuss anymore "my point all along" and "my arguement" points, eh?
#95
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Actually, this could probably be done using a 4th gen lower manifold/injector/rail. Krismax just decided to swap those also for the fuel increase, which required the lower for the injectors.
Im 100% interested in doing this when summer rolls around, it'll add some power to my "other" swap.
Hmm... you know theres a 2000 I30 that sits next to my car in the garage at my house, wonder if my parents would notice the lack of high end power
#99
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Say what? What point was that? That with your Ypipe, intake, UDP, and MEVI, you're still not putting down what a stock -K does?
And that you're putting down ~15whp and ~10wtq LESS then a DEK with similar mods?
And that you're putting down ~15whp and ~10wtq LESS then a DEK with similar mods?
I'm not denying that the DE-K makes more power, but my point was the difference in power below 5500rpms between the two manifolds is pretty minimal. It's only from 5500+rpms where the BOLT-ON DE-K (last graph, 203fwhp) exceeds the power of the MEVI. That was my point.
Also, Krismax's will skew our dyno comparisons because he is running a ported manifold and Pathfinder TB. I guess our closest comparison will be Mike's I30 MEVI/JWT ECU when he dynos with the Pathfinder TB. As for 1/4 mile performance that too will be hard to compare because Kris has done quite a bit of weight reduction and weight is more of a factor in the 1/4 mile than power is.
Dave
#100
Just drop in the whole DEK.
maxS already has IIRC.
maxS already has IIRC.
Originally Posted by BSwithTF
I'm attempting a DE-k with MEVI first and then swap over to the '00 manifold. I'll try to get dyno's from each and see which is better and by how much.
#101
Originally Posted by Dave B
Which dyno are you looking at? Look at Russ's dyno (the first one). That's on the same machine I dynoed on so it makes the comparison even more legitment. Russ's STOCK 2001 isn't making the same amount of power as my MEVI with bolt-ons. His DE-K makes 183fwhp@6100rpms and peaks out. I made 189fwhp@6100rpms. The shape of the curves is basicially the same. My runs were on 48lb 17" rims at the time.
Look at his torque below 3000rpm WHICH YOU CLAIM "I suffered no losses in power until about 3300rpms. .... I'll also note the MEVI actually gained me power below 3000rpms.. So, you have gained vs. a typical MEVI dyno. Yet, you're not breaking 175ft-lbs. and he starts at 175ft-lbs and climbs.
From 3K-4K he's around 193ft-lbs vs. your 3000-3500 "hump" to 184 and your DROP back below 175ft-lbs for 3500-4000.
4000-5250 is pretty even.
5250-6000 yours is linear/bows a little down(loosing acceleration), while his climbs/arcs up(gaining acceleration), just not as high by ~4hp vs. YOUR BOLT ONs. Throw an intake and he's with you NOT to mention a ypipe.
6100-6400 yours drops slightly and his does some funny twitches.
AGAIN, you have BOLT ONs.
Once you compare STOCK vs STOCK or BOLT ON vs BOLT ON, MEVI doesn't stack up ESPECIALLY in the upper range.
I'm not denying that the DE-K makes more power, but my point was the difference in power below 5500rpms between the two manifolds is pretty minimal. It's only from 5500+rpms where the BOLT-ON DE-K (last graph, 203fwhp) exceeds the power of the MEVI. That was my point.
Also, Krismax's will skew our dyno comparisons because he is running a ported manifold and Pathfinder TB. I guess our closest comparison will be Mike's I30 MEVI/JWT ECU when he dynos with the Pathfinder TB. As for 1/4 mile performance that too will be hard to compare because Kris has done quite a bit of weight reduction and weight is more of a factor in the 1/4 mile than power is.
Dave
Dave
#102
Father of the 00 VI
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: amsterdam ,new york
Posts: 3,330
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Quit looking at PEAK only Dave.
Look at his torque below 3000rpm WHICH YOU CLAIM "I suffered no losses in power until about 3300rpms. .... I'll also note the MEVI actually gained me power below 3000rpms.. So, you have gained vs. a typical MEVI dyno. Yet, you're not breaking 175ft-lbs. and he starts at 175ft-lbs and climbs.
From 3K-4K he's around 193ft-lbs vs. your 3000-3500 "hump" to 184 and your DROP back below 175ft-lbs for 3500-4000.
4000-5250 is pretty even.
5250-6000 yours is linear/bows a little down(loosing acceleration), while his climbs/arcs up(gaining acceleration), just not as high by ~4hp vs. YOUR BOLT ONs. Throw an intake and he's with you NOT to mention a ypipe.
6100-6400 yours drops slightly and his does some funny twitches.
AGAIN, you have BOLT ONs.
