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Old 03-01-2009 | 07:59 AM
  #2801  
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From: Downingtown, PA
Heh Kun_man - Where would I find the breather tubes?

Originally Posted by Kuhn_man
what you could try to do is see if any of the breather tubes that would go into your gas take to provide air so that way there not to much of a problem with vaccume when your car is on...see if any of those are pluged and it also could be something in your fuel pump as well...maby a bearing goin bad or something
Old 03-01-2009 | 10:12 AM
  #2802  
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From: Thomasville, GA
New Powersteering Noise

Just had a Cardone powersteering put on, along with a new pressure hose.

Theirs a low howl/groan coming from the new ps pump. I hear it moreso inside the car.

I asked the mechanic, he said it's a little bit of air, and it will go away eventually.

I was wondering how long, because Ive driven over 100 miles, and it's still there. Ive even popped the top of the reserve, and did a few full turn lock to lock to see if it would bleed, and it's still there.

Any ideas?
Old 03-01-2009 | 11:44 AM
  #2803  
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Originally Posted by wcs1885
How do I do that? I'm not real car savvy. I only know how to change my oil & check some basic stuff under the hood. So what would I need to do to check on the speakers?
take off the door panels, there are clips on the bottem of the door that just pop off, all you really need is a philips screwdriver and something to pry with...then it just kinda wiggles off for the most part...its really strait forward...once the panel is off there should be 4 screws that hold the speaker on unscrew them and it should almost fall out from there you can check the wiring out at the speaker point if that doesnt seem to be the problem then it might be behind the dash...and if so let me know and i can tell you how to take that apart as well ok...good luck, hope it works out
Old 03-01-2009 | 11:53 AM
  #2804  
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Originally Posted by Jeffp
Heh Kun_man - Where would I find the breather tubes?
well from what ive seen on other cars because i havent look on my car yet, is that it should be somewhere on near the top of the gas tank all it really is is just a small tube that you see leading to nowhere thats connected near the top of the tank or where the hose goes to when you fill your tank up
Old 03-02-2009 | 11:22 AM
  #2805  
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Sunroof glass molding

Hello.

I have a '97 GLE. The plastic molding that goes around the top of the glass sunroof has become brittle and cracked in a couple of places. My first indication was that it sounded like a window was cracked open slightly while driving. Apparently the molding also serves to hold the rubber seal in place. The sunroof operates just fine and the rubber seal does not appear to be damaged. It's just that plastic molding that is the problem.

From what I can tell the molding is not sold separately from the glass....but I don't want to spend $600+ labor just to fix that molding.

Has anyone else encountered this problem and/or have a suggestion?

TIA!
Old 03-02-2009 | 12:27 PM
  #2806  
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Originally Posted by jmr1138
Hello.

I have a '97 GLE. The plastic molding that goes around the top of the glass sunroof has become brittle and cracked in a couple of places. My first indication was that it sounded like a window was cracked open slightly while driving. Apparently the molding also serves to hold the rubber seal in place. The sunroof operates just fine and the rubber seal does not appear to be damaged. It's just that plastic molding that is the problem.

From what I can tell the molding is not sold separately from the glass....but I don't want to spend $600+ labor just to fix that molding.

Has anyone else encountered this problem and/or have a suggestion?

TIA!

My wife drives a '95.A problem with hers was that the sunroof cables broke and left a gap to where air was getting in.The cheapest fix is to find a used one in a junkyard and replace it all in one piece.It seems like a pain but once you remove the Dome lights,A,B&C pillars,Sun visors then the headliner just falls down and the roof itself is held up by screws and its got a few drainage hoses attached.two person job as well.
Old 03-02-2009 | 07:37 PM
  #2807  
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Hi I know this is probably a silly question but, I want to make my car sound louder, not extremely loud, I just want that noticeable rumble that doesn't wake every neighbor in the morning.

I know that straight pipes makes the car louder, but I wanted to know if just a muffler alone can do the same job. Like everything is stock except for the muffler and maybe the exhaust tip but I know that the tip doesn't affect sound that such.
Old 03-02-2009 | 07:53 PM
  #2808  
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Originally Posted by Leo_Koneval
Hi I know this is probably a silly question but, I want to make my car sound louder, not extremely loud, I just want that noticeable rumble that doesn't wake every neighbor in the morning.

