Dyno it, that's be great......

 

yes that would definetly be helpful.

 

I found out the dyno in Merriam, KS is only like $55 for two runs...

I should have it to Steve by the middle of January, hope that's not to late lemme know if that is to late, and I will make it a higher priority...

 

It won't be too late, hopefully that's when things will be the thickest and getting down to business with nissan

 

With my 03 6spd limited slip, at about 6k mileage.. with injen intake, ur pulley, and greddy catback..

My last best was like 212 hp and like 216 lbs of torque.

Kinda sad. But, even if i take into effect the filter being possibly a little more dirty than normal.. with those mods I should have more power.

No doubt, the car is strong and I love it.. But with those mods and a true 255 hp.. the car should be more like.. 230ish at the wheels .. give or take a little bit..

 

Gonna Dyno my ridez on Monday Morning! Gonna see what kind of powers have been lost to the darkside! Hopefully after all this mess I can start with the real power! Still can't believe they've been shieting on us for this long! 255hpz?? I thought that article in SCC was funny when they raced the Max vs. the Alt. Same 1320 times and 0-60 times! Funny shiet! Well I'll e-mail when I finish!

 

Guys, what are the exact problems you are having? From what I gather:

1. You have less than 255HP? How much?
2. Less than advertised gas mileage? What are you averaging? Could it be because of aggressive driving?
3. Someone said something about quality. What kind of issues are there?
4. I read in a sig that 3rd gear grinds. Is that common?

I sell Nissans, and I can ask the service advisor if he has heard of these things and what he recommends. I'd be happy to help see if these are common problems.

 

We appreciate your offer to help, but everyone is advised NOT TO TALK TO HIM, WE HAVE THE GO TO TALK TO AN AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEER. TALKING TO FIREINTHEWHOLE WILL NOT HELP OUR CASE WHAT SO EVER. Thanks for your concern though Fire.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FireintheWhole
[B]Guys, what are the exact problems you are having? From what I gather:

1. You have less than 255HP? How much?
2. Less than advertised gas mileage? What are you averaging? Could it be because of aggressive driving?
3. Someone said something about quality. What kind of issues are there?
4. I read in a sig that 3rd gear grinds. Is that common?

I sell Nissans, and I can ask the service advisor if he has heard of these things and what he recommends. I'd be happy to help see if these are common problems.
i have an issue with the paint.how many people have bad chipping on hood and fenders?when i traded my 98 se in i had less chips after 53000 miles then i did on my 02 gle in 6000and now that i have 25000 there are even more!i drive the car the same way and on the same highways as the 98 did!

 

Hey VQMAN, I like you. You have a good sense of humor. I don't read this thread often, for obvious reason, but yeah, I just read through it and it seems that most of our dialogue was a miscommunication. Heh. Ironic isn't it? Human language is so damned inefficient.

Regardless, I would like to make one comment about a reply you made to one of my arguments. I quoted it below so you would know which reply I'm referring to.To a certain extent, your argument is sound. However, you must remember that not everyone is a car enthusiast and not everyone will care as much as we do. The .org is only a FRACTION of the percentage of Maximas sold in the US every year! All of us here know that about 80% of the time we pull up next to a Maxima on the street, that there's a mature person driving. Heh. I have nothing against mature people but I believe that when one reaches a certain age, they tend to concern themselves less with the "wow" and "cool" but are more concerned with financial stability and getting a good deal. If Nissan gave great deals on cars... the majority will not give a poopypie whether the Maxima is overrated by 15hp. A few will be... we will be... but who are we? A bunch of flies trying to force a huge cow to squeeze out a nice juicy turd just for us. It isn't that easy. (Excuse the vulgar illustration, but you do get my point?)

In summary, I believe that getting publicity for this case will not hurt Maxima sales as bad as many of you are thinking! Do not underestimate the enemy... you have to have leverage and quite frankly, threatening to tell mommy is insufficient. But who knows...

*shrug*

BTW, VQMAN don't leave the .org over stupid, retarded $hit!