Once you compare STOCK vs STOCK or BOLT ON vs BOLT ON, MEVI doesn't stack up ESPECIALLY in the upper range.
Honestly, unless you can provide raw numbers or at least a better dyno image, I'm not going to agree.
I agree. krismax has thrown a bunch of other variables into the mix, so a direct comparison isn't really possible. *HOPEFULLY*, someone figures out a way to just run the 4th gen lower/rail/injectors and just the -K manifold.
Look at his torque below 3000rpm WHICH YOU CLAIM "I suffered no losses in power until about 3300rpms. .... I'll also note the MEVI actually gained me power below 3000rpms.. So, you have gained vs. a typical MEVI dyno. Yet, you're not breaking 175ft-lbs. and he starts at 175ft-lbs and climbs.
From 3K-4K he's around 193ft-lbs vs. your 3000-3500 "hump" to 184 and your DROP back below 175ft-lbs for 3500-4000.
4000-5250 is pretty even.
5250-6000 yours is linear/bows a little down(loosing acceleration), while his climbs/arcs up(gaining acceleration), just not as high by ~4hp vs. YOUR BOLT ONs. Throw an intake and he's with you NOT to mention a ypipe.
6100-6400 yours drops slightly and his does some funny twitches.
AGAIN, you have BOLT ONs.
Once you compare STOCK vs STOCK or BOLT ON vs BOLT ON, MEVI doesn't stack up ESPECIALLY in the upper range.
Honestly, unless you can provide raw numbers or at least a better dyno image, I'm not going to agree.
I agree. krismax has thrown a bunch of other variables into the mix, so a direct comparison isn't really possible. *HOPEFULLY*, someone figures out a way to just run the 4th gen lower/rail/injectors and just the -K manifold.
This all cost me under $1000. I would say best way and cheapest would to get a 2000 long block and use almost all the parts you need are from the 2000 engine. Thing I noticed is that the large EGR guide tube from the 2000 will bolt right from Exhaust manifold to 96 egr valve and 2000 small EGR guide tube bolts from engine right into the exact spot in the manifold. You dont need the large 2000 tube just wanted to see if they fit. The EGR gas temperature sensor from 96 tube will screw right into 2000 small egr tube ( the one you see poking into the neck of the IM)
Now for the hood there was no cutting of the hood whatsoever. And it does not touch the hood at all. If you had stock motor mounts I would say to cut out a small little piece under the hood .if you have a carbon fiber hood you will have tons of room,probably over a inch. You have to understand that from nissan making a more aggressive window slope on the 2000 the engine bay is smaller than the 96,thats why some peoples measurements of the manifold were off. The 2000 manifold has over 4 inches of clearence before it touches the manifold.
Now for the power I hit the rev limiter at 8000rpm by mistake just because it pulls that hard. Forty minutes about before the pics and video were taken my battery was hooked back up (after me and joe spent 40-45 hours over that weekend outting everything on and every part was made or bought at that point and everything planned out)and fired up and it had no time to adjust I must say now the pull is alot better now.
#104
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Quit looking at PEAK only Dave.
Look at his torque below 3000rpm WHICH YOU CLAIM "I suffered no losses in power until about 3300rpms. .... I'll also note the MEVI actually gained me power below 3000rpms.. So, you have gained vs. a typical MEVI dyno. Yet, you're not breaking 175ft-lbs. and he starts at 175ft-lbs and climbs.
From 3K-4K he's around 193ft-lbs vs. your 3000-3500 "hump" to 184 and your DROP back below 175ft-lbs for 3500-4000.
4000-5250 is pretty even.
5250-6000 yours is linear/bows a little down(loosing acceleration), while his climbs/arcs up(gaining acceleration), just not as high by ~4hp vs. YOUR BOLT ONs. Throw an intake and he's with you NOT to mention a ypipe.
6100-6400 yours drops slightly and his does some funny twitches.
AGAIN, you have BOLT ONs.
Look at his torque below 3000rpm WHICH YOU CLAIM "I suffered no losses in power until about 3300rpms. .... I'll also note the MEVI actually gained me power below 3000rpms.. So, you have gained vs. a typical MEVI dyno. Yet, you're not breaking 175ft-lbs. and he starts at 175ft-lbs and climbs.
From 3K-4K he's around 193ft-lbs vs. your 3000-3500 "hump" to 184 and your DROP back below 175ft-lbs for 3500-4000.
4000-5250 is pretty even.
5250-6000 yours is linear/bows a little down(loosing acceleration), while his climbs/arcs up(gaining acceleration), just not as high by ~4hp vs. YOUR BOLT ONs. Throw an intake and he's with you NOT to mention a ypipe.
6100-6400 yours drops slightly and his does some funny twitches.
AGAIN, you have BOLT ONs.
