It seems that nitrous and E85 both have unusual properties. Nitrous can be a gas, an semi-liquid, or a liquid, depending on temp and pressure. E85 has basically the same effect on preventing detonation from E50 up to E100, according to a MIT study I read lately. Of course the amount of other fuel present will affect the jetting, but not the benefits of the ethanol. Strange - and the researchers couldn't explain it, but that's how it tested on their bench on a test engine

You would have to test each fill-up for true ethanol content. If you're racing with it, maybe buy a drum of E98 from a refinery and mix with race fuel. Lots of racers use the pump E85 and get along just fine - as long as it stays E85, that's a good plan. This is why I'm using VP C85 to learn how to mix nitrous and E85 - the VP is consistent.

 

No jetting problems here since the will be turbo

Maybe I'll just stick with 93octane and water/meth injection

 

Sounds good to me.... since I don't have a turbo.

 

wait I mis read, so going from e85 to e70 I'll only need to change the fuel map. Mmmmm so guess I'll need a egt gauge then

 

So how do you tune using EGT?

 

This is pretty much what i do with my hatch. I run pump E85, and mix a gallon of Q16 in for every 5 gallons of E85 pump. It has been pretty consistent that way as far as whp numbers, track times and datalogs are concerned.

Your thread is very useful. I plan to run a 4-fogger nitrous setup in the next coming weeks to try to dip down in the low 11s so hopefully you get to experience some more with the nos/e85 setup.

 

since your target a/f would vary so much it would be easier in mind eye to just go by exhaust temps and pulling the plugs

 

What temps do you look for w/EGT? 1100-1200 or higher? It takes me at least an hour to check plugs, since I have to disconnect the nitrous setup to uncover the front bank and the UIM to uncover the rear bank. And when I do, the NGK race plugs always look the same - white insulators and a fire ring nearly to the base of the skinny ground strap and a dark grey ring around the top of the shell. E85 doesn't leave much behind, it seems - at least not the C85 version.

 

Thanks for sharing info - not a lot of serious nitrous users on this forum. Did you have a reason for the C16? I've been thinking about mixing VP MS109, but maybe that wouldn't help... I need to get a bigger pump in here are see what the lambda looks like first. "it's always something"

 

When I first switched from pump 93 to e85, I made a huge power jump. But then after a few different times I was getting the pump e85, power was dropping and I was having lean conditions showing on the plug as well as datalogs in the 7-9k rpm range. I think I was talking to Tony at T1 at a track event about it and he was telling me about his mixture he runs in his sfwd integra.

In short, Pretty much it was advice from a pro-racer/builder/tuner.

And it's always something, that's for sure lol.

 

http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm

 

Well, that's interesting.. EGT at max torque as a reference. Hmmmm...

That could be worth wiring a 6-channel EGT monitor as a permanent display.

Here's some choices:
http://www.computech.com/exhaust-gas-temp-c-3.html

 

for you maybe not seeing how your buying vp gas and not pump e85 so the problem with what your getting shouldnt be a issue

 

Yeah, but I want to switch to pump E85 when I can learn to tune for it. Paying $85 for 5 gallons is kinda expensive over time. I do drive the car on the streets sometimes, and it drinks the fuel. No sippy-cup in play here.

I had re-gasketed the valve covers and got rid of a coupe of leaks, but now the power steering pump seems to have a leak - or drip, anyway. I don't want to use a rebuilt or used pump, but a new OEM pump is about $500. "it's always something"

 

time to ditch the power steering and get your build up those popeye arms

 

Sorry - I know what you mean, but I'm not going to remove any accessories and make a empty beer can out of my Maxima. There's people here that have done that and some are quite proud of their track times, but if my car weighed 900lbs less, the Shark would already be a rocket on it's way to Mars - plus they can't compete in the Street Legal classes - just the Tin Can classes. Right now I like it that way - ZZ Top in the staging lanes FTW.

Heck, I still have a red 93 D21 pickup in storage that I think would be a great home for a World 632" 800HP crate motor, Powerglide tranny and Strange rear end - just in case I want to go really fast.