 

Here's a point that I don't think has been raised in this thread
before... but you can be sure it would be raised in a trial, by
Nissan's lawyers and expert witnesses. Sorry for the length of
this posting but I have tried to give a complete explanation
that is based on sound engineering principles.

A dynojet doesn't really measure horsepower. Rather, it
measures how quickly the car's drive wheels can accelerate a heavy
drum of known inertia, and it infers the car's power output from
how quickly the drum's speed changes. So, it's not measuring
power at all; really it is measuring acceleration, and based on
the known rotary inertia of its drum, it does some math and
converts the acceleration to hp and torque.

There are problems relating this measurement to an engine's
crankshaft horsepower. For one, there are
dissipative losses (i.e. heat created) in the transmission and
drivetrain, and there are parasitic losses from the engine's
auxiliary drives (water pump, alternator, power steering pump,
a/c compressor if you forget to turn it off). So you never
expect to see the output on any chassis dyno equal the
crankshaft output of an engine on a test stand.

But there is another problem that is more subtle and is inherent
to the dynamic method used by the dynojet. That is, there are
other inertias that are also being accelerated, which are not
taken into account in the dynojet's measurement - specifically,
the engine, flywheel and accessory drives; the clutch or torque
converter; the transmission's gears; the transaxle (or
driveshaft and differential on a RWD car); the brake disks; and,
very significantly, the wheels and tires in contact with the
dynojet's drum. These components affect the accuracy of the
dynojet's measurement exactly in the proportion of their rotary
inertia to the rotary inertia of the dynojet's drum. The larger
the inertia of the drum of the dynojet, the lower will be the
error - but the error cannot be completely removed. If you knew
enough about a car's drivetrain, you could compensate for the
error, but that cannot be done for the $60 measurement made at a
weekend dyno meet. Note that these effects are not "losses." In
terms of the car's acceleration on the dynojet, they are like
adding a lump of weight in the trunk - i.e. they will slow down
the car's acceleration, but they do not affect the engine's
power output at a steady speed.

Essentially what is happening is that the dynojet machine measures
how fast the car accelerates its drum, and from that infers how much
power the car is delivering to the drum. The components I mentioned
have to be accelerated too, but their inertia adds an unpredicatble
amount to the inertia of the dynojet's drum, so that its calibration
is no longer accurate.

You have to remember that a dynojet is intended to be used as an
aid to tuning a given engine in a given car, and it's not really
designed to compare among different cars. If you are comparing
runs with identical cars then a dynojet can help you tune your
engine. As long as the drivetrain inertia is the same before and
after an engine tuning mod, the dynojet results will tell you
whether you have changed your engine's output. But, for
instance, putting on lighter alloy wheels or a lighter flywheel
on the engine will increase the dynojet rating - do you think
you have actually changed the engine's output? You have reduced
the inertia of the drivetrain, so the engine can accelerate the
dynojet's drum faster, resulting in a higher inferred
horsepower. You have decreased the car's mass and rotating
inertia, so the car will actually accelerate faster on the road
too. But you have not changed the engine's power output!

When a car manufacturer tests an engine for the claimed
horsepower rating, they use an engine test stand that makes a
steady-state (non-accelerated) measurement. Since the
measurement is non-accelerated, the amount of inertia attached
to the engine has no effect on its apparent output. On a test
stand, the engine's torque output is measured (by measuring the
force on a reaction arm of known length or by using a torque
cell that directly measures torque) and its speed is measured by
a tachometer. Then the horsepower is calculated by the well-
known formula (hp) = (rpm)*(ft-lb torque)/5252. (Actually even
the Detroit automakers now perform the measurement using SI
units, where (kW power) = (rpm)*(N-m torque)/9549 but we don't
need to go there.) The measurement is made at basically constant
speed or steady-state - none of the engine's power is going into
accelerating any masses or rotational inertia.