I know that straight pipes makes the car louder, but I wanted to know if just a muffler alone can do the same job. Like everything is stock except for the muffler and maybe the exhaust tip but I know that the tip doesn't affect sound that such.
Yes, you can make it louder by changing the muffler.

Have you looked through the exhaust sound clips sticky or youtube?
Old 03-03-2009 | 02:26 PM
  #2809  
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Originally Posted by ChiknNutz
Hi all just found this site and this is my first post. I just picked up a 1995 Maxima with 220k on the clock, so have some stuff to do. This will strictly be a daily driver, but I do tend to go OTT on stuff, so what the heck. One thing I need to do is replace the struts...looking at either the KYB GR-2 or Tokico HP. I've found them online at various places for about $300 for the set. Are there any of these "group buys" going on for either of these? These seem to be the most popular low-end options from what I can tell (and I don't want OEM, but a bit better). Thanks much.
Just had monroe sensatrac struts and moog strut bearings put on my 95 max, 112k miles. I dont know much about the comparisons, seems they are ok, and high ($99 a pop)
Old 03-03-2009 | 02:47 PM
  #2810  
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Hey guys -
I got the car towed to a shop, but they've been having trouble finding the problem as well. They now have spark, but they said the car is dumping fuel into the cylinders like it's WOT. He suspects there might be a shorted injector, but has to pull some data off the engine to check the parameters. When he pulled the plugs he said they were just soaked with fuel. He was at a loss to why it's not running now, but at least he told me that he's going to cut me a break on the rates since he's having such a hard time with it - which I was relieved to hear. I thought I would ping back here to see if anyone might have some idea why it's not firing at the right time (the CPS code is now cleared) or dumping too much fuel.

Originally Posted by OzarkSE
I had the guy run my obdII reader on it and it pulled a code p0335, iirc, cps problem - so you're right... but it looks like there's no charge getting to the terminal (per factory manual test) when ignition is 'on'. I suspect he whacked the harness when taking the crankshaft bolt off when changing the harmonic balancer... but it looks like a real *$)(% to fix it.
Old 03-03-2009 | 05:45 PM
  #2811  
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intake question

first and foremost i have heard nothing but good things about this forum and its members and i cant wait to get involved with this community. with that being said i recently bought a 1995 maxima from a family member put only 10,000 miles a year. long story short took great care of it. i am 29 and just getting into the tuner scene so i am limited on my knowledge so please dont flame me for my stupid questions. i am a bodybuilder and we go to town on noobs and trolls, on my forum lol. like this long post lol. i just put a cone air filter on my car with a maf adapter. the stock airbox has a tempeture sensor on it. there was a rubber plug on the airfilter tube and i set the sensor in that. its not snug but not loose. do i even need this sensor or can i can it all together

Last edited by ironwork; 03-03-2009 at 05:51 PM.
Old 03-03-2009 | 05:45 PM
  #2812  
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Hey im not really to sure if anybody did this in there max but i literally wanna change every light bulb in my max to a nice royal blue color.. Only problem is that i dnt and cant find the bulb size for anything such as: door, map, speed odmeter, window switches, bumper lights, license plate, and anything else that i cant remember the headlights and fog i already kno i need HID's.. Just everything in between i need the help with. Thanks alot

Old 03-03-2009 | 05:57 PM
  #2813  
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P0136

Hi,

I've searched the forums and found some useful on code P0136 for my Maxima 97' GLE. I just wanted to know if anyone has a rundown on changing it? tips? exact location? tools? exact oxygen sensor need? I've been told it's not hard to do at all unless the part is rusted on...let me know.
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:14 PM
  #2814  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
first and foremost i have heard nothing but good things about this forum and its members and i cant wait to get involved with this community. with that being said i recently bought a 1995 maxima from a family member put only 10,000 miles a year. long story short took great care of it. i am 29 and just getting into the tuner scene so i am limited on my knowledge so please dont flame me for my stupid questions. i am a bodybuilder and we go to town on noobs and trolls, on my forum lol. like this long post lol. i just put a cone air filter on my car with a maf adapter. the stock airbox has a tempeture sensor on it. there was a rubber plug on the airfilter tube and i set the sensor in that. its not snug but not loose. do i even need this sensor or can i can it all together
bump
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:26 PM
  #2815  
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Front Abs Sensors

