New v2OBX headers?
Have you actually taken an AFR reading on your setup! I took a reading on my Cattman Headers and I'm runnning prefect in closed loop 14.5-14.9 and in WOT/open loop I was reading 12.2-12.6! These guys leaning their AFR out to 13.0 on up are gonna burn up their head gasket or break a valve due too the fatigue of the higher tempertures! 12.8 is considered best lean power AFR! 12.5 is Best mean power AFR, and 12.2 is best mean torque AFR! I found that a short ram gave my a richer mixture when stumping the gas than the Injen intake did it's initial WOT reading were 13.1 AFR then richens to a 12.5 -12.8. These are perfect readings in my book and I've always seen engine lean out due to intakes and exhaust rather than richen......???????
I'll test the AFR and go from there I guess...
do you have a baseline?
Have you actually taken an AFR reading on your setup! I took a reading on my Cattman Headers and I'm runnning prefect in closed loop 14.5-14.9 and in WOT/open loop I was reading 12.2-12.6! These guys leaning their AFR out to 13.0 on up are gonna burn up their head gasket or break a valve due too the fatigue of the higher tempertures! 12.8 is considered best lean power AFR! 12.5 is Best mean power AFR, and 12.2 is best mean torque AFR! I found that a short ram gave my a richer mixture when stumping the gas than the Injen intake did it's initial WOT reading were 13.1 AFR then richens to a 12.5 -12.8. These are perfect readings in my book and I've always seen engine lean out due to intakes and exhaust rather than richen......???????
Sooooo....You mean to tell me that the thousands of people that run a 13 to 13.5 baseline AFR are going to burn valves or blow head gaskets because they are too lean!!! Highly unlikely. I can see if they were in the 15+ range.
The reason why you are perfect in closed loop is because your E.C.U. makes it that way (keeping it as close to Stoichiometric as possible). And 12.2 to 12.6 in open loop is far from perfect.
Last edited by rroderiques77; May 14, 2009 at 08:58 PM.
Have you actually taken an AFR reading on your setup! I took a reading on my Cattman Headers and I'm runnning prefect in closed loop 14.5-14.9 and in WOT/open loop I was reading 12.2-12.6! These guys leaning their AFR out to 13.0 on up are gonna burn up their head gasket or break a valve due too the fatigue of the higher tempertures! 12.8 is considered best lean power AFR! 12.5 is Best mean power AFR, and 12.2 is best mean torque AFR! I found that a short ram gave my a richer mixture when stumping the gas than the Injen intake did it's initial WOT reading were 13.1 AFR then richens to a 12.5 -12.8. These are perfect readings in my book and I've always seen engine lean out due to intakes and exhaust rather than richen......???????
http://forums.maxima.org/all-motor/3...ing-n00bs.html
The reason why you are perfect in closed loop is because your E.C.U. makes it that way (keeping it as close to Stoichiometric as possible). And 12.2 to 12.6 in open loop is far from perfect.
Last edited by MoncefA33; May 14, 2009 at 09:19 PM.
Sooooo....You mean to tell me that the thousands of people that run a 13 to 13.5 baseline AFR are going to burn valves or blow head gaskets because they are too lean!!! Highly unlikely. I can see if they were in the 15+ range.
Just cause you and your friends eat Blue Bunny ice cream doesn't mean it's the best ice cream in the land. The perfect mixture for N/A engines @ WOT is 12.2-12.8 AFR for the mean best torque to lean best torque! Running 13.0 on up is very lean! Now my readings are taken at my header collector! Maybe yours are at your muffler tips! Anyhow good luck to you lean and mean, you're extra cooling (fuel) is missing and it's on the edge of the WOT unsafe side of the stoichiometric graph!
The reason why you are perfect in closed loop is because your E.C.U. makes it that way (keeping it as close to Stoichiometric as possible). And 12.2 to 12.6 in open loop is far from perfect.
Just cause you and your friends eat Blue Bunny ice cream doesn't mean it's the best ice cream in the land. The perfect mixture for N/A engines @ WOT is 12.2-12.8 AFR for the mean best torque to lean best torque! Running 13.0 on up is very lean! Now my readings are taken at my header collector! Maybe yours are at your muffler tips! Anyhow good luck to you lean and mean, you're extra cooling (fuel) is missing and it's on the edge of the WOT unsafe side of the stoichiometric graph!