This means that the power measured by the dynojet method will
always be lower than the power measured on an engine test stand,
for reasons that are *in addition to* the losses due to friction
in the transmission and power lost to the alternator, a/c
compressor, etc. You cannot directly compare a dynamic
measurement with a steady-state measurement. But you can bet
that Nissan's 255 hp claim is crankshaft power based on a
steady-state, test stand measurement (and, yes, they probably
disconnected the alternator and power steering pump and
definitely didn't have the a/c compressor running )

To put specific numbers on it, the consensus on the thread seems
to be that a dynojet measurement on the order of 12%~15% less
than the claimed power would be plausible, but 18+% less is not.
However, part of that 6% deficit could be due to, for example,
the large, heavy wheels that come on stock Maximas. Has anybody
dynoed a Max with lightweight mags? Also, the Maxima engine
obviously comes stock with a very heavy flywheel - the throttle
response is so slow! How much "improvement" on the dyno is typically seen by replacing this with a lightweight flywheel? Based on reports
in the performance threads on this forum, I think you could easily
make up the 6% (15.3 hp) "deficit" from these effects.

A lighter flywheel or light alloy wheels on your car won't
change the actual engine output, but they will change the number
reported on a dynojet (and the actual acceleration of the car on
the road). One post in another thread estimates the apparent
power increase from a lighter flywheel as 6 hp for a 4th gen Max
(venompwr2 post of 7-29-2002 on the 4th gen forum in the thread
"horsepower gains" -

This alone could account for almost 1/2 of the apparent
discrepancy. Estimate a similar or slightly higher effect due to
the heavy stock wheels, and pretty much all of the problem
disappears.

Now, certainly this explanation doesn't address why the Maxima
and the Altima have basically identical dynojet results. The
likely explanation there is what people have mentioned multiple
times - the Altima's power rating was purposely lowballed, for
marketing reasons. (The 240 claimed number handily beats the
Accord and Camry 6's, the car doesn't compete with Acuras and
Lexuses, and leaves some room to put the Max at 255.) But this
doesn't give a basis to sue Nissan! Even if both engines do make
the same power on the test stand, as long as it is at least 255
hp, and Nissan can prove it, the suit would be laughed out of
court.

Unfortunately, I don't know whether there are any chassis dynos
readily available that will make a steady-state measurement -
the test would take longer, and the machine would be much larger
and more expensive. But that is what you would need to have
evidence that would be convincing in the presence of a hostile
expert witness.

So, to summarize, part of the problem here may be that the
2k2/2k3 Maxima really isn't a sports car. It has heavy
components, especially the wheels and flywheel, compared with
the high-performance cars that are usually measured on dynojets.
Therefore for the Maxima the discrepancy between the steady-
state crank hp and the dynojet measurement is expected to be
considerably higher than usual. This doesn't (necessarily) mean
that the Maxima is putting out less than its advertised power;
it means you just can't tell from a dynojet-type measurement.
(The dynojet is highly repeatable, but it is not highly
accurate.) Sorry if this rains on anybody's parade, but if a
lawsuit is really being contemplated, we will have to anticipate
addressing this argument. If people *can* get the dynojet
measurement up to around 210 hp (i.e. power deficit down to the
12% range) by fitting lighter wheels and flywheels (mods that
cannot affect the power of the engine but make the Maxima's
drivetrain closer to that of a typical high-performance car)
then I'd guess that this is the explanation.

BTW I have to say that my butt can't tell whether my 2k3 6sp has
240 or 255 hp but it is the fastest car I've ever owned. It's
not perfect but I like it!

 

This is a post just to ask if anyone knows if nissan so far is doing anything about this 15HP deal. Also, could this be reported to the bad bussiness bureau. I am seriously dissapointed. I have been also making posts that not only does nissan fall short with the HP issue, but they fall short with the MPG too. Guys, Girls, I think we all need to do more. I will try to get a Dyno on my maxima. But also, i can see if my friends can get theirs dynoed also. Can anyone tell me if we are close to a solution with this? Thanks.