I just bought a 98 SE auto for my son. It has an intermittent abs light. We changed both axles over the weekend (2 torn outer boots). While we were in there, I noticed someone had spliced in a new sensor. It may not be the problem, but I will be changing it anyway. However--when I compared it to the other side (drivers side), I noticed it is different. On the drivers side there is a bolt holding the sensor to the "knuckle", or hub. The FSM clearly shows a bolt holding the sensor in place. On the passenger side there is no bolt, nor a threaded hole where a bolt would attach. There is a "nub" for the hole on the sensor bracket to rest, however. My question(s) is--is it likely the knuckle has been replaced, and someone machined a hole in the knuckle for the sensor? (I could/should check my other son's non-abs '96) Should I worry about it?---and just put the new sensor in (with a little RTV) and forget about it? Or should I drill and tap a hole, and add a bolt like the drivers side?? Thanks.
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:41 PM
  #2816  
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Map lamp size

---------------- Listening to: VA - Beginning Of The End-When She Made Me Promise via FoxyTunes

I'm not for sure what the size is?
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:43 PM
  #2817  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
bump
Did you seriously just bump after a half hour? This is a forum, not a chat room. Have some damn patience. Seriously, there have only been 2 other posts since your question.




In any case if you don't use the IAT, you'll get a code. Whether or not you care about that, that's up to you. Either leave it dangling, find a way to fit it in the proper place, or get rid of it, it's all up to you.
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:52 PM
  #2818  
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Originally Posted by 90s*kid
---------------- Listening to: VA - Beginning Of The End-When She Made Me Promise via FoxyTunes

I'm not for sure what the size is?
Get rid of the 'listening to' crap. No one cares.

http://forums.maxima.org/4th-generat...ight-bulb.html
http://forums.maxima.org/4th-generat...98-maxima.html
Old 03-03-2009 | 06:55 PM
  #2819  
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Originally Posted by 90s*kid
Hi,

I've searched the forums and found some useful on code P0136 for my Maxima 97' GLE. I just wanted to know if anyone has a rundown on changing it? tips? exact location? tools? exact oxygen sensor need? I've been told it's not hard to do at all unless the part is rusted on...let me know.
Search around, you'll find a few good threads on O2 sensor replacement.

In any case, it's just the rear one by the converter. O2 sensor socket or a wrench, all you need.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:00 PM
  #2820  
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Originally Posted by Jaeinda97
Hey im not really to sure if anybody did this in there max but i literally wanna change every light bulb in my max to a nice royal blue color.. Only problem is that i dnt and cant find the bulb size for anything such as: door, map, speed odmeter, window switches, bumper lights, license plate, and anything else that i cant remember the headlights and fog i already kno i need HID's.. Just everything in between i need the help with. Thanks alot
Have you searched the forum or looked through the stickies? Last I looked, there was a list of all the bulb sizes around here...
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:06 PM
  #2821  
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Anyone looking for what size bulbs you need for your car take a look here:

http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProd...de/default.htm

Hope that helps some of you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Example of a 1997 max:

http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProd...RG-Results.htm
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:10 PM
  #2822  
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Originally Posted by pmohr
Did you seriously just bump after a half hour? This is a forum, not a chat room. Have some damn patience. Seriously, there have only been 2 other posts since your question.