The reason why you are perfect in closed loop is because your E.C.U. makes it that way (keeping it as close to Stoichiometric as possible). And 12.2 to 12.6 in open loop is far from perfect.
it!!!
DUH!!! That's why it's closed loop! But we got ppl telling folks if they don't tune their header installed rides that they will damage there cats/engine due too the rich AFR! Well unless their running around at WOT with this supposely over rich mixture (let me guess 12.5:1 AFR???) then you'll have to worry about damaging more then your cats/engine! As stated above if your in closed loop the ECU will keep you as close to 14.7 AFR @ idle and 14.5-14.9:1 @ cruise, and during decel goes up as high as 15.5-16.0:1, Medium(loading)acceleration in the neighborhood of 13.1:1! I can guarentee you that if we had to pull the lean mean heads and mine you'll notice my valves tulips are not pale white like your lean mean homies...anyway to each their own! For your info TS found the VQ35DE to be as rich as 10.5:1 @ WOT and close to it's redline! If I have too 13.0:1 will be the leanest I'll run @ WOT. But 12.2-12.8:1 is my target....Sorry Charlie!!! it!!!
it!!!Right...And you're the expert...
Keep talking. You have no clue what the inside of my valves look like and what AFR ratio my Wideband reads. 10.5:1 is not uncommon for an excessively rich VQ or for any other engine for that matter.
I don't really care what AFR ratio you are targeting. So put your money where your mouth is and show me some dynos big boy
I'm not the expert, Bob Norwood is...(If you know who that is) but I've been working on cars well b4 you were even conceived, and many other type of machines used for high speed transportation! I read and put to use what I learn with hands on experiences without all the trial and errors, and hate those that follow the others just because Jose', Felipe or Gonzo did! So thanks for your perspective or opinion, you know we all have one...I would love to show you ...something, and it would be about 1.5-2hrs of looking at my A$$ (licence plates..rear, of course!!!!) On a closed circuit road course or speedway driving WOT more than 60% of the time...then that skull would register the words coming out of my mouth!!! Good night ...Lil' Rod!
I'm not the expert, Bob Norwood is...(If you know who that is) but I've been working on cars well b4 you were even conceived, and many other type of machines used for high speed transportation! I read and put to use what I learn with hands on experiences without all the trial and errors, and hate those that follow the others just because Jose', Felipe or Gonzo did! So thanks for your perspective or opinion, you know we all have one...I would love to show you ...something, and it would be about 1.5-2hrs of looking at my A$$ (licence plates..rear, of course!!!!) On a closed circuit road course or speedway driving WOT more than 60% of the time...then that skull would register the words coming out of my mouth!!! Good night ...Lil' Rod!
Nothing wrong with trial and error. Some of the most intelligent men on earth have tried new things and erred in the process. You, being tech, should know this.
Last edited by rroderiques77; May 15, 2009 at 07:05 AM.
It just kills me that I've got some individual tellling me that he doesn't jump on bandwagons when he himself did it, i.e. 3.5 swap. And that he "learns with hands on experiences without all the trial and errors".
Life is an experience, full of trial and error.
And, I doubt that, in a closed circuit road, I would spend any time looking at the rear of your 14 secnd Hotrod!!!
Life is an experience, full of trial and error.
And, I doubt that, in a closed circuit road, I would spend any time looking at the rear of your 14 secnd Hotrod!!!
Safc, Vafc, Emanage Blue, Emanage Ultimate, Vmanage ultimate, UTEC, any kind of piggy back ecu... but yes i think it has to stay connected or else the default settings will return upon removal
So what's the difference between a VAFC and a SAFC? I thought the VAFC was used for some other type of tune. They're both Apex i so what's the difference?
SAFC = Super air flow converter
Basically VAFC=SAFC with the exception of having control over the vtec changeover point on Honda vehicles.
Not really useful except for us 4th gen guys who use that built in rpm switch to control the switchover point for the variable manifold when we swap in the 2000-2001 DEK manifold.