 

wow, longest post i've ever seen, i will read it on xmas or one of these upcoming days when i have time.....then ill give you feedback, an automotive engineer has just been ok'd, so the lawyer will be talking to one....thanks for your patients

 

wow nice long write up. I started last night, just finished this morning. Im going to throw 15' inch rims on my car and dyno it. If it yield's more power then so be-it, i'll get some nice 15's and keep em clean ! hahah

seriously, , any good 15's on sale?

ok ok, seriously, i'll dyno with 4th gen maxima wheels, and lets get some GXE dyno sheets, i'd like to see em also, they must be faster than SE and GLE since theyre lighter.

 

oh no! what are we gonna do?

ok, your statements sound good, but only if you were talking to a naive 6th grade girl.

If the dynojet only measures acceleration...would a Honda s2000 have higher torque and hp at the wheels than the Maxima? It IS faster, and it accelerates quicker. That kinda puts a damper in your 'great' points.

What about a when you Dyno a Ford F-350 with a Turbo Diesel...I bet it would accurately dipict it as having WAY more power at the wheels than our Maxima...and it is WAY slower...but the dyno would show 350lbft of torque at the wheels, or whatever those things have...

I should take my wifes 2k1 Pathfinder in, it would show similar results as the Max and Altima...maybe a little more torque...but it too is WAY slower....

Take a Cadillac Escalade to a dnyojet....are you getting me here?
The dynojet doesn't measure acceleration...it measures power. End of story.

ACCELERATION? Do you really think people with half a brain will believe your analysis?

Without thinking about what you are saying, it all sounds great, but when you stop and think about it, you sound like a Nissan Rep trying to sink our hopes...

Now I will definately be getting my Max dyno'd on Monday....

-vq



oh, and lcf, VERY good points about us being the crazy .org guys that care...my mom and dad own a 2k2 w/autotragic....have no desire to get their 15hp back....but I'll get mine back on my 2k3 6speed...

 

a dyno only measures acceleration...

ahahahaahaahahahah

hahahhahahahahaaaaaa

-vq

 

Only if it would accelerate the drum faster x rpm.
But the F-350 does have way more lowend power than a maxima would ever have . Also since diesel engines don't have spark plugs dynojets only give a mph vs hp curve anyway. That is unless they can get a rpm reading to get torque.
The pathfinder is 3800-4000lbs of course it is slower LOL. If the dynojet can't get an engine rpm reading it will measure the acceleration and give you a MPH vs HP curve.
It seems viable to me

 

Do a dynojet pull with no rpm signal and you will get a MPH vs HP chart. Without a rpm signal the dynojet can't calculate torque from the HP.

 

I am not really sure As you can see, i haven't a clue how it really works...


I guess he is saying 'acceleration of the wheels'...on the drums....not acceration of what the vehicle would do on a track...which is what I was thinking...

but with the gearing of the Pathfinder, wouldn't it still be putting out slower acceleration to the drums of a dyno? but then it still comes out with approximately the same ratings for hp and torque....

As you can tell, I really have no idea how the dyno really works, I just didn't like that guy raining on our "GIVE US OUR 15 HORSEPOWER" parade...I will have my first dyno experience tomorrow when I take it into MC Racing in Merriam, KS to help with the law suit.

-vq

 

Actually, a cleaner and easier experiment would be to make a dyno run in a different gear. You are not changing the engine in any way, but you are dramatically changing the effective inertia of the rotating parts of the engine. If the dynojet is truly measuring power, then this should have no effect. If the dynojet's measurement is affected by drivetrain inertia, as I maintain, then changing to a lower gear (i.e. use 3d instead of 4th) should reduce the apparent power because the effective inertia of the drivetrain as measured at the drum is increased. Changing to a higher gear should increase the apparent power.

BTW these arguments all will hold *only* with a manual tranny. If you get the torque converter of an automatic in there, no telling what might be going on.