In any case if you don't use the IAT, you'll get a code. Whether or not you care about that, that's up to you. Either leave it dangling, find a way to fit it in the proper place, or get rid of it, it's all up to you.
lol ahhhhh o.k as i said i have it sitting in the rubber insert on the new air filter tube from my understanding that is the correct place. what i wanted to know is if its nessesary to have it on at all . as far as engine performance will my car idle diffrent etc etc. my CE light is on now amyway ill reset when i need a inspection that im not worried about i have friends. why wouldnt you included the CORRECT PLACE in your post your more worried about my bump. my apologies i am on a **** load off bodybuilding forums sorry if thats a no no around here guy. thanks for you help.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:12 PM
  #2823  
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Resetting it when you do inspection wouldn't help you pass. Fix your problem then go to inspection.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:21 PM
  #2824  
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Originally Posted by petro2342
Resetting it when you do inspection wouldn't help you pass. Fix your problem then go to inspection.
thanks for the reply bro. do i really have a problem though from my understanding its personal prefrence if it dosent effect the car. and i set it in the new air filter. im just wondering if it has to be inside the tube or is it fine where it is. i just got a oill change and plugs car runns stong it will pass inspection no problem. my mechanic just checked it out. car is fine

Last edited by ironwork; 03-03-2009 at 07:27 PM.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:26 PM
  #2825  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
lol ahhhhh o.k as i said i have it sitting in the rubber insert on the new air filter tube from my understanding that is the correct place. what i wanted to know is if its nessesary to have it on at all . as far as engine performance will my car idle diffrent etc etc. my CE light is on now amyway ill reset when i need a inspection that im not worried about i have friends. why wouldnt you included the CORRECT PLACE in your post your more worried about my bump. my apologies i am on a **** load off bodybuilding forums sorry if thats a no no around here guy. thanks for you help.
Well the correct place is obviously in the intake plumbing.

According to the FSM, the IAT isn't used for any sort of engine control, but some members have noticed that it may have an effect on how the engine runs.

Have you checked the codes? As has been said, resetting the codes won't help at all if your testing station uses OBD-II checking.

Again, you could let it dangle next to the filter, or find a way to put it in where it should be.

Long story short, if you got an intake, you got the wrong one. The rubber insert is for the 97-99 style IAT, not the 95-96.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:28 PM
  #2826  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
thanks for the reply bro. do i really have a problem though from my understanding its personal prefrence if it dosent effect the car. and i set it in the new air filter. im just wondering if it has to be inside the tube or is it fine where it is.
Yea I too had a cone air filter installed and left the IAT dangling, but never pulled a code. So make sure you pull the code and let us know what it means.

You can find this by going down under the dash where your pedals are. On the right side you have to remove the kick panel or w/e its called and find your ecu (electronic control unit) there. There will be a dial which a flat screw driver will help you pull the code. Turn it all the way to the right gently and wait 1 or so second. Then turn it left. Your CEL (if its on) will flash xx long xx short fast flashes. Thats how you pull the code.

If you are confused take a look at this link:

http://vbxmaxima.8m.com/ecu.html
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:33 PM
  #2827  
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Originally Posted by valveguy
I just bought a 98 SE auto for my son. It has an intermittent abs light. We changed both axles over the weekend (2 torn outer boots). While we were in there, I noticed someone had spliced in a new sensor. It may not be the problem, but I will be changing it anyway. However--when I compared it to the other side (drivers side), I noticed it is different. On the drivers side there is a bolt holding the sensor to the "knuckle", or hub. The FSM clearly shows a bolt holding the sensor in place. On the passenger side there is no bolt, nor a threaded hole where a bolt would attach. There is a "nub" for the hole on the sensor bracket to rest, however. My question(s) is--is it likely the knuckle has been replaced, and someone machined a hole in the knuckle for the sensor? (I could/should check my other son's non-abs '96) Should I worry about it?---and just put the new sensor in (with a little RTV) and forget about it? Or should I drill and tap a hole, and add a bolt like the drivers side?? Thanks.
If at all possible, a bolt securing the ABS sensor is the best way to go. Otherwise, it'll bounce around and set off the ABS light, as you've seen.

Courtesy shows the knuckle to be the same for both ABS and non ABS vehicles, so it could be an aftermarket part for non-ABS vehicles.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:39 PM
  #2828  
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Originally Posted by petro2342
Yea I too had a cone air filter installed and left the IAT dangling, but never pulled a code. So make sure you pull the code and let us know what it means.