Vtec really... moreso made for a honda......... but it's technically the samething
FYI, technosquare states on their website that they use 12.5 to 1 as an baseline a/f ratio(at WOT).... im sure you can go leaner, but really how safe is it long term to run 13.5 to 1 at WOT. im sure going closer to 13.0 to 1 isnt going to harm anything, but when you start getting close to 14.0 to 1 you are rolling the dice in my opinion...... and if you do run that lean, you should prob have a very close watch on your coolant temp, as well as EGT's
Last edited by allblackmax96; May 15, 2009 at 03:13 PM.
nissan didnt program the oem computer to be full performance with perfect a/f ratios. they compromised between efficencey, performance and reliability.
i dont believe that every car would perform to its best the same a/f. each mod will affect the long and short term fuel trim differently, and so will driving styles.obviously you want to run richer with boosted applications or with nitrous(for risk of detontation). but it seems to be that most n/a cars are running best (safely) between 12 and 13 to 1.
i dont believe that every car would perform to its best the same a/f. each mod will affect the long and short term fuel trim differently, and so will driving styles.obviously you want to run richer with boosted applications or with nitrous(for risk of detontation). but it seems to be that most n/a cars are running best (safely) between 12 and 13 to 1.
for normal cruising around you should be at 14.7, but for WOT it depends on your preferences. I tuned at 12.2 WOT to help with cooling down the internal temerature, lean equals hotter, and since our engines are prone to pinging, a cooler AFR is more preferable for me.
Does anyone know how much of a horsepower increase can be seen by leaning out from 12.2 to say 13? are we talking 1 or 2? Or something more substantial?
Does anyone know how much of a horsepower increase can be seen by leaning out from 12.2 to say 13? are we talking 1 or 2? Or something more substantial?
when i had my old motor i dynoed with nitrous(zex wet 75) and by going from the 75 shot fuel jet to the 65 i gained 10 ft pounds and 2 whp.which was a trial and error thing that seemed to have worked,but im not sure on the a/f, i know for a fact it leaned but,but when we were dynoing we only had the tailpipe sniffer as an a/f meter,so i really wasnt sure how lean it exactly got, but leaning out did gain those numbers(with nitrous at least)
and on these headers as a review,awsome minus the nasty bee's in the can from the flex pipe which i wrapped in header wrap and it helped quite a bit. i could prob get a sound clip/video clip if anyone is interested...
and on these headers as a review,awsome minus the nasty bee's in the can from the flex pipe which i wrapped in header wrap and it helped quite a bit. i could prob get a sound clip/video clip if anyone is interested...
man i wish i had my 2K right about now
thnks..i got enuff in the bank..so im ok...i hope to be workn soon!
Well, i've installed 3 of these. 2 5.5 gens and 1 5th gen.
In all 3 installs, I never cut or grinded ANYTHING.
These headers fit 100% perfect with the exception being the rear 02 location issue. I believe OBX would have been King of all headers with this design if they just put the bung 90 degrees over on the pipe or something.
The headers come close to the point where they seem to even rest against the xmember, but on all 3 applications, no hitting, banging or anything to the headers or xmember even months after install.
If it were not for that 02 sensor issue, this would be a completey DIY job. If you get sims (which is more money spent that isnt even necessary, because the cost of a shop relocating a bung is cheaper than 2 02 sims, or a double sim), then you can go ahead and follow what everyone is saying here and just extend the primary, put it in a secondary hole, and eliminate the secondaries. but for those who got it to fit in between the rack and the header, there may be issues if those motor mounts start to really break in. One good engine rock and the SES makes an appearance and hopefully a broken o2 rather than a hole in the headers where the o2 was.
I've responded to a few old posts in hopes of clearing some things up. If there are any questions feel free.
Oh and the front 02 connector should reach fine, it's not taught enough to cause issues. And the engine harness and 02 rock together anyway.
This sucked ***! There are 4 bungs, 2 primary, 2 secondary. That's pretty much standard on every 2000-2003. There were no extras.
I seriously dont understand how you got that to fit in there^^^. I just did my 3rd install on a 5th gen. I tried. I removed the shield and everything. The very SECOND one of your lower motor mounts go, that rear o2 sensor is GONE.
Again, I don't see how you got that 02 in there. I take it you got rid of the secondaries and just put the rear primary in the bung for one of the secondaries.
My grinder was never touched, the header is almost resting against the xmember, but had someone give it throttle, motor was solid, nothing made noise or banged against the xmember. Not sure it's a necessary step, but for those who want peace of mind, go for it. Again, I didn't find it necessary at all.
Honestly, with my 3 experiences....these headers are a perfect fit with the exception of this one step ^^.
In all 3 installs, I never cut or grinded ANYTHING.