If you change the tires, as you have proposed, you will not have a clean experiment unless you can preserve the exact rolling diameter. Otherwise, the effective gear ratio of the tire/drum interface will change. The inertia changes by the inverse square of the change in ratio. Even a 3% change in rolling diameter (which is considered acceptable for the speedo error when fitting a +1 tire/rim) will change the effective drivetrain inertia by about 6%. (But even that isn't so clean since the new tire/wheel combo will likely have different inertia from the originals.) The experiment I originally had in mind was to fit light alloys of the *same* size as the original rims - unfortunately that's a rather expensive experiment to conduct. But in responding to your post I realized that changing the gear is by far the easiest thing to do and should have a measurable effect.

And, to respond briefly to a point raised by another poster, I have absolutely no connection with Nissan other than as an owner. (and debtor, to NMAC So if anything I'd love to see a lawsuit succeed!)

 

I found this on the Club3g forum(i was bored).

"NOPI in atlanta was dyno'ing the cars there. On the TV show the guys were saying that the cars were dynoing much less than the factory claims were. Mostly for the maxima. they said that it was the worst offender for claimed horsepower."

Maybe this is something that should be looked into.

 

sorry for accusing you of being a Nissan Rep...

I really have no experience with dynos...and I am now not getting my car dyno'd tonight, I have to reschedule...last minute xmas shopping...

but...

You say that the Maxima is not a true performance car, and that is the reason for the high loss at the wheels...is because it has heavy wheels, and heavy drivetrain components...etc...true, look at the rear mini-van like suspension...not a performance car...just a fast grocery getter...I can buy that..

but are you saying the Altima is a true performance car, with light wheels, and light drivetrain components? that is the only way to explain how an engine with less power could show the same results on a dyno...right? according to what you were saying...inertia and all the physics junk aside...

..wouldn't this be the only way to get result in a lesser powered engine giving similar "at the wheels" performance of a higher powered engine??

my analysis; I don't think it has any better drivetrain components, or any lighter wheels...I think the engines put out the same amount of hp...245...255...240...whatever...they are the same...and I think Nissan lied to us or Altima buyers..

What is being compared is the Altima and the Maxima's 3.5L V6 ... I don't really understand what you are trying to say. If you could break it down for my 1st grade understanding of physics and dyno's I'd appreciate it..

thanks,
-vq

 

Listen, first I would Like to say F u c k the dynojet arument and mph vs HP. The point is Nissan lied to All of us. Get the damn dyno, send it it. We were all screwed by Nissan, now its out turn. Dont talk about f-150s, or Pahtfinders. Argue why the hell such a company like nissan lies about every damn car they have. For example. The q45 has more claimed HP than the LS430 from Lexus. But it accelerates slower. Mystery? Yeah, they probably lied about the HP there. So, we should all get all the evidence we need, and get those bastards over at nissan for false advertising. And when that is over.... either I want my money back, or hell I want my money back. What do you all think? Happy Holidays everyone.... F u c k you Nissan.

 

It's understandable to be ****ed off, i agree with what you said we can't compare different cars, it's like comparing apples to oranges, things are being done, experts are being contacted, so everyone whose getting stressed out this xmas season chill out and take a perkasette (spell?) and drink a beer, and you will be fine then.

 

LOL, I guess I was a little ****ed. But it all started seeing how my friend with a TLs gets like 31 mpg... has all of his 260 HP... and we get stuck with whatever we have and who knows how bad of an MPG. Thanks for the tip, ill chill... you have fun this Xmas season... hopefully we can get this solved.

 

Well i mean you should get close to those mpg, and even if he does have the h/p you still will beat him or give him a good race .....but we are all working on the h/p thing so you will walk the TL, and just think he even paid more

 

oxidizer....enough with the

we were just trying to understand how the process works, and no one can say for sure yet that Nissan screwed us out of 15 hp...but damn them if they did...

But the verdict is still out...that is why imjd and I were discussing how the dyno works. It DOES matter.

VERY unlikely you'll be getting your money back...VERY unlikely...be happy with a HP boost to get you to back to the claimed 255hp...if we can prove anything...