You can find this by going down under the dash where your pedals are. On the right side you have to remove the kick panel or w/e its called and find your ecu (electronic control unit) there. There will be a dial which a flat screw driver will help you pull the code. Turn it all the way to the right gently and wait 1 or so second. Then turn it left. Your CEL (if its on) will flash xx long xx short fast flashes. Thats how you pull the code.

If you are confused take a look at this link:

http://vbxmaxima.8m.com/ecu.html
yeah i know how to pull the codes i appreciate your help. i have it sitting on the intake tube now idles fine i was just wondering if it was a big deal . thanks for your time.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:44 PM
  #2829  
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Originally Posted by pmohr
Well the correct place is obviously in the intake plumbing.

According to the FSM, the IAT isn't used for any sort of engine control, but some members have noticed that it may have an effect on how the engine runs.

Have you checked the codes? As has been said, resetting the codes won't help at all if your testing station uses OBD-II checking.

Again, you could let it dangle next to the filter, or find a way to put it in where it should be.

Long story short, if you got an intake, you got the wrong one. The rubber insert is for the 97-99 style IAT, not the 95-96.
cant see how that is possible getting a wrong intake it was special orderd from my cousin who works at his step dads auto part store. but ill take that into consideration. like i said theres a rubber plug where i assumed it went thats where i put it. so im fine. im not really worried about the CE codes as long as it runs good and it is. then i am o.k it has to be better then leaveing it dangling. thanks for you time as been said i have connections inpections will never be a problem. especially since its a 95. just curios how can you pinpoint i have orderd the wrong intake if i didnt tell you what brand or style i got. theres a million out there. i also reasearched this topic and some people choose to leave it dangling with no problems i thought that this was a maxima forum that i might get better insight ie results. maybe someone who actually did this before . and went through the same issues by the way its a sai so now you dont have to guess.

Last edited by ironwork; 03-03-2009 at 08:02 PM.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:52 PM
  #2830  
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How are the turbo guys running there downpipe and where should I tap in to get oil feed for a turbo? pics would be great.I have been reading and reading on here ...TONS of info I have learned alot. Thanks
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:53 PM
  #2831  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
cant see how that is possible getting a wrong intake it was special orderd from my cousin who works at his step dads auto part store. but ill take that into consideration. like i said theres a rubber plug where i assumed it went thats where i put it. so im fine. im not really worried about the CE codes as long as it runs good and it is. then i am o.k it has to be better then leaveing it dangling. thanks for you time
Just because it was special ordered doesn't mean it can't be the wrong one.

If it's got a round rubber bung for the IAT, then it's the wrong one. It should have a 2 bolt hole bung as the stock IAT is.
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:57 PM
  #2832  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
cant see how that is possible getting a wrong intake it was special orderd from my cousin who works at his step dads auto part store. but ill take that into consideration. like i said theres a rubber plug where i assumed it went thats where i put it. so im fine. im not really worried about the CE codes as long as it runs good and it is. then i am o.k it has to be better then leaveing it dangling. thanks for you time as been said i have connections inpections will never be a problem. especially since its a 95.
I don't know how it is in NY, but down here if a inspector see's a CEL / SES you fail right away. I dunno if I misread anything or not, but what was the code you pulled?
Old 03-03-2009 | 07:59 PM
  #2833  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
cant see how that is possible getting a wrong intake it was special orderd from my cousin who works at his step dads auto part store. but ill take that into consideration. like i said theres a rubber plug where i assumed it went thats where i put it. so im fine. im not really worried about the CE codes as long as it runs good and it is. then i am o.k it has to be better then leaveing it dangling. thanks for you time as been said i have connections inpections will never be a problem. especially since its a 95. just curios how can you pinpoint i have orderd the wrong intake if i didnt tell you what brand or style i got. theres a million out there. i also reasearched this topic and some people choose to leave it dangling with no problems i thought that this was a maxima forum that i might get better inight ie results.
Again, round rubber plug == 97-99 style IAT, two bolt hole bung == 95/96 style IAT.
Old 03-03-2009 | 08:01 PM
  #2834  
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Originally Posted by timbrooks77
How are the turbo guys running there downpipe and where should I tap in to get oil feed for a turbo? pics would be great.I have been reading and reading on here ...TONS of info I have learned alot. Thanks
You can T off of the OPSU, that's what most do.