These headers fit 100% perfect with the exception being the rear 02 location issue. I believe OBX would have been King of all headers with this design if they just put the bung 90 degrees over on the pipe or something.
The headers come close to the point where they seem to even rest against the xmember, but on all 3 applications, no hitting, banging or anything to the headers or xmember even months after install.
If it were not for that 02 sensor issue, this would be a completey DIY job. If you get sims (which is more money spent that isnt even necessary, because the cost of a shop relocating a bung is cheaper than 2 02 sims, or a double sim), then you can go ahead and follow what everyone is saying here and just extend the primary, put it in a secondary hole, and eliminate the secondaries. but for those who got it to fit in between the rack and the header, there may be issues if those motor mounts start to really break in. One good engine rock and the SES makes an appearance and hopefully a broken o2 rather than a hole in the headers where the o2 was.
I've responded to a few old posts in hopes of clearing some things up. If there are any questions feel free.
Oh and the front 02 connector should reach fine, it's not taught enough to cause issues. And the engine harness and 02 rock together anyway.
I think we're all interested in the install and fit issues. Such as the following:
- O2 sensor lengthening Rear 02, has to be relocated and extended a to reach the connector.
- Frame\crossmember modification. NONE
- Any issues not mentioned in descriptions given by previous installers. Just Rear 02 is impossible. (Literally)
- Issues encountered during installation of the rear manifold\Y pipe combination. Perfect
1. THE F**KED UP DESIGNED REAR HEADER MANIFOLD/YPIPE HAS THE O2 BUNG LOCATED IN THE WRONG POSITION. IT'S LOCATED @ THE REAR HEADER PRIMARY TUBE COLLECTOR AND IT IS FACING REARWARD PLACING THE O2 IN BETWEEN THE RACK & SWAYBAR, THIS THE ONLY ONE (1) BUNG THAT NEEDS TO BE RELOCATED or>
2. Plug the rear facing one and Install the sensor into the next bung down stream from it (extending the Primary O2 harness even further), and plug the next bung @ the 180 degree bend! Yeah that'll work without welding an extra bung! was't thinking about that...now the secondaries will have to be tucked up and hidden! Buy some bung plugs 2 each! I wasn't looking at it from this perpspective!
2. Plug the rear facing one and Install the sensor into the next bung down stream from it (extending the Primary O2 harness even further), and plug the next bung @ the 180 degree bend! Yeah that'll work without welding an extra bung! was't thinking about that...now the secondaries will have to be tucked up and hidden! Buy some bung plugs 2 each! I wasn't looking at it from this perpspective!
Ok I installed mine Sunday...here's my impressions of them.
1. INSTALL The install was pretty straightforward especially with the info some people have posted about where to grind. I only had to grind the rear motor mount and the subframe but I still have all 4 bolts in mine...lol. I relocated the O2 sensor just to the right of the location on the headers and filled in the two secondary holes with what else...old O2 sensors!!! Then I welded a bolt onto the rear primary hole. After all the grinding and what not the rear header/y-pipe really isn't that hard to manuever up on the head, it's not heavy or anything either.
1. INSTALL The install was pretty straightforward especially with the info some people have posted about where to grind. I only had to grind the rear motor mount and the subframe but I still have all 4 bolts in mine...lol. I relocated the O2 sensor just to the right of the location on the headers and filled in the two secondary holes with what else...old O2 sensors!!! Then I welded a bolt onto the rear primary hole. After all the grinding and what not the rear header/y-pipe really isn't that hard to manuever up on the head, it's not heavy or anything either.
Honestly, with my 3 experiences....these headers are a perfect fit with the exception of this one step ^^.
Tremendous response. 3 installs! Very helpful to all. Thanks for your contribution!
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdown3
I think we're all interested in the install and fit issues. Such as the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdown3
I think we're all interested in the install and fit issues. Such as the following:
- O2 sensor lengthening Rear 02, has to be relocated and extended a to reach the connector.
- Frame\crossmember modification. NONE
- Any issues not mentioned in descriptions given by previous installers. Just Rear 02 is impossible. (Literally)
- Issues encountered during installation of the rear manifold\Y pipe combination. Perfect
That'S weird that you never mentioned the grinding of the rear motor mount.....??? It's no where close to perfect fit....the Xmember will take out your flex section soon or later cause it's gonna move around even just a little, especially during accelerating!