About the mpg concerns:

The mpg indication you see is not what you are getting at that given moment. It is an average from the last time you reset the mpg calculator.

I reset the mpg calculator while I was on the highway, drove conservatively for 10 miles and averaged 29.2 mpg.

you can reset it by toggling the "TRIP" button to the mpg, and then holding it down for a couple seconds until it starts flashing at you...do this on the highway, and drive like a normal person...I bet you yield better fuel economy than advertised.

Until I did this myself, I was only showing 23.8 mpg as the average...but that was the average of all city driving, and highway driving from the day I bought the thing...

GIVE ME MY 255 HP GROCERY GETTER!!!

 

A while back, I was reading a similar thread
about the Miata being underpowered. Basically,
some owners wanted to know why their dynos seemed
consistently low.

Oddly, some owners defended Mazda like they could
do no wrong (even though the Cobra had a similar problem).
They even resorted to personal attacks. I don't
understand why some can't support fellow owners in their
quest (even if they are ultimately wrong) because
their hard work may benefit everyone.

In the end, Mazda admitted that they indeed had made
a mistake (from memory, a 15hp gain ended up being 2hp).
As a result, all owners of affected models where offered
either buy-back, money, or extra warrantee.

I, for one, benefited because I was seriously thinking
of buying a miata so their hard work saved me lots of
heartache. Interestingly, I didn't read of any negative
posters turning down any of Mazda's remedies...

just my 2cent observation....

 

Sup ya'll! Merry MuthaF*&$%en X-mas! HOHOHOHO! Guess what Santa's has brought for us Maxima Owners? Some more F-ing headaches! Just great, I go to get my ride dynoed on monday, and the f-er working at that FORD ONLY dyno shop is like, " Why you wanna dyno a rice burner?" I was like WTF? I got ****ed off and drove off! Came back 2 hours later with my best friends TURBO ****EN CIVIC and spanked that Confederate flag wearing ***** back down Hickville! I swear man, there are some real wack jobs out there! Looking to dyno it at Inline Pro hopefully after NEW YEARS! I gotta call to find out more info, but it'll happen!
Now I really want those extra 15hpz! Cause once that happens, Alpine Developments SC, Y-pipe, JIC Full Exhaust, Injen Intake back on, JIC Coilovers, Sway bars, Strut bars, Camber Plates, Apex-i S-AFC, and all sorts of good shiet! Then we'll see what 82 leaded fuel mustang has! I'll be running circles around his ***! Merry X-Mas and a Happy New 2003! -DjCZR

 

Merry CHristmas!!! Santa, I would like my 15hp back!
Happy NEw Year too!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VQMAN
[B]

oxidizer....enough with the

we were just trying to understand how the process works, and no one can say for sure yet that Nissan screwed us out of 15 hp...but damn them if they did...

But the verdict is still out...that is why imjd and I were discussing how the dyno works. It DOES matter.

VERY unlikely you'll be getting your money back...VERY unlikely...be happy with a HP boost to get you to back to the claimed 255hp...if we can prove anything...



About the mpg concerns:

The mpg indication you see is not what you are getting at that given moment. It is an average from the last time you reset the mpg calculator.

I reset the mpg calculator while I was on the highway, drove conservatively for 10 miles and averaged 29.2 mpg.

you can reset it by toggling the "TRIP" button to the mpg, and then holding it down for a couple seconds until it starts flashing at you...do this on the highway, and drive like a normal person...I bet you yield better fuel economy than advertised.
my mpg shows 23 or 24 or even higher but when you divide miles by amount of gallons when you refuel i only get 19 or 20 mpg

 

There's no way that an Auto 2k3 Max can even touch the MPG I get in my TL-S. Not to start a post / flame war, but my friend (oxidizer) suggested I show up here and post some facts. So I will share some info here.