Have you looked through the setups in the FI section? There are a lot of pics of up/down pipes in there.

The downpipe really depends if you do a forward or reverse Y.
Old 03-03-2009 | 08:05 PM
  #2835  
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Originally Posted by ironwork
cant see how that is possible getting a wrong intake it was special orderd from my cousin who works at his step dads auto part store. but ill take that into consideration. like i said theres a rubber plug where i assumed it went thats where i put it. so im fine. im not really worried about the CE codes as long as it runs good and it is. then i am o.k it has to be better then leaveing it dangling. thanks for you time as been said i have connections inpections will never be a problem. especially since its a 95. just curios how can you pinpoint i have orderd the wrong intake if i didnt tell you what brand or style i got. theres a million out there. i also reasearched this topic and some people choose to leave it dangling with no problems i thought that this was a maxima forum that i might get better insight ie results. maybe someone who actually did this before . and went through the same issues by the way its a sai so now you dont have to guess.
SAI? Do you mean SRI? That says nothing about brand or model, but it doesn't matter.

Many people just have the IAT dangling (or have had the same problem with having the wrong intake), have you searched around to find out anything about this? As I've said, it may or may not have a noticeable effect. For you apparently it doesn't.

And post replies, don't just keep editing your post, makes it much harder to track and reply.
Old 03-03-2009 | 08:06 PM
  #2836  
ironwork's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by petro2342
I don't know how it is in NY, but down here if a inspector see's a CEL / SES you fail right away. I dunno if I misread anything or not, but what was the code you pulled?
i didnt pull anything yet bud ill do it tommorow. i have connections with inpections theres way around CEL. it can be done . to my knowledge 1995 and older have more leineant inspections my mechaninc who looked at it a couple days ago said it will pass without a doubt
Old 03-03-2009 | 08:09 PM
  #2837  
petro2342's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 460
From: Connecticut / Western Mass
Originally Posted by ironwork
i didnt pull anything yet bud ill do it tommorow. i have connections with inpections theres way around cel. it can be done . to my knowledge 1995 and older have more leineant inspections my mechaninc who looked at it a couple days ago said it will pass without a doubt
Again, why not just solve your CEL issue instead of bypassing. It could be more serious than you think. See, when I pull codes and I get something like 0102 I would erase it cause I worked on the car and it never came up before. But if its the first time fix it!! Car will thank you.
Old 03-03-2009 | 08:11 PM
  #2838  
ironwork's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by pmohr
SAI? Do you mean SRI? That says nothing about brand or model, but it doesn't matter.

Many people just have the IAT dangling (or have had the same problem with having the wrong intake), have you searched around to find out anything about this? As I've said, it may or may not have a noticeable effect. For you apparently it doesn't.

And post replies, don't just keep editing your post, makes it much harder to track and reply.
i meant sri i actually had it written out first then changed it lol. anyway it idles fine it ran fine i guess im o.k if need be ill take the whole rubber peice out and fit the sensor inside if it becomes a problem. again thanks for your time.
Old 03-04-2009 | 12:37 PM
  #2839  
Jaeinda97's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
From: NEW YORK CITY
Originally Posted by petro2342
Anyone looking for what size bulbs you need for your car take a look here:

http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProd...de/default.htm

Hope that helps some of you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Example of a 1997 max:

http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProd...RG-Results.htm

Thanks alot for the site this really helped me out for the bulb sizes.. Petro2342 and to pmohr im going to search more in the forum about this idea and thanks for ur reply to me also..
Old 03-04-2009 | 01:21 PM
  #2840  
Kuhn_man's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 475
From: Carol Stream, Il
Originally Posted by ironwork
yeah i know how to pull the codes i appreciate your help. i have it sitting on the intake tube now idles fine i was just wondering if it was a big deal . thanks for your time.

your car will run fine without it


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