 

Here are photos of my previous Aeromotive 340 fuel pump, showing side shots of the sock and a couple of end shots showing the exit port and the one-way valve mounted in the middle. Does this exit port look like it can deliver 340 LPH at 40 PSI? That's about 80 gallons in an hour? The tube O.D. is OEM-sized as well. This might be a reason for the lack of fuel I'm seeing - considering that E85 needs about 30% more volume than gasoline.









And yes, if you test one by pumping water and don't get it all out when finished, it will rust inside and freeze up.

 

It's here. It's big - but wait, I think I can make it fit.

Box-o-parts:


Special electrical connector:






Turbine blades!



More to come...

 

Misc photos of how to modify the stock pump clamshell for the 400:

Take out the rubber pads and grind and cut where shown. It will fit and the clamshell will latch shut.

 

I just need a fresh piece of 1/2" I.D. PVC tubing for a better return line, and I'm done and ready to re-install. Hardware stores are closed, so I'll finish this tomorrow.

 

The new Walbro E85 pump (stainless interior parts and shielded wiring) is labeled as a 485, and has enhanced pumping power. With 13.5 volts applied, and pumping pressure of 45 psi, this pump can deliver 110 gallons/hour. Crazy.... if fuel is 6lbs/gal, that's 660 lbs per hour.


See chart:

http://www.z1motorsports.com/product...oducts_id=6403

 

nice progress

wasting no time i see

 

I needs my alcohol !!! Unless something stupid happens tonight, I will test this humongo pump on nitrous and C85 fuel. Pity my DRs....

 

Got the tubing, assembled the pump module, and re-installed the whole thing. Tested with the small battery - moved some fuel, even with an empty tank - put in the 4ish gal of C85 I had pumped out and 5 gal of pump E82 I had bought lately, started up, and... the fuel pressure gauge jumped two psi, from 48 to 50 psi. I set the Autometer gauge reading back down to 45psi. Plus the tank fuel gauge still works. I warmed up the bottle in the trunk and went for a drive. It pulls really hard - but the lambda still is a 1.03. Of course the next step is to up the fuel jets and see what happens, but that's another night. I really love the throttle-controlled spray mode on the Maximizer 3.

Pix:






I insulated the top wire connector for the pump with 1-minute instant gasket stuff.






Inside the tank shots:







This is how you test E85... shake and bake, er, read...

 

Friday nite I changed out the fuel jets from the .017 to the .020 ones, bumping the fuel jets up four notches over the NX spec sheet. That evening I went out for a little drive - and spray - and guess what? No difference in the Lambda (1.03) while spraying a 26-20 setup as compared to a 26-17 combo. Pressures were 975 nitrous and 45psi for the E85. Saturday I rebuilt the fuel delivery plumbing for the fuel for the nitrous system. I moved the feed line from the return side tap following the fuel rail return to the incoming fuel for the rails and bumped up the feed line to a 6An hose to the fuel solenoid - a double-Y connector with three 6AN connectors. Much nicer looking -and when I took a warm nitrous bottle out for a drive, nothing had changed with the Lambda (1.03).

Two things are planned for tonight - I took the nitrous jets down to .024-.020 from .026-.020 , and I'm leaving the gas tank lid partially unscrewed in case I'm pulling a serious vacuum with all the E85 that gets pulled from the tank and sprayed through the engine.







The red fuel line and couplings are now 6AN.



Bucket-o-jets and ground-down 7/16" wrench



E85 being tested... this batch had some chunky stuff on top of the alcohol/water in the bottom.

 

Took the Shark out for a evening stroll with a warm and full bottle hooked up, sprayed the setup I mentioned earlier today - and NADA! If anything the Lambda was just a hair higher (1.06) possibly because of the full 15lb bottle, but this is not making progress. I swear this acts like a dry setup where all the fuel comes from the injectors, since the NA Lambda is about .77 or so..

Hmmmm.... I could just either disconnect the fuel solenoid and try a 2/3 throttle run or put in Monster fuel jets and see if anything changes. Maybe some .028 or .035 fuel jets, since I have some. Go one limit (lean) or the other limit (rich) and see if anything changes..