On the highway, I averaged 31.4 MPG over the last 16 months. City driving has also been above expectations for a 260 HP engine, reaching 22.7 MPG. Yesterday, just for the heck of it, I drove the car around the city pretty hard while running some errands. In around 81.6 miles of driving, I used up 3.981 gallons of gas, which translates to 20.5 MPG. This involved some quick racing and lots of hard acceleration.

Also, when you measure MPG, never use a trip computer or eyeball the fuel guage. Fill up the car, reset the trip meter, drive a good amount of miles to get a more accurate reading, and then fill it up again and see EXACTLY how much miles you traveled using EXACTLY how much gas. I have two close friends who own the 2k2/2k3 Max and its safe to say that the trip computer in the Max actually averages 4 more MPG than what you actually get.

Two more things, as a reply to some of the other posts. First, an auto 2k2/2k3 Max should be able to walk a TL-S regardless of anything because it weighs 300 lbs less and has more torque. Yet I have never lost to one (go figure). Ofcourse it probably all depends on the driver because the cars are so similar. Also, to the person who said that I actually paid more for my car, you are wrong. I spent $29,999 while my friend spend $31k for his loaded SE. But if I did pay more than some of you did, think of it like this: lower price is only to your advantage if you keep your car for 10 years. I will probably trade mine in if I see something better in the near future, so however much I paid extra I will take back in with better resale value.

Well, bottom line is my friend (oxidizer2k) is really ****ed off right now, and for valid reasons might I add. See if you guys can help him out. Best of luck on this HP issue as Nissan's long history of such bogus claims has deterred me from buying a Maxima on atleast two different occasions.

 

and what does MPG have to do with the sueing of 15 hp?

 

We're sorry that we, errr....Nissan has offended you and oxidizer,

BTW as an owner of a 2k3 Maxima, I can say that the main reason I didn't buy a TL-S, is because it didn't come w/6speed...you have a much better car...less torque, but a better built car...

If you got your TL-S for $29K, you must have practically NO options...

they were $32k at the dealer in KC, and they were not offering any discounts, however the sticker on my Maxima was $30k, and I got it for $28K at 4.9% for 60 months....they weren't offering special financing with the Acura either...that is another reason I didn't buy the Acura.

-vq

 

I hope we can get a settlement that includes a buy back...I would LOVE to be able to go and buy a G35 Coupe after they buy my Maxima back...

-vq

 

I visited 30 dealerships in about a dozen states over a 3 month span when I decided to get the TL-S (I checked out dealerships when I was visiting friends or vacationing around the country). I finally found the car I wanted in the right color, for the right price, for $29,999. All TL-S are fully loaded with the only option being the Nav, which I didn't have enough money to buy, by the way. The reason I got the car for so low was because I bought it just as it came (right off the truck with 7 miles on the odo) and I paid for it in cash. There are always costs associated with a car sitting on the lot before its sold and I believe I was able to take advantage of that.

 

with interest rates so low, why not invest that THIRTY LARGE in real estate, and take advantage of low financing? a bank or credit union would even get you at 5.5% these days...but I'm off topic again here...where is the moderator to cut me off with this WAAAY of subject posting...

wish I had that kinda cash...

-vq

 

yeah has anyone seen morgage rates

 

It's true... Last month, I test drove a TL-S with everything including NAV for $32,000 (without negotiation even, just pick
any fully loaded car)... Great deal for the money, but it was
too bland...

 

Vqman....for the tips on the trip meter. But the thing that still bothers me is that even when i fill up all the way, i drive about 325 miles or so, and its time to refuel. I think someone asked how mpg has to do anything with 15 hp. Well, they robbed us of 15hp and MPG. Thats why I brought it up. Also, someone said that buying a Tl-S for 29,999 like Vandy 786 did must have come with no options. Funny thing is, i think the only option that comes with that is either spolier or nav system. But i do think that is a damn good price for a TL-s. But i really do like the maxima, i am just ****ed nissan has a taste to lie to us money paying customers. And seeing how this is the most expensive car we have at home, that makes me mad to know we paid so much for nothing. Just something for you all to thing about. Peace.