Once you compare STOCK vs STOCK or BOLT ON vs BOLT ON, MEVI doesn't stack up ESPECIALLY in the upper range.
I'll shut up now and wait for Kris' dynos (hears clapping in the back ground)
Dave
#105
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Anybody know if ALL 4th gens including '99 Cali cars have the SAME lower manifold?
#107
Father of the 00 VI
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: amsterdam ,new york
Posts: 3,330
Im using a summit rpm switch adustable from inside the car ,a led you see in the video lights up when it switches runners.
It set at 5250 right now but that will be dyno tuned as well as the engine.I think I may try 5750 rpm today.
It set at 5250 right now but that will be dyno tuned as well as the engine.I think I may try 5750 rpm today.
#108
Wow, awesome work guys!! After having a VI motor like the VG, I don't think I could ever drive one without it! This is definitely something to look into doing when I upgrade to a 4th gen. Does the motor winding up to WOT sound any different (in mine it's a rising tone that increases in level with rpm) now? Mad props on undertaking, installing and wiring this beast. It's about time the 4th gens had an alternative to doing the MEVI.
#110
Father of the 00 VI
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: amsterdam ,new york
Posts: 3,330
Even if power levels between MEVI and DEK manifold were equel the DE-k is better because it does not heat soak it gets mildly warm at most . It keeps the heat out of the intake manifold the aluminum manifold will lose a good chunk of power when 85 degree racing takes its toll.
#112
All VGs and 5-sp VE engines have a form of varible volume intake manifolds yes. The VE30DE is probably the father of the VQ versions. Although some say it's to help low end and not high end on the VE. I suppose it's in how you look at it. But if you look at the VE intake runners, it's very close in looks to the 4-5th gen manifolds
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Your VG has a VI?
#113
Good point~!
It definitely stays cooler then any other aluminum intake manifold I've worked with like my GA16DE.
It definitely stays cooler then any other aluminum intake manifold I've worked with like my GA16DE.
Originally Posted by krismax
Even if power levels between MEVI and DEK manifold were equel the DE-k is better because it does not heat soak it gets mildly warm at most . It keeps the heat out of the intake manifold the aluminum manifold will lose a good chunk of power when 85 degree racing takes its toll.
#114
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
Now you really should concern yourself with the stock valvetrain. The VQ35 retainers are the best option because they're lighter than titanium and only about $3 each from the dealer.
I have been waiting for a good opportunity to realease this information and this appears to be it. The VK45 titanium valves are near identical to the VQ30 valves. The only thing that is different is the total length which can be adjusted with new shims.
I have been waiting for a good opportunity to realease this information and this appears to be it. The VK45 titanium valves are near identical to the VQ30 valves. The only thing that is different is the total length which can be adjusted with new shims.
EDIT: Or are you referring to a mix of VQ35 and VK45 parts? What all needs to be replaced for a strong valvetrain here? (please list all the parts you think of)
#115
Father of the 00 VI
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: amsterdam ,new york
Posts: 3,330
On my350z.com Ive seen it said many times that the aluminum retainers will not take anything past like 7200rpm.
But if thats not true they would be the best choice and i would gladly use them.
But if thats not true they would be the best choice and i would gladly use them.
#116
krismax,
Are you willing to put together a comprehensive list of what parts and especially what CUSTOM fab parts were required to do this?
I *MIGHT* be able to get that IACV piece duplicated if that's the difficult part for people to make themselves.
Are you willing to put together a comprehensive list of what parts and especially what CUSTOM fab parts were required to do this?
I *MIGHT* be able to get that IACV piece duplicated if that's the difficult part for people to make themselves.
#118
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 1,756
Also, Krismax's will skew our dyno comparisons because he is running a ported manifold and Pathfinder TB. I guess our closest comparison will be Mike's I30 MEVI/JWT ECU when he dynos with the Pathfinder TB.
Great job anyway krismax. Can't wait to see the dyno results. (hopefully on a dynojet ).
#119
That was a very Interesting Read! Congratulations Guys!!
Now I have a question bugging me annoyingly: Can 2k-2k1 engine with the VI be installed on a 4th gen?
samoylov installed 2K engine into his 4th gen but with 4th gen IM and you installed 5th gen VI on the 4th gen engine. Logical answer I guess it could be done....
Now I have a question bugging me annoyingly: Can 2k-2k1 engine with the VI be installed on a 4th gen?
samoylov installed 2K engine into his 4th gen but with 4th gen IM and you installed 5th gen VI on the 4th gen engine. Logical answer I guess it could be done....
#120
Father of the 00 VI
Thread Starter
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: amsterdam ,new york
Posts: 3,330
Originally Posted by kevlo911
Did you change all 6 injectors or just 3? For hte wireing, did you just cut the old harness off and match the wires to the new injectors?