I must be missing something - but I don't know what ??? Maybe the little one-into-six fuel distribution block is weird somehow... ?? Off to eBay to shop for parts..

 

is the flow rating on the fuel niod enough to support this setup

 

I think so - it's a NX Lightning 15201L, rated at "500 HP" - using E85 amybe 350.

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=207

The nitrous solenoid is the 15300L, also rated as around 500 HP.

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=211

These solenoids were recommended by a V.P. at NX for high-flow use with the Maximizer series of nitrous controllers, so I bought these with E85 in mind.

There is a bigger Lightning alcohol solenoid, the 15302L, but this seems like overkill. It's a monster. At 375HP jetting, (fuel .030 x 6) that's only an equivalent .073 jet!

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=214

I wonder if the present fuel solenoid has a problem with the +12v power going to it - the runs for the solenoids are separate back to a switched battery bus. I'll check that tonight.

 

Tonight I dug into the solenoid wiring - everything was wired correctly, so I energized the nitrous system after opening the fuel and nitrous ground return wires and making a single short jumper so I could ground each solenoid to verify the +12v power - and they both clicked loudly when tested. Battery power is good on both of them. So much for that idea...

As a cross-check on performance, I connected both solenoids together and then to stage 1 of the Maximizer 3, so what one gets, the other one gets - for sure. Then I warmed up the bottle and went for a drive - and nothing has changed - still a Lambda of 1.03 while spraying WOT in second gear. That's way too high.

I guess the next thing is set up a test to collect fuel from the 6-way fuel distribution block and see how much is collected after "spraying" for 10 or 15 seconds (with the nitrous off).

EDIT: I'm going to make one more test tonight - I'll leave the nitrous bottle off, turn on the nitrous system, and go for a drive. With throttle control enabled, I'll gradually open the throttle in 2nd gear while watching the Lambda meter and see if the reading drops when the solenoids are triggered. Since I still have size 20 jets in the nozzles, (100+ HP) there should be a considerable drop in the Lambda display. If nothing happens, it's time to dissect the distribution block and nozzles.

 

I went out tonight with the bottle off and the nitrous system turned on, and found that when the foot feed triggered the fuel, the lambda dropped to .63, down from the NA .85 whatever.... Fuel was definitely being sprayed into the nozzles, making the engine run very rich. That part works.

Next I took off the fuel lines from the nozzles and took a closer look at the 3AN-3AN hoses. The center two are 6 inch and the outer four are 12 inch long, steel braided and rated for nitrous, custom made a long while back. I have a full set of numbered bits which I used to find the largest one that would fit - that was a #44 bit, measuring 2.12mm. The funny thing is that a larger bit would go into the ferrule a short distance, then stop. It took a #47 bit - 1.89mm to go all the way in. Apparently the compression force when the hoses were made crushed the ID smaller. AHA!

For comparison, a standard 3AN-4AN hose allowed #31-30 bits, which is 3.02mm-3.21mm. A standard 4AN-4AN hose would take a #26 bit, 3.86mm.



A real 4AN hose end..











Just to be sure everything's open. A little nitrous to clear the pipes...




I'm going to have special hoses made for the fuel system, but they don't have to be nitrous-rated so maybe I can get hoses with larger inside diameter - for the full length of the hose! At least there is an answer - all I need to do is have some hoses made.

 

hope that works

 

I'm sure it will. Stupid hoses.

 

Looks like you found the problem!

 

"Stupid hoses" I cut open one of my spares for the direct port setup and find the ID of the hose is about 4mm. That would be plenty for 300WHP of ethanol spraying if the connectors were the same size. I've ordered a couple of sample parts of another pre-made hose and a do-it-yourself connector - I'll see what I get. I also tried drilling out one end of the spare hose and find I can open it up to 3.2 mm. Gonna experiment with this drilling thing some more - it's bad when your connection hose becomes your metering jet...

"it's always something"

 

I woke up Friday morning with an idea on how to improve the fuel delivery for the nitrous nozzles. I had a pile of flared tubing pieces intended for a direct-port nitrous system, and I thought if I cut off the flared end of 12 of them, I could mount one of each of the 6 fuel distribution parts and the 6 fuel jets on the nitrous nozzles. I already had the tube nuts and sleeves, and all I would need is some 1/4"-3/16"I.D. tubing. Found two different types at Lowes and bought some of both, went home and started work. I cut off one piece of tubing with a HF 4" grinder/cutoff tool, drilled out the hole and sanded down the end. Both tubings pushed onto the stub. Since this is for fuel, I decided to use the Watts SPEB25 Polyethylene tubing since it's an opaque white. A dab of WD-40 and it slips on and doesn't come off. I worked on making three more "stubs", stripped off all 12 hoses from the nozzles and distro blocks, mounted four stubs on two nozzles and distro 3AN outlets. It was easy to cut two pieces of tubing and push them onto the stubs. Went to bed.

Today I made the rest of the stubs, mounted them on all the fuel connections, cut and installed the tubing - and that's done. Next will be the nitrous supply system. I found a 25ft chunk of 1/4" nylon tubing on eBay and a good Imperial tubing flaring tool - so I can use parts of the leftover steel tubing - and I'll do the same thing to the nitrous half. The tubing is rated at 2500 psi burst, so should be no problem there but I may need to wirewrap each stub to be sure I don't kick off a nitrous hose.

Oh yeah - I also measured the stainless nitrous hoses and found restrictions, so I carefully drilled out the compression fitting on each of the six remaining stainless hoses. I mounted those six hoses on the nitrous distro block and hit the block with a nitrous bottle. Lots of hoses waving around. This is temporary until I get the ordered parts to convert them over to nylon tubing. Let's see - 10x12" and 6x6" stainless hoses at $17.00 each, and they're all too small for more than 150WHP. I'm so pleased about that.

I''m going to warm up a bottle and go for a little drive tonight.

 

I did go for a drive last night - I used the 100-shot throttle-control program in the Max 3,but now the power level seems raised so that there is no traction in first gear with the M/T DRs, and it's nearly as bad in second. I was too busy hanging on to pay much attention to lambda readings, and I was in and out of the throttle constantly. The one chance I had to push it in second gear was - exciting - the car pulled very hard but was skating on the highway - and this was a 100-shot - but it felt stronger.

I'm going to have to go to a track for real tuning - the car really isn't safe on the highway and a full-throttle 150-shot run would not work out well. When I raise the jets to the next step - 225WHP shot - I'm going to be on slicks at a track.

I did find a bunch of hose clamps for 1/4" O.D. - 3/16" I.D. hose and these are ordered, so maybe I can build the nitrous nylon hoses next week. I guess this is progress.

 

good luck

 

Thanks - I could use some....

 

The recommended NX jetting for E85 150-shot is 26N-17F. This produces a very high (and dangerous) lambda well over 1.10. After all the hose work, I decided to make some more tests. I changed the fuel jets to .018, with the .026 nitrous jets, and the lambda under WOT went to about 1.04. This is pulling WOT through second gear. Man, that's fun. I then changed to nitrous jets to .024 and ran the car again - lambda dropped a little more, so I put in .021 jets. This dropped the lambda to ~.94, which is better. Next will be larger fuel jets, I think - bump to .019 sounds good.

Remember it's the fuel burning that makes the power - the nitrous is there to help it burn. This is still weird - using 21N-18F jets and it's still too lean. ??? I think opening up the nitrous hoses made it worse, but when I install 5mm hoses for nitrous, the volume that can be delivered will jump up again. I can see right now using the same jet for nitrous and E85 for a good lambda of 8.0 for E85.

Another good thing is that spraying with a 150-shot WOT (lambda of +1.10) ( A/F = 15:1) thru 2nd gear didn't melt anything and the engine acted like it didn't notice. That's gotta be the E85 at work - it's supposed to be great with nitrous and I think it is. And I'm using pump E85 to play with - $17/gallon is too much for playing around. I've already used another 10 gallons of pump E85 and I just put in my last can tonight - and it's down about three gallons already.

"never a dull moment"

 

what is the target a/f for e85 and nitrous